What will you use your Pyra for?

[Rockthesmurf]

@pmprog Completely agree; it seems like Linux is okay if you want to install some distribution that includes a load of stuff, and you just use that stuff, or other pretty standard packages, and if you have hardware that plays ball nicely. Linux is also okay if you love diving into text files and following pages of instructions to type at a command prompt to tinker with things. If you fall somewhere between those two extremes, Linux pretty quickly becomes less 'cool'.

Other areas; not sure how much they have changed over the years, but how good is Linux at running:

• A metric tonne of recent games; sure a small number have Linux ports, and a bigger number work through WINE at some sort of usable speed, but I would guess it is still the case there are a lot that do not work?
• Decent audio recording programs (so something in the league of Logic Pro Audio, Cubase, etc.) from a quick Google there seems to be some sort of packages around now, I wonder if they still suck, and if the latency is still bad, and if they still don't seem to have decent DSP support, or seem to crash when doing too much?
• Editing c++ code in a sensible editor (as in one that is deemed sensible by the huge software studios that currently swear by Visual Studio for their use case)

Anyway...

 

[TrashyMG]

@pmprog Completely agree; it seems like Linux is okay if you want to install some distribution that includes a load of stuff, and you just use that stuff, or other pretty standard packages, and if you have hardware that plays ball nicely. Linux is also okay if you love diving into text files and following pages of instructions to type at a command prompt to tinker with things. If you fall somewhere between those two extremes, Linux pretty quickly becomes less 'cool'.

I hear where you are coming from, however not everyone's use of Linux is derived from some kind of hipster trend like you make it out to be, for me it's out of necessity. Where I work everything and I mean everything is done in some form of Unix or Linux. To me Windows is an annoyance as the basic tools I use everyday are missing and would require installing things from a ton of third party places. Also I personally like the fact that I can boot up in a few seconds on a slow 5400RPM laptop HDD and when I get to the log in screen in Linux, I don't have 5 minutes of swapping until everything is actually loaded up unlike Windows. I don't like having updates constantly causing me to reboot my computer or tell me I have 20 updates when I try to put my laptop away causing me to wait for it when I want to go home. I hate that it consumes almost a gig of my memory just being Idle.. There is plenty to hate about Windows that most people don't think about as it's the norm. Sure Linux has it's share of things that must annoy the hell out of newcomers, just think that the bonuses out weight the negatives if one could invest the time to learn new things.


I haven't seen much hardware that doesn't work in Linux any more, even things like Scanner and printers that have been less supported in the past have been getting a lot more support. Actually I've had better luck in some cases.

A metric tonne of recent games; sure a small number have Linux ports, and a bigger number work through WINE at some sort of usable speed, but I would guess it is still the case there are a lot that do not work?

I'm enjoying the recent game additions to Linux on my home desktop, however It's not my first priority for using Linux. I don't directly give Microsoft money any more, If a Game isn't available in Linux, I get it for PS3/PS4 and if it's not on those I just don't play it. 

Editing c++ code in a sensible editor (as in one that is deemed sensible by the huge software studios that currently swear by Visual Studio for their use case)

I don't work for a huge software studio so I can't comment, but there is a metric ton of good editors out there for Linux. 

 

[_jr_]

I don't think that audio recording, C++ editing or even windows only games are the killer features that will keep Microsoft in business. It's just showing how increasingly difficult it is becoming to find any valid reason to use windows. Haven't done so for years unless being paid for it and am not missing anything. And outside very specific markets, Microsoft tools are simply irrelevant in the industry.

 

[SNESFAN]

Direct x is a big thing keeping it relevant. I feel games are more of a driving force than is being credited. But is more of a chicken and the egg argument than anything, devs use it because of the audience, users stick with windows because of the targeted software, ignorance, or convenience.


