Unofficial Keyboard Layouts

[God Ginrai]

Quote it here so we dont have to waste their time.

I specifically started the Private Message situation because EvilDragon asked me to show him a way it could work, and apparently hadn't seen my responses.

There's no point in posting it here because the only people who could prove it impossible would be EvilDragon and gta04, since they have an intimate knowledge of the PCB.

-God Ginrai

 It's a bit annoying that you have secret proposals that you never want to share with us, while you're still making a lot of noise about their existence. Show us your proposal or stop talking about it.

What are you talking about? None of my proposals have been secret. I have already posted this in 3 different topics, and I am tired of reposting it. The most recent proposal has gotten into specifics with EvilDragon about why it would not conflict with particular screw positions, and is a question only EvilDragon and gta04 can answer.

The only reason I am mentioning it here is to light a fire under EvilDragon who started ignoring me. Unless, _wb_, you happen to know the particular screw positions on the PCB, then telling you what the current plan is won't change anything.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Quote it here so we dont have to waste their time.

I specifically started the Private Message situation because EvilDragon asked me to show him a way it could work, and apparently hadn't seen my responses.


There's no point in posting it here because the only people who could prove it impossible would be EvilDragon and gta04, since they have an intimate knowledge of the PCB.

-God Ginrai

 
It's a bit annoying that you have secret proposals that you never want to share with us, while you're still making a lot of noise about their existence. Show us your proposal or stop talking about it.

What are you talking about? None of my proposals have been secret. I have already posted this in 3 different topics, and I am tired of reposting it. The most recent proposal has gotten into specifics with EvilDragon about why it would not conflict with particular screw positions, and is a question only EvilDragon and gta04 can answer.


The only reason I am mentioning it here is to light a fire under EvilDragon who started ignoring me. Unless, _wb_, you happen to know the particular screw positions on the PCB, then telling you what the current plan is won't change anything.

-God Ginrai

I have seen you say at many different locations that you have a proposal and that it is not secret but it is no use to give details because you already did that elsewhere, and you are tired of repeating yourself - but you never give a pointer to a post that actually describes the proposal. You spend lots of words to explain why you don't want to say what your proposal is: you are tired of "repeating" it, we mere mortals cannot comment on it because we don't know all final details of the pcb layout, etc. Can't you just give us a link to a description of your proposal instead?

 

[comradekingu]

I find it puzzling that you don't know yourself if it would work, yet you claim ED and nikolaus are the only ones with enough innate knowledge to answer...

There are plenty of member on the boards well vested in PCB production, HQ and engineering. Please post your proposal somewhere, and link to it everywhere you talk about it.

 

[Askarus]

Update: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/35966045febfedabc0ca1eae8e33b58

I'm renaming AltGr to Meta, because that sounds much cooler to me (it's Greek and geek!).

For the menu button: Please don't use this symbol (3 horizontal lines).

It looks like the Xbox menu symbol.

 

[_wb_]

Well it is also a unicode symbol (☰) and it is not only used by XBox but also by other devices like Android phones. But once we have a Pyra logo, it makes sense to use that for the PYRA button.

 

[God Ginrai]

Quote it here so we dont have to waste their time.

I specifically started the Private Message situation because EvilDragon asked me to show him a way it could work, and apparently hadn't seen my responses.

There's no point in posting it here because the only people who could prove it impossible would be EvilDragon and gta04, since they have an intimate knowledge of the PCB.

-God Ginrai

It's a bit annoying that you have secret proposals that you never want to share with us, while you're still making a lot of noise about their existence. Show us your proposal or stop talking about it.

What are you talking about? None of my proposals have been secret. I have already posted this in 3 different topics, and I am tired of reposting it. The most recent proposal has gotten into specifics with EvilDragon about why it would not conflict with particular screw positions, and is a question only EvilDragon and gta04 can answer.

The only reason I am mentioning it here is to light a fire under EvilDragon who started ignoring me. Unless, _wb_, you happen to know the particular screw positions on the PCB, then telling you what the current plan is won't change anything.

-God Ginrai

I have seen you say at many different locations that you have a proposal and that it is not secret but it is no use to give details because you already did that elsewhere, and you are tired of repeating yourself - but you never give a pointer to a post that actually describes the proposal. You spend lots of words to explain why you don't want to say what your proposal is: you are tired of "repeating" it, we mere mortals cannot comment on it because we don't know all final details of the pcb layout, etc. Can't you just give us a link to a description of your proposal instead?

Then you've obviously been ignoring the numerous times I posted this. I discussed my layout answering all of Saber's questions about it in the early pages of the Action Button Labels topic, a topic that you participated in often, seen here:

Well, that's what it looks like now. Let's see if you can dazzle us.

