Optional 3G/UMTS module

[_wb_]

If you use your phone only for web browsing, email and/or texting, then I think the Pyra can be superior to your phone.

If you use your phone only to make and receive voice calls, then probably a simple dumbphone is superior because it will probably have a better battery life than even the Pyra, and it will certainly be more comfortable to hold to your ear.

There is of course a whole spectrum of usage patterns between these two extremes.

 

[Natsu]

Altough Natsus statement, I am (indirectly answering), is from another thread, I guess it fits here:


The Pyra won't be a multipurpose device to an extent some people seem to expect: it is still a UMPC with adjustments for gamers. The mobile data feature spawns from that purpose, and the possibility to make voice calls is just a byproduct of that "sidefeature".

The hardware is already there for a multipurpose device. Why intentionally cut it short?


 Because other UMPC don't have voice, because gamers don't game on their phones and because gamers don't make phone calls. :lol:


If it spawns from that, shouldn't it be there by default? I really don't think it's for that specifically. 

So my guess is that there won't be "real" official support from EDs side, escpecially not software wise - there may be someone who rips the phone software part out of some other open source project (openmoko or similar) and if its somewhat stable and not too hacky ED surely would agree to integrate in the official distribution, but that is as far as it would get.

We are going to buy voice, but you have to do all the work yourself and Spongebob this thing and while artificially bringing down demand.


Honestly, this would be strange for someone who value support from others so much.

I may have missed some posts, but from what I read there are already more people stating that they have no interest in a mobile dataconnection than in using the Pyra as a phone, so with the mobile data/voice capability beeing only an option, EDs motivation to pour resources in that particular "feature" will probably be not very high.

And? Companies give options all the time. Doesn't mean they wouldn't support both and/or there isn't demand for both.


Oh wait, I miss the "more" part. That something you can't judge like that. Of course you would read that when you don't


even see it as a feature.

On a more personal note: Just accept that the Pandora will be no phone as hard as that may be.

What?

My (not so short as I would like it to be) "life" experience

Um... What? lol

as soon as you start pouring in more features the more the project strays away from excelling in the features that it was originally planned to have.

,But most of the "common/main" stuff is already there.

^ I guess that majority of people being interested in using pyra as a phone might be former N900 users (like me)


Even if the number of people wishing to use pyra as a phone is in the same range as the number of preorders of neo900 it would still be only 3% of pyra users

I don't think that true at all. Why them specifically? :lol:   I'm pretty sure there are more phone users than


the N900 who would change their phone to the Pyra once they get word of it.

Still wish he would go straight to 4G. It's "only" one more module to deal with. He would have to go there eventually and

it will get more people who want to change/get rid of their phone.

 

[TrashyMG]

The hardware is already there for a multipurpose device. Why intentionally cut it short? Because other UMPC don't have voice, because gamers don't game on their phones and because gamers don't make phone calls. :lol: If it spawns from that, shouldn't it be there by default? I really don't think it's for that specifically.

Where can a dedicated phone speaker and microphone fit on the bottom side of the PCB without taking up space from something vital? The battery alone will take a bit of that real estate... putting it on the LCD lid is not a good idea, there is no room on the front, back or sides... So where will it be? Also you will need to flip open the screen to see who is calling anyway so might as well just use it either as a speaker phone or just use a bluetooth or plug in headset.

 

[Natsu]

Where can a dedicated phone speaker and microphone fit on the bottom side of the PCB without taking up space from something vital? The battery alone will take a bit of that real estate... putting it on the LCD lid is not a good idea, there is no room on the front, back or sides... So where will it be?

Since I'm not building the thing, Idk. There might not even be room. If there is, you know my stance.Why not on the lid?

Also you will need to flip open the screen to see who is calling anyway so might as well just use it either as a speaker phone or just use a bluetooth or plug in headset.

True, but at least you wouldn't have people listening from the speaker phone and you don't have to use and carry another device.

