Your requests for Pyra videos

second exodous

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Why?

1. Why build an image with a bunch of stuff most will swap out anyway
2. Just because you are ok with it coming with a bunch of stuff you will never use, doesn't mean we all are. I will use xfce, or lxde, others want mate. I like Pale Moon or Qupzilla, i don't want firefox esr. I have never used cups on the Pandora..i could go on.
3. Justifications like yours are used to fill android phones with crap.
4. I like my OSs clean and streamlined, regardless of space available, otherwise it is wasted space.
I tend to agree with this. Ever since I installed a clean copy of Windows on my first Packard Bell desktop and saw how much better it ran without bloat ware I am against overloading a default OS.

Linux is never loaded down with bloat ware but for me it is always better having clean menus to load up with what I use. Yes, things can be taken away but the more minimal from the start the better.

Android actually makes me mad, it is like buying a prebuilt PC in the 90s! Also, it seems you play a cat and mouse game getting things off and keeping them off.
 

levi

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I'd advise anyone expecting a minimal environment from the get-go to moderate their expectations in this direction. This is debian we're talking about, and in my experience debian with gnome 2 back in the day, it'll ship with a webcam app (cheese) and image viewer (gpicview), but a crippled build environment. It may be difficult to thin things back after the initial release as well, as long as any dbps are built which quietly depend on libs shipped with any of the apps you want to remove.

If you're bothered about chunky menus, you can always delete the .desktop files from /usr/share/applications although that will result in corrupted packages which might make upgrading tricky, I'm not familiar with dpkg's peculiarities these days.
 

Grench

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Why?

1. Why build an image with a bunch of stuff most will swap out anyway
2. Just because you are ok with it coming with a bunch of stuff you will never use, doesn't mean we all are. I will use xfce, or lxde, others want mate. I like Pale Moon or Qupzilla, i don't want firefox esr. I have never used cups on the Pandora..i could go on.
3. Justifications like yours are used to fill android phones with crap.
4. I like my OSs clean and streamlined, regardless of space available, otherwise it is wasted space.
Sheesh - I wasn't advocating for loading the Pyra up with paid-placement non-removable crapware.

The shipped image SHOULD, however, have everything needed for a NOVICE user to be up and running when opening the device. At minimum, this should include The Gimp, LibreOffice, FireFox or similar web browser, VLC or similar video player, Audacious or similar audio player, the Pyra software repository client, and a big fat icon on the desktop containing a script to install the non-free codecs.

For those such as yourself who want to start with a truly blank slate, you'll want to install your own OS anyway. You may even want to compile your own. Nothing to stop you.

In this, though, we really DO need to cater a bit to the novice Linux user and spoon feed them just a bit of functionality to get them going. The veteran Linux users, with scars plenty, can download an .iso file, create a USB or SD bootable media and go wild with their own customizations.
[doublepost=1523988106,1523987877][/doublepost]
I'd advise anyone expecting a minimal environment from the get-go to moderate their expectations in this direction. This is debian we're talking about, and in my experience debian with gnome 2 back in the day, it'll ship with a webcam app (cheese) and image viewer (gpicview), but a crippled build environment. It may be difficult to thin things back after the initial release as well, as long as any dbps are built which quietly depend on libs shipped with any of the apps you want to remove.

If you're bothered about chunky menus, you can always delete the .desktop files from /usr/share/applications although that will result in corrupted packages which might make upgrading tricky, I'm not familiar with dpkg's peculiarities these days.
Which applications you get 'preloaded' in Debian depends 100% on which DE package you install. It is perfectly possible to install base command-line Debian without any graphical DE then install JUST the DE(s) that you want.

Each DE group governs what 'other' software installs with their DE. It isn't a 'Debian thing'. It is a 'Desktop Environment' thing.
 

levi

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True, I'm probably a little spoilt these days as an arch user, where I'm currently running an openbox installation where very few of the desktop backdrop right click menu actually work - I should look into how to configure that one of these days. Sure, I expect Fedora and some of the other mid-legacy distros to work the same as debian, I just don't consider then as as important as debian has been and is, so I call that model of system setup to be the debian style.