Silver light is another thing I find myself absolutely having to go back and forth for (Netflix). I have yet to find an acceptably stable way of watching netflix under Linux. While there are ways to run a fairly large portion of windows only stuff in Linux with wine, stability sometimes takes a hit and instead of trying to work my way through problems its just easier to switch back and forth or one inside the other as needed. I'm no idiot when it comes to getting things to work either.


Finding alternatives is another option I turn to basically out of laziness and as long as the functionality is there I'll just use whatever is easier/faster to open at the time and depending on what I'm doing.


Sometimes Linux is booted into for weeks at a time, sometimes it's windows.

 

[TrashyMG]

Silver light is another thing I find myself absolutely having to go back and forth for (Netflix). I have yet to find an acceptably stable way of watching netflix under Linux.

Just install the latest chrome browser, Netflix is now officially supporting Linux in the latest version. It works flawlessly on any computer I've used, Tried both Fedora 20 and Debian Jessie. It's rumored the next Firefox beta works with Netflix as well.

 

[_jr_]

Direct x is a big thing keeping it relevant. I feel games are more of a driving force than is being credited. But is more of a chicken and the egg argument than anything, devs use it because of the audience, users stick with windows because of the targeted software, ignorance, or convenience.

I don't think the numbers support your feeling. Look at this (http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-01-28-pc-gaming-market-to-exceed-USD25-billion-this-year-dfc)

PC Gaming market to exceed USD 25 billion this year [2014]

and this from Microsoft itself (http://www.microsoft.com/investor/reports/ar14/index.html)

Despite this busy year of new products and significant change for the company, we delivered strong results, including revenue of more than $86 billion, gross margin of nearly $60 billion and operating income of $27.8 billion. We also returned more than $15.7 billion in cash to our shareholders, a 27 percent increase from 2013.

Yes, gaming is important to microsofts PC business, but gamers aren't generating most of its revenue. They are still living from windows+office being the standard platform in businesses. Though that is shrinking and they are trying to reinvent themselves as a cloud service provider and mobile device os vendor (from the link above). I just skimmed it, but AFAICT PC gaming isn't even mentioned (and it's a long text).


The rest of the software business does care even less for PC gaming or even gaming in general. Take a look at http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2696317


Don't delude yourself about the relevance of gaming. Its not even a technolgy driver.

 

[SNESFAN]

What conclusion are you pulling from that? The gaming market grossed less than Microsoft did? I can say that my $100 I spent on my copy of windows 8 was about 4x what I spent on games I played on it the year I got it. But also about half of what I spent on the copy of MS office to go with it. The copy of windows that came on a tablet I bought also had to cost something in the total price I'm sure. But my primary use and what I spend a great portion of my time using it is games, mostly free or previously purchased compatible games. But anyway.

The argument isn't in comparison to the software. That's like saying if you spent more on your PS4 than you did games since you bought it, game titles had no influence on console sales. Gets even less relevant if you could play a large quantity of free or extremely cheap quality games. But what drives the sales(investment) on the (operating) SYSTEM is the software that runs on it.

The logic is flawed, but I'm not arguing it being correct or not. At best a correlation not a cause or effect. A proper number to pull would be software sales by operating system maybe to show a relevant trend. Or software sales by licence per genre of software. But again that's only sales and gets even more confusing with free or open licensed stuff.

EDIT: I feel strongly that what will keep windows relevant in the future is its software, and a good portion of the uses (not necessarily sales) is games, as what keeps its OS sales strong.

EDIT: a ha, found something!

check it out, mind you this is only america and the statistics are pretty freaking old (1984?). But extremely unbiased and without spin. But significant % portion is video games as one of the main uses of computers.

http://www.census.gov/hhes/computer/files/sb88-2.pdf

another one, little more recent, different unbiased source, similar findings but only under 18 were surveyed in this one. You'd think this kinda info would be easy to find?

http://www.princeton.edu/futureofchildren/publications/figures-tables/figure_show.xml?fid=350

 

[_jr_]

You cannot find the numbers you are looking for, because they don't exist. Gaming simply isn't a significant part of PC use today. That it isn't even one of microsoft's strategic goals should be a strong clue. But believe what you want.