 

[Tenka]

Where can a dedicated phone speaker and microphone fit on the bottom side of the PCB without taking up space from something vital? The battery alone will take a bit of that real estate... putting it on the LCD lid is not a good idea, there is no room on the front, back or sides... So where will it be? Also you will need to flip open the screen to see who is calling anyway so might as well just use it either as a speaker phone or just use a bluetooth or plug in headset.

I also don't know if there is space or not, but speakers hardly take up any depth, I imagine if the Pyra has four rubber feet on the bottom holding it up a centimeter, the mini speaker could extend out just almost as far.  And although having caller ID is cool, sometimes I don't care and just answer, and the times I would care there would be a great chance I'm already holding the Pyra open to play with it, so I'd see the call, fold it closed and press the shoulder button to answer, rather than rush to dig headphones out of a travel bag before answering so that nobody else around me can hear my call.  Your last point makes me wish for that E-Ink screen again, that would have worked great for a caller ID.

Why not on the lid?

Having an extra speaker on the back of the lid means having another wire in the hinge between the body and the lid, or it could, but maybe the video standard of the new cable will support that.  It also means the Pyra will look like a phone, which not everyone would like.  The back of the lid is the part most people around you are going to see, I think it should be reserved for labels and personal advertizements, and not everyone wants it being a phone to be so evident at first glance.  Also the holes for the speaker would face up while the Pyra is laying closed, catching falling dust.  Speaker vents would look just great on the bottom of the case though, just like the bottom of a Nintendo 64 or the bottom of a Model M keyboard.

 

[Natsu]

would be a great chance I'm already holding the Pyra open to play with it, so I'd see the call, touch the screen, and  fold it closed and press the shoulder button to answer, rather than rush to dig headphones out of a travel bag before answering so that nobody else around me can hear my call. Your last point makes me wish for that E-Ink screen again, that would have worked great for a caller ID.

Fix'd

It also means the Pyra will look like a phone, which not everyone would like. The back of the lid is the part most people around you are going to see, I think it should be reserved for labels and personal advertizements, and not everyone wants it being a phone to be so evident at first glance.

It can still have personal ads (who does that?) and a label. It isn't taking up the whole space. On the lid it can be use

Also the holes for the speaker would face up while the Pyra is laying closed, catching falling dust. Speaker vents would look just great on the bottom of the case though, just like the bottom of a Nintendo 64 or the bottom of a Model M keyboard.

for more than just the phone tho. ie. Listening to music. Oppose to getting stuff in there from the bottom? You could flip it around, but still.

 

[Klumpen]

If you use your phone only for web browsing, email and/or texting, then I think the Pyra can be superior to your phone.

If you use your phone only to make and receive voice calls, then probably a simple dumbphone is superior because it will probably have a better battery life than even the Pyra, and it will certainly be more comfortable to hold to your ear.

That's why I got an old Samsung clamshell and my Pandora.

Smartphones are neither apples nor oranges.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Potential solution?

 

[Caine]

Potential solution?

Hah, funny. However, at that point you might just as well carry two devices.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Maybe if they were smaller, and clamshell design (to make it even more compact when folded). Oh wells.

 

[levi]

I've long thought this is the way to go - dumb handset driven by a clever box in your pocket or your bag.


I wonder how the display in those Xmobile devices work. Hopefully it's just a BT-OBEX thing or something, nice and easy, although if it's designed to work with iPhones presumably it won't be.

 

[thatgui]

The hardware is already there for a multipurpose device. Why intentionally cut it short?

 Because other UMPC don't have voice, because gamers don't game on their phones and because gamers don't make phone calls. :lol:

If it spawns from that, shouldn't it be there by default? I really don't think it's for that specifically.

What is your point ? Following that logic everything that sports USB capability should be made in an everything device, as it has the capability to connect every USB device available.Why don't you think "it's for that" specifically ? If making phone calls was one of its design goals, why aren't there already ideas from the Pyra team on how to reflect that in hardware other than the module itself (with gta04 we have the perfect candidate as he has already experience in designing a phone) ?

The Pyras first design goal was (and I think still is) to be a better Pandora - meaning more computing power,more reliable case and controls and a display with a higher resolution. A Cellular modem wasn't part of that, but something that ED started considering after (some) user drew enough attention to it.