P.S. The file to edit seems to be /etc/xdg/openbox/menu.xml
 

second exodous

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I'd advise anyone expecting a minimal environment from the get-go to moderate their expectations in this direction. This is debian we're talking about, and in my experience debian with gnome 2 back in the day, it'll ship with a webcam app (cheese) and image viewer (gpicview), but a crippled build environment. It may be difficult to thin things back after the initial release as well, as long as any dbps are built which quietly depend on libs shipped with any of the apps you want to remove.

If you're bothered about chunky menus, you can always delete the .desktop files from /usr/share/applications although that will result in corrupted packages which might make upgrading tricky, I'm not familiar with dpkg's peculiarities these days.
I don't think I have used a over loaded distro in a while but I meant let's not go crazy on the programs (almost said apps there). I think mint comes with the most of what I can remember and that is boarder line, it comes with a lot of stuff most people that use it don't use. The default Debi an install is nice. I was just gearing up for what I thought was people saying they want this ad that and so on.
 

Askarus

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I was shocked to see the Pyra Prototype having LibreOffice and Gimp installed.
Why should that be?
That's nothing essential for the user.

An other thing was I tried out Manjaro Linux.
I was expecting to get Arch with some Additions.
I got Arch with a lot of crap installed I did not want.
Steam was pre-installed. Why??
XFCE also looks different than XFCE on my plain ARCH?

I really like to be as plain as possible.
All drivers and such should be installed. When it comes to programs I don't know whether it's common to ship some or not.
Maybe I'm just used to Arch and the need to install everything on my own.
 

ible

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we should definitely balance size of included distro+software with ease-of-use for a linux noob. just to note, expert users can uninstall things (like libreoffice/gimp). and linux doesn't bloat in the sense that it runs slower with these extra programs, they just take up space.

it's the same reason i don't advocate for having my favorite window manager installed by default; i can easily install it myself, and believe there should be sane defaults.
 

Swordfish II

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Sheesh - I wasn't advocating for loading the Pyra up with paid-placement non-removable crapware.

The shipped image SHOULD, however, have everything needed for a NOVICE user to be up and running when opening the device. At minimum, this should include The Gimp, LibreOffice, FireFox or similar web browser, VLC or similar video player, Audacious or similar audio player, the Pyra software repository client, and a big fat icon on the desktop containing a script to install the non-free codecs.

For those such as yourself who want to start with a truly blank slate, you'll want to install your own OS anyway. You may even want to compile your own. Nothing to stop you.

In this, though, we really DO need to cater a bit to the novice Linux user and spoon feed them just a bit of functionality to get them going. The veteran Linux users, with scars plenty, can download an .iso file, create a USB or SD bootable media and go wild with their own customizations.
[doublepost=1523988106,1523987877][/doublepost]

Which applications you get 'preloaded' in Debian depends 100% on which DE package you install. It is perfectly possible to install base command-line Debian without any graphical DE then install JUST the DE(s) that you want.

Each DE group governs what 'other' software installs with their DE. It isn't a 'Debian thing'. It is a 'Desktop Environment' thing.
That's the thing though. Are most pyra purchasers novice? It is a very niche item, with very knowledgeable user base. With Angstrom, which is finicky (and stuck on an old kernel) it made sense to preload, but debian is pretty main stream.

I agree it should come with a DE, repo link and codecs, also network-manager but that should be it imo. Then anything wanted could be easily installed from the repo.
 

Grench

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That's the thing though. Are most pyra purchasers novice? It is a very niche item, with very knowledgeable user base. With Angstrom, which is finicky (and stuck on an old kernel) it made sense to preload, but debian is pretty main stream.

