What will you use your Pyra for?

[Tahatch Bearwolf]

I don't think anyone is going to provide an argument that isn't going to have someone providing some half ass solution that involves emulation or reverse engineering rather than the benefits of natively running. (No offense there Stan)


The desire of people wanting it I'm 100% certain is running a native windows and all the software you can run on a windows tablet and the like in a form factor not even close to being available in normal mobile windows device.


However you could in theory use a open source boot loader to stand in the middle of the boot process instead of the windows boot manager. I had to do something similar to disrupt the normal windows boot process to get it to boot off removable media correctly some time ago.


Grub is a good example of something that has worked in the past to do exactly what you would need, but heard it doesn't work with uefi which all these x86 soc's use. Efilinux is a uefi os loader and could potentially do the same thing as grub used to in that respect. Dont know of any x86 soc device that only provides linux support and not windows so hard to find details or examples of proofs of concept. Grub and the like works similarly to the way uboot works for arm. It doesn't exactly care what OS you're loading into even though it gets lots of Linux love. Its the way you get Linux to boot on x86 tabs that only have windows support so I'm sure it would work in reverse.


Completely moot point in any foreseeable future though, because I see a extremely slim chance of this being $$ invested in when the primary desire being running software other than Linux from the majority of those that might want it. Can't even get them to invest on the software side for a solid android build and that's only software development and a large chunk of the work is already handed to them. Anyway....


Sorry for sounding salty, or the rambling, having a bad day. But that would be the answer to that problem I think.

I agree with a much as I was able to understand of what you said and hope to be a contributor before too long, since the whole Pandora development has been the only one I see moving in the right direction to give people what they really want instead of just telling them what to want instead, like the big companies do. I'm just too broke at the moment.

 

[SNESFAN]

They give you what you want as long as its what the people with the skill, time, and resources want also. Being a minority in desire (see more mainstream) here is especially non advantageous because in most situations the only thing you have to offer is money and from perception most with skill in this community are not driven by money at the scale you would be offering to have your desires met.


Not to mention the rage face some people make at the thought of supporting something officially that is anything other than arm or linux.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

It's the same thing on the other side.  Current laptops, tablets, surface pro series and the like all have rage face at the thought of supporting linux officially...

 

[Grench]

I want to install winxp

Simply having an x86 chip would not be enough. I have forgotten the specifics but I remember some debate about getting Windows to run on a SoC and it was not something that would be easy to do, the boot process is completely different.
Installing x86 Linux systems like Ubuntu would be pretty easy because it doesn't care much about the boot process and what it does care about we have the source for and can fix.


So right from the start your idea that "if it was just X86 it would do everything I want and more" is flawed.


That being said, on your list: Diablo 2 runs on the Pandora with some frame skipping, arguably well enough to actually play and there's every reason to believe the Pyra will be able to close the gap; Ditto for Morrowind, and if not the actual game in emulation then OpenMW should be a good second choice; can't speak for disciples, mtg, or halo, but the Pandora already has many flavours of Doom that can run all kinds of different mods so you won't be lacking there. Plus all the emulators that already exist and will continue to be expanded upon. And all the rest except the webcam are already built into it of course.


So the question still stands: what is it that you want it to do that you think requires an x86 processor

Well, like I say, I dont really know the how so much as the what of what I want. As for games, yeah pandora already does a lot, but with a little more power and the right architecture and os it could run everything I love, though other than getting prefab little itx boards and adding components in a neat little folding case I have no idea how to do it myself and am prepared to pay for that expertise being handled for me. But I have listed what I want it to do with the gadget twice now, shall I compose a list of every program I wish to install? Basically, there are programs I need for work and play that while old and not too demanding on systems yet are just demanding enough to make running them through emus pointless and most of them are not available on ubuntu or an form of lynux that I know of.

Linux not lynux.  Clearly you're ignorant when it comes to alternate OS's.  We can help with that.

x86/ARM debate aside, Windows does suck... 

I agree as far as all new versions (though I give a little love to w7 - if customized) but my little lean stripped down no nonsense customized version of xp is still a dream come true for me and does all I have the brains to handle and with very little resource draw.

You are actually a perfect candidate for a Linux test drive.  May I recommend that you download the ISO for Debian Jessie (Testing), record it to a DVD or even better a USB stick, boot from that (it will be slow - remember the media you're booting from), and give it a quick whirl?  I think you'll be shocked at how -good- Linux really is these days.