Commencing Dazzle:

Pyra
__________________________________________________________
/ \
| |
| +++++++++ WiFi 3/4G Power Br- Br+ +++++++++ |
| +++++++++ +++++++++ |
| |
| ^ Start |
| (Z) |
| (Y) |
| < > (Nub1) Select (Nub2) (C) |
| (X) ( |
| |
| v Menu (A) |
| |
| |
| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Back |
| |
| Tab q w e r t y u i o p Ent |
| |
| Shift a s d f g h j k l Shift |
| |
| , . z x c v b n m Spacebar Fn |
| |
\__________________________________________________________/

If you follow that post to the topic and read from there, you will see Saber ask questions, and my response to each one.

I find it puzzling that you don't know yourself if it would work, yet you claim ED and nikolaus are the only ones with enough innate knowledge to answer...

There are plenty of member on the boards well vested in PCB production, HQ and engineering. Please post your proposal somewhere, and link to it everywhere you talk about it.

I'm confident that what I have proposed to EvilDragon will work. The only chance that it would not work is if there is something specific about the PCB design that prevents it. This is something that only EvilDragon and gta04 could know, excluding maybe Askarus. Unless I'm wrong and EvilDragon has been sharing PCB designs with you and _wb_ to get your valuable input?

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

Quote it here so we dont have to waste their time.

I specifically started the Private Message situation because EvilDragon asked me to show him a way it could work, and apparently hadn't seen my responses.


There's no point in posting it here because the only people who could prove it impossible would be EvilDragon and gta04, since they have an intimate knowledge of the PCB.

-God Ginrai

It's a bit annoying that you have secret proposals that you never want to share with us, while you're still making a lot of noise about their existence. Show us your proposal or stop talking about it.

What are you talking about? None of my proposals have been secret. I have already posted this in 3 different topics, and I am tired of reposting it. The most recent proposal has gotten into specifics with EvilDragon about why it would not conflict with particular screw positions, and is a question only EvilDragon and gta04 can answer.


The only reason I am mentioning it here is to light a fire under EvilDragon who started ignoring me. Unless, _wb_, you happen to know the particular screw positions on the PCB, then telling you what the current plan is won't change anything.

-God Ginrai

I have seen you say at many different locations that you have a proposal and that it is not secret but it is no use to give details because you already did that elsewhere, and you are tired of repeating yourself - but you never give a pointer to a post that actually describes the proposal. You spend lots of words to explain why you don't want to say what your proposal is: you are tired of "repeating" it, we mere mortals cannot comment on it because we don't know all final details of the pcb layout, etc. Can't you just give us a link to a description of your proposal instead?

Then you've obviously been ignoring the numerous times I posted this. I discussed my layout answering all of Saber's questions about it in the early pages of the Action Button Labels topic, a topic that you participated in often, seen here:

Well, that's what it looks like now. Let's see if you can dazzle us.

Commencing Dazzle:


Pyra
__________________________________________________________
/ \
| |
| +++++++++ WiFi 3/4G Power Br- Br+ +++++++++ |
| +++++++++ +++++++++ |
| |
| ^ Start |
| (Z) |
| (Y) |
| < > (Nub1) Select (Nub2) (C) |
| (X) ( |
| |
| v Menu (A) |
| |
| |
| 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 0 Back |
| |
| Tab q w e r t y u i o p Ent |
| |
| Shift a s d f g h j k l Shift |
| |
| , . z x c v b n m Spacebar Fn |
| |
\__________________________________________________________/

If you follow that post to the topic and read from there, you will see Saber ask questions, and my response to each one.

I find it puzzling that you don't know yourself if it would work, yet you claim ED and nikolaus are the only ones with enough innate knowledge to answer...


There are plenty of member on the boards well vested in PCB production, HQ and engineering. Please post your proposal somewhere, and link to it everywhere you talk about it.

I'm confident that what I have proposed to EvilDragon will work. The only chance that it would not work is if there is something specific about the PCB design that prevents it. This is something that only EvilDragon and gta04 could know, excluding maybe Askarus. Unless I'm wrong and EvilDragon has been sharing PCB designs with you and _wb_ to get your valuable input?

-God Ginrai

OK, thanks for the pointer -- I thought you had some new proposal about how to fix the issues with that layout, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

It's a bit hard to tell from an ascii art drawing, but it looks like your C and Z buttons are both overlapping with an anchoring hole in the PCB. I don't really see a solution for that.

Also, your X button is in nub area; perhaps moving the right nub to the left by about one action button width could work (there is a bit of room before you hit the START/SELECT/PYRA buttons), but then you would also have to move the left nub to the right to keep things symmetrical. For people with small hands it may become less comfortable to use the nubs if they're pushed further inwards.