I agree it should come with a DE, repo link and codecs, also network-manager but that should be it imo. Then anything wanted could be easily installed from the repo.
But - we're talking about the default shipping install here. It must be to the 'lowest common denominator' (I.e. an iPhone toting reviewer) and not to the level of the Linux veteran.

No matter what gets installed by default - even 'just the DE', the Linux 'enthusiast' or 'veteran' will reinstall to what they want - and likely enjoy doing it.

By comparison, the newbie/neophyte/iPhonereviewer who picks up the thing will immediately proclaim it useless and unusable if there is not a pre-installed set of basic applications.

Regardless of how it is set up by default, you (and me) and many others are likely just going to dump the pre-load image and start over from at or near a command line install. More power to you/me/us in that.

So, the inconvenience of pre-loaded basic functional applications to the 'power Linux user' is zero. The inconvenience for a neophyte or iPhone reviewer is 'catastrophic' and insurmountable.

Yeah, I know - they could open up the package manager or type in apt-get blah from the command line. BUT assume they don't know that - or anything else. THAT is why every DE that you install as a 'default package' within Debian, Mint, Ubuntu, etc - ALL of them default to include a set of applications to get the NEW user up and running.

You could argue all day about which applications are 'best' and that 'choice' is paramount. But if your choice is to default to 'none', that is an incredibly self-serving and selfish point of view. We as a community not only -want- but we -need- the new-to-Linux users to feel like they can 'do something' with the device. And no, none of them are likely to RTFM before they go off and give a crap-blasting 'review' of the device they paid hundreds for that 'isn't good for anything'.
 

NetBLOKS

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I second Grench´s opinion.
It is easier for us to uninstall stuff or reinstall the entire OS than to get going for a newbie.

A basic set of software (just by popularity):
- Firefox
- Thunderbird
- LibreOffice
- Network manager
- DEs file manager
- DEs Terminal
- Preconfigured keymap and keys like Pyra-button etc
will do wonders for acceptance.
I know, there maybe other choices like Palemoon, Evolution or whatever, it´s just a recognizable set of software and it´s easy to remove if not liked.
Sure, the Pyra is a niche device, but I intend to have friends and family buy it too and even customers of mine to do so, who are mostly Windows Admins but crave for a tool like the Pyra.
They need to start somewhere too and are not used to "read first, do stuff second" ;-)
I was happy back in the days, to have a browser preinstalled on my first Linux distro to at least be able to google the stuff I didn´t know.
And withoud Network manager, most people would not even be able to connect the device to their WLAN.
 
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second exodous

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I second Grench´s opinion.
It is easier for us to uninstall stuff or reinstall the entire OS than to get going for a newbie.

A basic set of software (just by popularity):
- Firefox
- Thunderbird
- LibreOffice
- Network manager
- DEs file manager
- DEs Terminal
- Preconfigured keymap and keys like Pyra-button etc will do wonders for acceptance.
That is a pretty nice list, as long as it all runs really well. If a program doesn't run well, even if it should come on a basic install, it shouldn't be on the units sent out to review or even be I installed by default. If libre office doesn't load quickly maybe have a word processor that is a little bit more slim.

Most reviewers seem to be 4 year Olds in a 20 or 30 year old body that have never even seen a desktop PC and has no idea what even a file system is. I swear these sites need to look really hard for these people, it needs to be a requirement that they have never used technology of any kind like they were raised by wolves or something. I really don't think Pyra will get a fair review but if the programs at least open quickly and work they can't complain there.
 

OppositeDay

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It's obviously important to cater to newbies, but I think we still have enough eMMC space to include a few useful things for developers as well. For one, I think it makes a lot of sense to include in the default distribution a copy of the kernel sources and .config file corresponding to the kernel binary provided by the distribution, maybe along with a second standalone kernel binary with everything compiled in (with =y instead of =m) to make the process of OS customization as painless as possible.
 

levi

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I was shocked to see the Pyra Prototype having LibreOffice and Gimp installed.
Why should that be?
That's weird, and I hope that won't be the case when we finally get our Pandora. I mean, I do use Libreoffice relatively often for word processing and spreadsheeting, but for word processing plenty of people might prefer Abiword or Focuswriter or Apache's OpenOffice fork. And having the Gimp installed by default just seems weird.