We are going to buy voice, but you have to do all the work yourself and Spongebob this thing and while artificially bringing down demand.

Honestly, this would be strange for someone who value support from others so much.

And? Companies give options all the time. Doesn't mean they wouldn't support both and/or there isn't demand for both.

Oh wait, I miss the "more" part. That something you can't judge like that. Of course you would read that when you don't

even see it as a feature.

 

,But most of the "common/main" stuff is already there.

Did not know you are in the team, or why is there a "we" ?

I guess you missed (or I failed at delivering) the point I'm trying to make:

• The cellular modem will be optional, so ED already expects that a big part of the target user group won't buy one (for various reasons, costs, user story, etc). So while making the cellular modem optional is rather easy to facilitate (just put on the board or not) something you would like, needs to be implemented for all users (making seperate batches of cases with/out customizations for that particular function would increase case costs)
• In whatever way a hardware implementation of the functionality you desire would occur, it would complicate the design. While there are uncertain factors, like putting that stuff in the lid, may complicate things due to the extra wires, etc.. ED seems to be determined to keep the case mostly without new holes, as he already stated the putting some ports in the side won't happen as it weakens/complicates case design.
• While ED always worked hard on and tried to be as supportive and helpfull as possible, in terms of creating the OS for the Pandora - the big impulses/work always came from people that aren't bound by any kind of contract, so ED has no real "control" over what and when features will be implemented. There is the possibility of hiring someone, but its hard to believe that he would invest a lot of money in something that only a part of his already small userbase could use. And there is the (already mentioned and much more likely) possibility that someone steps up and does the job, to what extend and to wether this will be easy to integrate into the official distributions is out of everyones knowledge and EDs control.
• A "no costs" solution already exists: external Headset (ether via the dedicated port or bluethooth).
• Altough I don't see that having that functionality would be very attractive to potential buyers, ED already declared that he is worried about too much success of the Pyra as he probably could not handle it with his small company, so he is actually interested in limiting things to some extent

and to get to the more "personal" point:
Exaggerated: Too much functionality kills the core functionality. Meaning that the more functionaility you try to put in something, the more you have to take away from the original intended functionality: two important factors here > Resources, especially in EDs case (he is basically a one man army on a shoestring budget) and overlapping requirements.

Easy target: modern smartphones: Compared to "real/basic/old" cellphones, the core feature "telephony" is a lot more cumbersome. Compared to mobile gaming systems, playing games on a smartphone is more cumbersome, etc.

All that does not mean, that it won't happen (a cellular modem was unlikely in the beginning too), just that it is highly unlikely

What?

I may be totally wrong here, but looking at your comments in this and other threads you seem to be quite determined to cram in phone functionality into the Pyra in order to get lost of your cellphone. Which is your right to do so, as it is mine to object to that.

 

[Natsu]

What is your point ? Following that logic everything that sports USB capability should be made in an everything device, as it has the capability to connect every USB device available.


Why don't you think "it's for that" specifically ? If making phone calls was one of its design goals, why aren't there already ideas from the Pyra team on how to reflect that in hardware other than the module itself (with gta04 we have the perfect candidate as he has already experience in designing a phone) ?


The Pyras first design goal was (and I think still is) to be a better Pandora - meaning more computing power,more reliable case and controls and a display with a higher resolution. A Cellular modem wasn't part of that, but something that ED started considering after (some) user drew enough attention to it.

What's yours?  4G/3G not specifically for gaming. How does cellular modem not make it a better Pandora? Why limit something that's

already there. Well, with the "it can't happen" attitude, attention wouldn't have been brought to it in the first place.

Did not know you are in the team, or why is there a "we" ?

That was an attempt at sarcasm. My fault for not putting it in quotes or not putting "/s" at the end.  :lol:  

"We" as in the people who are making it.