 

[Binky]

I think there's a strong element of what people are used to here.

If you are used to one set of features you think anything that doesn't have them, or implements them in a different way, is bad.

For example, I have been using the GIMP for a long time. It was the first computer graphic program I used.seriously.

I like the way the interface is split up into many windows. Using photoshop, I find the single huge window taking up the whole screen, with sub-windows inside it irritating and stupid. It gets in my way and wastes screen space.

I've talked to people who are primarily photoshop users, but have recently tried the GIMP. They think that having so many titchy little windows floating around the place is a pain, is confusing, and they can never find anything.

Sometimes its just things being different that are irritating.

That said, I am far more comfortable around Linux than Windows, and feel a a strong disinclination to give MS any of my money.

 

[pmprog]

I like the way the interface is split up into many windows

Ugh, I was glad when most IDE's decided to ditch that style. You always lost the toolbox you wanted underneath some other window and it became a hunting exercise. Docked windows with ability to hide them was a great solution.
As you said though, it's preference and familiarity.

just think that the bonuses out weight the negatives if one could invest the time to learn new things.

I don't know. A large portion of my game library, and general software I use, is Windows based. I've considered dual-booting and dismissed it as pointless and annoying.
I do have a couple of Linux VMs though (one being Sebt3's; the other being one I built that can compile for Linux, GCWZero (untested), NDS, and Android), and I'm happy with them.

 

[mrpalmtop]

^ Yeah, Grench convinced me the same thing. Forgot what thread it was. But I've never looked back again


Recently, my immediate boss is a computer illeterate, spoke to me about throwing his Core 2 Duo Dell deskop away. He said he has windows xp on it and it runs so slow. So I told him if he minds giving linux a try before he junks it and he agreed. I put Linux Mint XFCE on it as it is more user friendly than Debian. He was amazed of how good and fast it was and his machine stops making these noises under windows. He now wants Mint on his laptop I used to hate him, but now I like him a little more

I'm slowly brainwashing him into the Open Source universe.

This comment is so true. Linux on the desktop used to frequently be annoying. In the past few years, however, the various toolkits started interoperating properly and the hardware support vastly improved.


Imo the only thing missing now is power management. Sometimes it's still flaky, especially if you are using s compositing window manager. I hope that will change with Wayland and Mir.

 

[SNESFAN]

You cannot find the numbers you are looking for, because they don't exist. Gaming simply isn't a significant part of PC use today. That it isn't even one of microsoft's strategic goals should be a strong clue. But believe what you want.

I don't necessarily care about the actual results. Even though it would be satisfying to be correct. I'm more concerned something like this isn't easily accessible or widely available.

I literally can't find any kind of recent usage statistics on how the average person uses a computer.... on a computer. That's the confusing thing.

I'm actually thinking the number 1-2 uses are internet browsing and email. I just have a hunch number 3 is gaming.

 

[rygD]

I literally can't find any kind of recent usage statistics on how the average person uses a computer

My guess: 99% web browsing, including email.  This may have changed in the last few years with tablets and such on the rise.  Remember, you are talking about the average user.  You would need a rough estimate of the percentage of gamers for a specific population, then take out those that do most gaming on other devices.  I wouldn't be surprised if there are many more Android gamers than Windows gamers, and likewise with consoles vs Windows.  

A PC gamer is not an average person/user, even with more gamers and computer users now than in the past.  What I have found interesting is how many more people are aware of, and use, Linux than even 5 years ago.  I used to get little snide comments, and now people ask me for recommendations and assistance.  That had stopped, with the exception of friends and family, after I switched over to mostly Linux/BSD outside of work, and eventually I stopped using Windows for anything personal, including games.