Then take a recently retired 5-6 year old computer that you can buy anywhere for <=$200, install Linux Debian Jessie on it and USE it.  I fully expect it to blow your mind.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

^ Yeah, Grench convinced me the same thing.  Forgot what thread it was.  But I've never looked back again

Recently, my immediate boss is a computer illeterate, spoke to me about throwing his Core 2 Duo Dell deskop away.  He said he has windows xp on it and it runs so slow.  So I told him if he minds giving linux a try before he junks it and he agreed.  I put Linux Mint XFCE on it as it is more user friendly than Debian.  He was amazed of how good and fast it was  and his machine stops making these noises under windows.  He now wants Mint on his laptop   I used to hate him, but now I like him a little more

I'm slowly brainwashing him into the Open Source universe.

 

[_jr_]

In my experience laptops are more difficult than desktops (at leat out of the box). Most laptop gimmicks (fingerprint sensor, camera, etc.) are not supported and in quite a lot of cases there won't even be sound, wireless connectivity or adequate graphics acceleration (including video decoding, which on old laptops is quite noticeable like on the Pnadora). IMO that's still better than windows, but most windows users will probably not agree

 

[WizardStan]

shall I compose a list of every program I wish to install?

No, just those that you are absolutely certain need an x86 processor running Windows and are quite certain are too demanding to run through a PC emulator. It really only takes one. I'm trying to be helpful here. You aren't getting an x86 processor in a Pandora form factor any time soon and even if you did odds are it wouldn't be able to run Windows anyway, so you may as well accept it and try to find alternatives to the things you want to run on it.

 

[SNESFAN]

It's the same thing on the other side. Current laptops, tablets, surface pro series and the like all have rage face at the thought of supporting linux officially...

I don't feel that's true. A company might not offer official support, but the unofficial support communities are usually the ones fighting for or attempting to provide that support. In fact I'd argue that it is the trend of companies (software and hardware) to provide official support of alternate OS's more than ever before. I don't see too many rage faces because of this. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places though. My thoughts on it don't quite understand the opposition so maybe I'm attempting to confirm my own bias by not seeing or overlooking these cases, but I challenge you to find a place where additional support or alternative OS's are actively voiced against from the community supporting it.

Here the community is drawn upon as the primary means of support, and overwhelming percentage of available software, and has an above normal influence on the actions of the company its supporting.

 

[rygD]

Then take a recently retired 5-6 year old computer that you can buy anywhere

If they find they like it I recommend repartitioning the HDD and dual booting.  This is still probably the case:

I fully expect it to blow your mind.

Most laptop gimmicks (fingerprint sensor, camera, etc.) are not supported

I dislike such things, so I haven't tested them.  This one has a camera, but it has a sticky note covering it.  I suppose I could check, but I probably won't.

in quite a lot of cases there won't even be sound, wireless connectivity

Several years ago this was true in my experience, but since 07 or so I can't recall having any issues with current versions.

I typically stick with laptops, and my first laptop install in 99 or 00 didn't go smoothly at all.  Things have gotten much better since then, to the point where most times I just install the OS and it works.

IMO that's still better than windows, but most windows users will probably not agree

I think Linux still requires a bit more dedication and knowledge than a typical Windows users has.  The average Windows user doesn't seem to know much about how things work, which is pretty unfortunate.  There are Linux distros that will allow people to do everything without really knowing anything, and just sticking to the GUI.

As for the rage faces, I will make mine if there is no BSD on Pyra if Linux continues to go downhill (imo).  Hopefully I (or others with more skills) will be able to make sure this happens.  Then again, there are other alternatives I want to look at.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

It's the same thing on the other side. Current laptops, tablets, surface pro series and the like all have rage face at the thought of supporting linux officially...

I don't feel that's true. A company might not offer official support, but the unofficial support communities are usually the ones fighting for or attempting to provide that support. In fact I'd argue that it is the trend of companies (software and hardware) to provide official support of alternate OS's more than ever before. I don't see too many rage faces because of this. Maybe I'm not looking in the right places though. My thoughts on it don't quite understand the opposition so maybe I'm attempting to confirm my own bias by not seeing or overlooking these cases, but I challenge you to find a place where additional support or alternative OS's are actively voiced against from the community supporting it.

Here the community is drawn upon as the primary means of support, and overwhelming percentage of available software, and has an above normal influence on the actions of the company its supporting.

Well, that's the problem right there.  Linux has to depend on community to hack around to make things work as there is no official support from hardware makers.  Even if so, it is still just an afterthought.