I guess you missed (or I failed at delivering) the point I'm trying to make:

• The cellular modem will be optional, so ED already expects that a big part of the target user group won't buy one (for various reasons, costs, user story, etc). So while making the cellular modem optional is rather easy to facilitate (just put on the board or not) something you would like, needs to be implemented for all users (making seperate batches of cases with/out customizations for that particular function would increase case costs)
• In whatever way a hardware implementation of the functionality you desire would occur, it would complicate the design. While there are uncertain factors, like putting that stuff in the lid, may complicate things due to the extra wires, etc.. ED seems to be determined to keep the case mostly without new holes, as he already stated the putting some ports in the side won't happen as it weakens/complicates case design.
• While ED always worked hard on and tried to be as supportive and helpfull as possible, in terms of creating the OS for the Pandora - the big impulses/work always came from people that aren't bound by any kind of contract, so ED has no real "control" over what and when features will be implemented. There is the possibility of hiring someone, but its hard to believe that he would invest a lot of money in something that only a part of his already small userbase could use. And there is the (already mentioned and much more likely) possibility that someone steps up and does the job, to what extend and to wether this will be easy to integrate into the official distributions is out of everyones knowledge and EDs control.
• A "no costs" solution already exists: external Headset (ether via the dedicated port or bluethooth).
• Altough I don't see that having that functionality would be very attractive to potential buyers, ED already declared that he is worried about too much success of the Pyra as he probably could not handle it with his small company, so he is actually interested in limiting things to some extent

• Making something optional doesn't mean wouldn't be bought be a large group and even then,artificially bringing down demand doesn't really help there.
• You making it seem like he isn't changing the case at all. Also, not even sure if that was the reason. I think it had something to do with blocking the ports when in use.
• I figure that, but your post was making it seem like he wasn't going to help at all. Not only that, you don't know if it's only a part of a small userbase could(?) use. Do you really think he wouldn't or get someone to actually have it working with the software? Do you really think he just going dump that on the user?
• You can also use your phone... We already went through this.
• While I think the functionality will bring in people, I don't think there will be so much that he can't handle. This thing is meant to last  4-5 years or so he doesn't have to keep up with demand that closely.

and to get to the more "personal" point:


Exaggerated: Too much functionality kills the core functionality. Meaning that the more functionaility you try to put in something, the more you have to take away from the original intended functionality: two important factors here > Resources, especially in EDs case (he is basically a one man army on a shoestring budget) and overlapping requirements.


Easy target: modern smartphones: Compared to "real/basic/old" cellphones, the core feature "telephony" is a lot more cumbersome. Compared to mobile gaming systems, playing games on a smartphone is more cumbersome, etc.


All that does not mean, that it won't happen (a cellular modem was unlikely in the beginning too), just that it is highly unlikely

Not sure how a speaker and mic on the outside kills the "core" functionality. And how the possibility of a cellular modem come up? By


at least saying something about it.

I may be totally wrong here, but looking at your comments in this and other threads you seem to be quite determined to cram in phone functionality into the Pyra in order to get lost of your cellphone. Which is your right to do so, as it is mine to object to that.

Sounds like you would object to 4G/3G in general, if it was already an option.  What do you gain from objecting this?  Oh, right. Nothing!

 

[levi]

The possibility of a cellular modem came up by ED and GTA04 putting one on the prototype board.

 

[_jr_]

I gain more confidence that the Pyra design can be finished in a reasonable time frame and it can be produced without requiring even more than half a million to start the production by not adding too many features. Where too many begins isn't clearly defined, but since not all of the customers will actually buy the module, investing much into phone features (software and hardware) might well be on the too many side. If we're lucky it can be resolved like the charging port discussion where the planned solution is near perfect for everybody, but that will not always be possible. Let's see what the case designers can come up with.

 

[Natsu]

The possibility of a cellular modem came up by ED and GTA04 putting one on the prototype board.

If that's the case, there still other moments where a new possibility open by asking/hoping.

 

[thatgui]

What's yours?  4G/3G not specifically for gaming. How does cellular modem not make it a better Pandora? Why limit something that's

already there. Well, with the "it can't happen" attitude, attention wouldn't have been brought to it in the first place.