In my experience debian with a gnome install hooks in a few gnome apps I'm not a big fan of, but nothing to the scale of Libreoffice or Gimp.
 

NetBLOKS

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I understand, that not anybody will like the preinstalled software, but it's about creating a well known and usable desktop out of the box.
And I really hope we can agree on not calling everything bloatware, just because we don't want it preinstalled.
"The scale" of LibreOffice or Gimp should really not be an issue with 32 GB storage.
People will search for their known icons for doing stuff and feeling a bit at home.
After some time, they will experiment, but until then, let's give them a hand.
Regarding the starting time of LibreOffice, it was quite fast, even on the SD booted prototype of Askarus.
I would also include a software center like the one in Cinnamon or Gnome for easy management. It's always good to show starters an "App Store"where they can get everything. The feedback has always been positive by noobs.
But as with anything else:
ED will have to make the last call.
 

ClockworkCoder

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I also feel that I'd prefer a minimal installation, but agree that the initial setup needs to be beginner friendly.

LibreOffice is an arguably good choice for most, but Gimp is notoriously hard to use, is it not? (I spent the longest time grieving Photoshop when I moved to Linux full time).

I strongly believe that choice is the biggest single benefit of Linux, and by preinstalling "common" apps, we're both making assumptions about how it may be used (ie as a games emulator, portable computer, etc), and removing the choice (you get it if you like it or not) from the beginners that we're trying to help.

Would it be such a bad idea to have a few icons to allow users to easily install specific apps that they may want to use? Or just point them to the package manager?
 

WizardStan

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but Gimp is notoriously hard to use, is it not?
I don't agree. The only people that I've heard with problems with it are Photoshop users that lament that it's not photoshop. If you've never used image editing software before then it's fairly intuitive for basic tasks, no harder than Photoshop for the same inexperienced user at any rate.
Admittedly, it is very powerful and for that reason could be considered daunting or confusing, and if we really want to cater to newbies out of the box it may be better to go with something simple, like MyPaint or Pinta.
 

ClockworkCoder

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I don't agree. The only people that I've heard with problems with it are Photoshop users that lament that it's not photoshop. If you've never used image editing software before then it's fairly intuitive for basic tasks, no harder than Photoshop for the same inexperienced user at any rate.
Admittedly, it is very powerful and for that reason could be considered daunting or confusing, and if we really want to cater to newbies out of the box it may be better to go with something simple, like MyPaint or Pinta.
I've not used it for many years, so it may have changed, but it was a mess of separate windows and slow to process basic image manipulation tasks. My requirements at the time weren't basic editing though.
 

canseco

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I've not used it for many years, so it may have changed
They introduced single window 6 years ago on 2.8 version, and 2.10 is coming soon (RC2 released yesterday) with hardware acceleration, multi-threading, and much more features some advance users missed.

This days they have help from artists like David Revoy and Zemarmot helping in development.
I used it for years for basic editing, but with a few packages from the repo, like GMIC it becomes very powerfull.

Almost everything on the GUI can be removed, like some tools at the left or panels.
With a nice default config it would be pretty easy to use, then power users could dive into Preferences and activate what they want.

And this libre/open source project is made by only 6 devs, just imagine how much better LibreOffice or Krita are with hundreds of devs and contributors.

Admittedly, it is very powerful and for that reason could be considered daunting or confusing, and if we really want to cater to newbies out of the box it may be better to go with something simple, like MyPaint or Pinta.
Good basic programs for painting, but not for editing.
And GIMP 2.10 will have MyPaint brushes, so i don't miss them anymore, ;)
 
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