 

[SNESFAN]

Completely valid, but doesn't contradict anything I said. You responded to me as if other communities were as closed minded as this one when it comes to opposing official support of other options.


Yes it is an entirely different problem, one of less representation, but the only way in which the two are similar.


My argument was in addition to being a minority of desire to use, there are no advocation against those other options in those communities like there are here, and those opinions have much more weight.


Edit


Have you ever seen a thread in a windows/android/osx/ios forum where a member is asking for Linux drivers or support and a bunch of people come along as say things like "Linux sucks" or "don't make me pay for something I personally won't use?" (In regards to added development cost), "give me an option to NOT have that OS option bundled" etc?

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

I guess we've crossed each other in cyber space as I was referring to hardware makers that don't give a crap about linux, and you were referring to some people in this community that don't give a shit about Windows.

Anyhow, more options on the Pyra is better as long as it won't drive the cost up the roof and take Two MonthsTM to make it.

 

[_jr_]

Edit


Have you ever seen a thread in a windows/android/osx/ios forum where a member is asking for Linux drivers or support and a bunch of people come along as say things like "Linux sucks" or "don't make me pay for something I personally won't use?" (In regards to added development cost), "give me an option to NOT have that OS option bundled" etc?

Obviously I don't frequent any Android/Windows/iOS forums, but I like imagining to live in a world where any sane member of such a forum would question propositions of changing the project in a way that hasn't been shown to not noticably increase per unit price or development time or even potentially impact project success. And 'if it only were X86' is exactly such a proposition and rightfully questioning is what wizardstan did. Besides a comparison of Pandora users with customers of multi billion dollar companies that sell millions of units isn't really helpful, because it gives the impression that ED's options were somehow comparable to Apple's.

 

[Glyph Reader]

Edit


Have you ever seen a thread in a windows/android/osx/ios forum where a member is asking for Linux drivers or support and a bunch of people come along as say things like "Linux sucks" or "don't make me pay for something I personally won't use?" (In regards to added development cost), "give me an option to NOT have that OS option bundled" etc?

Obviously I don't frequent any Android/Windows/iOS forums, but I like imagining to live in a world where any sane member of such a forum would question propositions of changing the project in a way that hasn't been shown to not noticably increase per unit price or development time or even potentially impact project success. And 'if it only were X86' is exactly such a proposition and rightfully questioning is what wizardstan did. Besides a comparison of Pandora users with customers of multi billion dollar companies that sell millions of units isn't really helpful, because it gives the impression that ED's options were somehow comparable to Apple's.

I wish his options were actually comparable to Apple's...

Sadly though, there are quite a few not so sane members of said forums that don't question such things.  

-Glyph Reader

 

[SNESFAN]

I will agree that the majority of users are idiots, their fanboy repsonces come down to little more than superficial preference rather than actually understanding the limitations and benefits of their preference they act like they understand.


Unlikely would they question or spit hate in an actual technical conversation, that's probably why those threads don't exist anywhere but places like this.


I just wish people here (where these kinds of conversations exist) were more sympathetic to other peoples preferences rather than seeing those preferences as threats to their own. (What I feel it ultimately stems from)

 

[TrashyMG]

I still haven't seen any real response to why Windows doesn't suck.

 

[Glyph Reader]

I still haven't seen any real response to why Windows doesn't suck.

The only real reason I use Windows is for its collection of games.  Luckily, there is a good bit of progress for multi-platform and Linux-only games, so I may be able to rid myself of Windows someday.  I use Desmume quite a bit, but I haven't had much luck with the Linux version of it.  Are there any x86/x64 DS emulators that work better then Desmume for Linux?  

-Glyph Reader

 

[SNESFAN]

I still haven't seen any real response to why Windows doesn't suck.

I don't feel the need to defend something I use. I use it, it has utility that isn't met elsewhere. Same thing for Linux. Why does a screw driver suck when you need a hammer?

 

[pmprog]

I think you'll be shocked at how -good- Linux really is these days

Yes, you could be like me and spend an entire day trying to work out why it won't play audio through the HDMI cable on the Revo attached to my TV.
After reading dozens of websites talking about typing device names into text files that you have no idea if you're doing it right. I finally got it to play, but only through certain pieces of software. If somebody asked me to set it up again, or without internet access, I probably couldn't do it.

The box now has Windows back on...

Don't get me wrong, I don't mind Linux, and some things I much prefer it for, but damn, trying to configure things, especially just typing in text files is not the easiest thing to do.

 

[TrashyMG]

Wow didn't expect to real responses to my obviously satirized post.