The problem is that you have to limit things at some point otherwise you can't stop including features - I was trying to hint at that in my last post: the Pyra is capable of talking to any device available that "speaks" usb - so everything necessary is already there. Think of FM/UKW/whatever radio modules, DVB-? modules etc. Acorrding to your logic (why limit when its already there) this all should be included without a second thought, if someone makes a post about it.So my point is that an arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere, to prevent feature creep. Including an extra speaker and microphone is on the other side of that line in my opinion, yours may differ - in the end its up to Ed

That was an attempt at sarcasm. My fault for not putting it in quotes or not putting "/s" at the end.  :lol:  

"We" as in the people who are making it.

? 

Making something optional doesn't mean wouldn't be bought be a large group and even then,artificially bringing down demand doesn't really help there.

Ed can't produce things "on demand" in various quantities, he has to order in certain quantities, to keep prices on a level that fits his orginial calculations, so he already limits it artifically.

You making it seem like he isn't changing the case at all. Also, not even sure if that was the reason. I think it had something to do with blocking the ports when in use.

No he was specifically mentioning tooling/production costs (as a side factor). But it is not about making any changes to the case in general, its about making changes that only a small amount of customers will probably use.

figure that, but your post was making it seem like he wasn't going to help at all. Not only that, you don't know if it's only a part of a small userbase could(?) use. Do you really think he wouldn't or get someone to actually have it working with the software? Do you really think he just going dump that on the user?

Both options are equally possible, and looking at the Pandora he surely would not "dump that on the user" but he wont make it magically happen either. Look at some of the Pandora features, and how long it took till they were available (like proper powermanagement) or still aren't really usable today (like the dsp). Just because it is there in hardware does not necesarrily mean it will get a proper counterpart in software.

You can also use your phone... We already went through this.

No, thats not the point: You want to get rid of your phone - fine do that, we don't need extra alterations for that just use a headset. No Additonal costs - a Headset port is there and the Pyra will have bluethooth.

Not sure how a speaker and mic on the outside kills the "core" functionality. And how the possibility of a cellular modem come up? By

at least saying something about it.

With including a speaker and a microphone you put more emphasis on the phone part - meaning it is meant as a "core" feature - if its meant as just a byproduct, why put it in in the first place. So peoples expectations about that particular feature will rise thus ED needs to give at least something workable otherwise comments/reviews with a line "they even would give you the option to look stupid while beeing on the phone, if they could deliver a proper/working phone software" are a certainty. And we are back at one of my "core" points: EDs resources aren't endless, and the more he has to take care of - feature wise - the more the resources get spread thin.

Sounds like you would object to 4G/3G in general, if it was already an option.

Where did I gave you the impression ? I am planning on buying the 3G version (if I can afford it).
Unrelated to our current discussion: You mentioned several times that you plan on having a 4G Pyra in the future. If I remember ED correctly, he said that 4G was not an option due to cost and/or (can't remember anymore) size restrictions of the antenna. Wouln't that require a new peripheral board too, or does my memory just fail me here ?

What do you gain from objecting this?  Oh, right. Nothing!

Beside that partaking in a discussion can be beneficial in general, this whole subsection is about discussion of ideas so EDs can see what the community has in mind for the Pyra, where is the problem if I vocalize my discontent with some ideas ?

 

[Bosbeetle]

If you use your phone only for web browsing, email and/or texting, then I think the Pyra can be superior to your phone.

If you use your phone only to make and receive voice calls, then probably a simple dumbphone is superior because it will probably have a better battery life than even the Pyra, and it will certainly be more comfortable to hold to your ear.

There is of course a whole spectrum of usage patterns between these two extremes.

Dumbphone pyra combination it will be, at least thats if you call a symbian bar phone with buttons a dumb phone

 

[_wb_]

If you use your phone only for web browsing, email and/or texting, then I think the Pyra can be superior to your phone.

If you use your phone only to make and receive voice calls, then probably a simple dumbphone is superior because it will probably have a better battery life than even the Pyra, and it will certainly be more comfortable to hold to your ear.

There is of course a whole spectrum of usage patterns between these two extremes.