 

[_wb_]

For coding, all you really need is a simple text editor (only "advanced" feature it needs imo is syntax highlighting) and "make". And git if you want to do some version control, forking, or multi-dev collaboration. If there's a bug you use gdb, valgrind, assert() statements or other code instrumentation, and whatever tool helps you to pinpoint the bug. For automatic testing you can use e.g. jenkins. I don't see where you would need Microsoft.

I think Microsoft keeps itself relevant mostly by doing something extremely weird with their Word document formats that ensures that nothing at all -- not even newer or older versions of Word itself -- can seem to reliably open Word documents, especially not in a way that correctly preserves formatting. This, together with their methods to "encourage" schools and governments to use Microsoft Word, ensures that many companies and individuals are essentially forced to keep using Microsoft products.

I think it should be illegal for schools, governments and other public institutions to publish documents and demand documents to be submitted in a proprietary file format.

 

[_jr_]

Well there are special circumstances. Steven some time ago mentioned a plugin to visually debug shaders that he is using. If you are developing shaders that sure is nice to have and may even be essential. And since windows has a larger market share, it is not surprising (and not inherently bad) that non multiplatform solutions are more often available on windows than on other systems. But OTOH it is interesting (and IMO a good thing) that these are increasingly niche use cases.

I agree that in general you need very little resources for development work and developers asking for faster systems or special tools are often the not so good ones. My Indian boss is an endless source of proverbs, like

Only a bad artisan is blaming his tools

 

[Tahatch Bearwolf]

I want to install winxp

Simply having an x86 chip would not be enough. I have forgotten the specifics but I remember some debate about getting Windows to run on a SoC and it was not something that would be easy to do, the boot process is completely different.
Installing x86 Linux systems like Ubuntu would be pretty easy because it doesn't care much about the boot process and what it does care about we have the source for and can fix.


So right from the start your idea that "if it was just X86 it would do everything I want and more" is flawed.


That being said, on your list: Diablo 2 runs on the Pandora with some frame skipping, arguably well enough to actually play and there's every reason to believe the Pyra will be able to close the gap; Ditto for Morrowind, and if not the actual game in emulation then OpenMW should be a good second choice; can't speak for disciples, mtg, or halo, but the Pandora already has many flavours of Doom that can run all kinds of different mods so you won't be lacking there. Plus all the emulators that already exist and will continue to be expanded upon. And all the rest except the webcam are already built into it of course.


So the question still stands: what is it that you want it to do that you think requires an x86 processor

Well, like I say, I dont really know the how so much as the what of what I want. As for games, yeah pandora already does a lot, but with a little more power and the right architecture and os it could run everything I love, though other than getting prefab little itx boards and adding components in a neat little folding case I have no idea how to do it myself and am prepared to pay for that expertise being handled for me. But I have listed what I want it to do with the gadget twice now, shall I compose a list of every program I wish to install? Basically, there are programs I need for work and play that while old and not too demanding on systems yet are just demanding enough to make running them through emus pointless and most of them are not available on ubuntu or an form of lynux that I know of.

Linux not lynux.  Clearly you're ignorant when it comes to alternate OS's.  We can help with that.

x86/ARM debate aside, Windows does suck... 

I agree as far as all new versions (though I give a little love to w7 - if customized) but my little lean stripped down no nonsense customized version of xp is still a dream come true for me and does all I have the brains to handle and with very little resource draw.

You are actually a perfect candidate for a Linux test drive.  May I recommend that you download the ISO for Debian Jessie (Testing), record it to a DVD or even better a USB stick, boot from that (it will be slow - remember the media you're booting from), and give it a quick whirl?  I think you'll be shocked at how -good- Linux really is these days.

Then take a recently retired 5-6 year old computer that you can buy anywhere for <=$200, install Linux Debian Jessie on it and USE it.  I fully expect it to blow your mind.