Dumbphone pyra combination it will be, at least thats if you call a symbian bar phone with buttons a dumb phone

I'm currently still using a good old ancient nokia from 2006 or so that was very cheap back then. Battery life is still excellent. It is starting to show some signs of ageing though, so I'm considering to buy a new one. I'm considering either something like a Nokia 301 (should have great battery life and it has a camera that is good enough for spur-of-the-moment stuff; http://www.nokia.com/global/products/phone/301) or a YotaPhone (http://yotaphone.com) which is actually a smartphone but maybe by using it's e-ink display on the back most of the time, I can still get a decent battery life out of it.

 

[Natsu]

The problem is that you have to limit things at some point otherwise you can't stop including features - I was trying to hint at that in my last post: the Pyra is capable of talking to any device available that "speaks" usb - so everything necessary is already there. Think of FM/UKW/whatever radio modules, DVB-? modules etc. Acorrding to your logic (why limit when its already there) this all should be included without a second thought, if someone makes a post about it.So my point is that an arbitrary line has to be drawn somewhere, to prevent feature creep. Including an extra speaker and microphone is on the other side of that line in my opinion, yours may differ - in the end its up to Ed

I get the point about limiting things, but I can't follow this USB part. Maybe because you are reaching with that.


Anyway, doesn't make sense to draw the line on the speaker and microphone. It's not like a off the wall feature.

Ed can't produce things "on demand" in various quantities, he has to order in certain quantities, to keep prices on a level that fits his orginial calculations, so he already limits it artifically.

Yes, but his not going to deliberately hurt a feature, like not even having the call and internet working before it release, by doing so.

its about making changes that only a small amount of customers will probably use.

With so many people with smartphones/phones today, you think this how?

Both options are equally possible, and looking at the Pandora he surely would not "dump that on the user" but he wont make it magically happen either. Look at some of the Pandora features, and how long it took till they were available (like proper powermanagement) or still aren't really usable today (like the dsp). Just because it is there in hardware does not necesarrily mean it will get a proper counterpart in software.

I'm pretty sure it will be at able to make calls and go on the internet before it's releases. Ironing will be done afterwards.

No, thats not the point: You want to get rid of your phone - fine do that, we don't need extra alterations for that just use a headset. No Additonal costs - a Headset port is there and the Pyra will have bluethooth.


With including a speaker and a microphone you put more emphasis on the phone part - meaning it is meant as a "core" feature - if its meant as just a byproduct, why put it in in the first place. So peoples expectations about that particular feature will rise thus ED needs to give at least something workable otherwise comments/reviews with a line "they even would give you the option to look stupid while beeing on the phone, if they could deliver a proper/working phone software" are a certainty. And we are back at one of my "core" points: EDs resources aren't endless, and the more he has to take care of - feature wise - the more the resources get spread thin.

Except it is additional costs, probably nearly the same as an built-in mic and speaker and an additional thing to


carry.


Except the speaker and a microphone can be use for more than the phone, so it gives emphasis that it can do more than one thing.


Software can be down by updates, at least the hardware would already be set in place.

Where did I gave you the impression ? I am planning on buying the 3G version (if I can afford it).


Beside that partaking in a discussion can be beneficial in general, this whole subsection is about discussion of ideas so EDs can see what the community has in mind for the Pyra, where is the problem if I vocalize my discontent with some ideas ?

Because you are so against a feature that will complement 3G/4G and will benefit yourself.


You vocalizing your discontent? So, you are more content in having to using a headset than just pick up and putting the Pyra to your ear? You rather have a headset over the this?

With it you gain easy way to talk and/or listen to music without opening it and can still chose to get headset/Bluetooth vs everyone having to get and carry just to talk,that will be more of a cost anyway.

Unrelated to our current discussion: You mentioned several times that you plan on having a 4G Pyra in the future. If I remember ED correctly, he said that 4G was not an option due to cost and/or (can't remember anymore) size restrictions of the antenna. Wouln't that require a new peripheral board too, or does my memory just fail me here ?

Think he said if (when imo)the Pyra in general gets enough traction then he will go for 4G. He may be wrong about the antenna thing.