I misspell things sometimes and I am far from an expert on liyyyynuckkxs, but having tried it, and I can say it is excessively complicated to deal with just for an os that does not run the programs I need for my work or most of my games. I do keep ubuntu and some other 'alternative os' around just to try to help myself overcome my "ignorance" when I find time and interest and because I love the idea of open source, but none of them currently 'blow my mind'.

 

[Tahatch Bearwolf]

They give you what you want as long as its what the people with the skill, time, and resources want also. Being a minority in desire (see more mainstream) here is especially non advantageous because in most situations the only thing you have to offer is money and from perception most with skill in this community are not driven by money at the scale you would be offering to have your desires met.


Not to mention the rage face some people make at the thought of supporting something officially that is anything other than arm or linux.

Now I know that my tiny contribution to this project isn't going to guarantee that they listen to a word I say or change anything for me, and I know that there are many who are nearly religious about their architecture and software and that those people probably have more influence than most on this project, but I will still say my piece about what many real people want in such a 'swiss army knife' of a gadget. If this project prefers to cater to a tiny inbred elite of purists, that is the right of those involved, but there is a much larger minority of those of us who the mainstream gadgetmakers passed by and which the Prya could scoop up and profit from.

As for the purists though, people like myself don't really care 'how' or 'with what' you make it do all the thing we dream of doing, we just want it to do it. If it can really be done while adhering to the wishes of the techs and remaining as open source as possible, more power to them. If not and it's only appeal remain to linux purists and retro gamers, well, I guess it is more of a cooperative hobby than a business, but I would still want one, for retro games at least, but as a discerning and specific consumer I would not be willing to pay in excess of a thousand dollars for a retro gaming device, even if it does work slightly better and do a little more than the fairly decent one I already got from China.

 

[Tahatch Bearwolf]

shall I compose a list of every program I wish to install?

No, just those that you are absolutely certain need an x86 processor running Windows and are quite certain are too demanding to run through a PC emulator. It really only takes one. I'm trying to be helpful here. You aren't getting an x86 processor in a Pandora form factor any time soon and even if you did odds are it wouldn't be able to run Windows anyway, so you may as well accept it and try to find alternatives to the things you want to run on it.

I was just guessing about the x86, if it will run my programs at acceptable speed, I don't care how it does it or with what architecture. I do love my windows because I dont have to dedicate half my life to learning how to use it and I can use it for pretty much any program, and my version is trim and snappy, not bloated at all. But I am open to open source, and willing to make (minor) sacrifices, but it has to work well and without being absurdly complicated, especially since I have to open a lot of programs simultaneously to get things done, even for entertainment.

 

[Granitehead]

It's just what you are used to, all of you who claim Windows is easier to use... it's not. It's pretty much of the same difficulty as any other OS. They are all more or less the same.

The difference is just in how efficient you can become when you learn more about your OS.

I too doubt gaming has much to do with Windows dominating the market so much. You just think this because gaming is what interests you personally. I think, as mentioned, in the larger scheme office software is much more important, as well as lots of specialized proprietary software (CAD, music production, accounting systems, etc., etc.).

 

[Rockthesmurf]

When I tried using Linux fulltime, a long time ago, it was much harder to use, and for all intense and purpose, broke. Lots had changed since then, however last year I installed Ubuntu in a VM specifically for Pandora/Linux development, it ran really bad, to fix that I had to issue a loss of command line commands that meant nothing much to me and reboot a couple of times. I can safely say the majority of people I know would have given up. Sure it is probably the VMs fault, or maybe the hardware, or the star alignment. Maybe it is a vendetta against me...


I am sure someone has a similar story about trying to use Windows. I just find it a bit funny to hear how great Linux is as a fact when I have had these problems. If Linux was better (for me) I would use it. You rarely get MS fan boys, in fact most people don't particularly like MS. Most Windows users don't feel at war with Linux users, but for sure strange reason lots of Linux users seem to harbour strong feelings about the subject. Maybe it annoys then that so many people would rather spend significant amounts of money on a Windows license rather use Linux.