Other than those two concerns, I think it's a good proposal and if it can be done without pushing the nubs too much inwards, I support it. But my guess is that one or both of the above issues are dealbreakers for ED; I don't think ED picked the layout he picked just because he likes that layout.

Anyway, while I like the positions of the buttons in your proposal, I don't like their proposed labels. Swapping X and A compared to the Pandora labeling is confusing.

 

[God Ginrai]

OK, thanks for the pointer -- I thought you had some new proposal about how to fix the issues with that layout, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

No one had mentioned any actual issues with this layout, hence why it is what I proposed to EvilDragon.

It's a bit hard to tell from an ascii art drawing, but it looks like your C and Z buttons are both overlapping with an anchoring hole in the PCB. I don't really see a solution for that.

EvilDragon did mention that what I had suggested had one button that conlicted with the screw position. However, I am still waiting for his answer regarding my solutions for that. (There are a couple of ways to solve it, moving the whole layout up or down, or moving the screw so that it is below the Z button)

Also, your X button is in nub area; perhaps moving the right nub to the left by about one action button width could work (there is a bit of room before you hit the START/SELECT/PYRA buttons), but then you would also have to move the left nub to the right to keep things symmetrical. For people with small hands it may become less comfortable to use the nubs if they're pushed further inwards.

It's actually not. I originally suggested moving the nubs inward. However, after EvilDragon informed me that he did not want to move the nubs inward, I developed an alternate version that moves the buttons inward so that the distance between the outer edges of the buttons are equal to the same distance as the diameter of the dpad.

Other than those two concerns, I think it's a good proposal and if it can be done without pushing the nubs too much inwards, I support it. But my guess is that one or both of the above issues are dealbreakers for ED; I don't think ED picked the layout he picked just because he likes that layout.

Exactly. I believe I have solved those two issues with my most recent message to EvilDragon, which is why it is really bothering me that I have not gotten a response.

Anyway, while I like the positions of the buttons in your proposal, I don't like their proposed labels. Swapping X and A compared to the Pandora labeling is confusing.

I figured you'd say that. I disagree with you, but that doesn't matter at the moment. The main thing I am concerned with is getting the buttons in the right places. What they are labelled is important to me, but not as important as their positions.

-God Ginrai

 

[comradekingu]

That wont work, you just placed a button in the middle of a screw and elongated the square to fit your design.  Try with a screencap of the base pcb from the video instead. And pay attention to where the holes are.

The screws come from the underside and meets a cylinder made of the base material of which the base keyboard surface is made, with threads that go through a hole in the pcb to meet eachother. More precicely you placed a button on a place on the PCB where there is a hole.

No, that hole cant be moved, as it requires the components on the underside of the PCB to route around it. No, that is not arbitrary because when its on the side it creates the least amount of problem and dead space. You need to account for flex of the PCB when pressing buttons and structural rigidity No, it cant go on the long sides because there are ports there.  No, you cant move buttons as they will then be in the middle of the speaker. No, those speakers cant be moved. Same for the keyboard. Same for nubs. No, you cant move the nubs very close to eachother because then they arent as ergonomic

A 6 button cluster like that naturally expands in both directions the cluster. No, the case cant be bigger. No, the buttons cant be smaller. You also need to account for the width of the case material, stealing some usable space inwards, which in conclusion means:

There is no space for a 6 button cluster.

 

[God Ginrai]

That wont work, you just placed a button in the middle of a screw and elongated the square to fit your design.  Try with a screencap of the base pcb from the video. And pay attention to where the holes are.

I have already given multiple solutions for the screw. (See above) Also, "elongated the square"? What do you mean?

EDIT: Gotta go out for about an hour or so. I will respond to any messages after that when I get back.

-God Ginrai

 

[DAP]

OK, thanks for the pointer -- I thought you had some new proposal about how to fix the issues with that layout, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

No one had mentioned any actual issues with this layout, hence why it is what I proposed to EvilDragon.

I think I have made it VERY clear I have an issue with a double wide space key in that location. I guess I just don't count.

 

[comradekingu]

I mean a quadrant. What are you left with after you consider whats in my post, snapping the case together at the edge only? You are still out of room to put the buttoncluster in.

 

[God Ginrai]

OK, thanks for the pointer -- I thought you had some new proposal about how to fix the issues with that layout, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

No one had mentioned any actual issues with this layout, hence why it is what I proposed to EvilDragon.

I think I have made it VERY clear I have an issue with a double wide space key in that location. I guess I just don't count.

The Phyiscal Layout of the Game Buttons. Please, at least read my posts before you reply to them. Honestly, that's very insulting.

@comradekingu: I'm sorry, I'm still not understanding what you are trying to say.

-God Ginrai

 

[levi]

He means you've made it wider, I think.

 

[God Ginrai]

He means you've made it wider, I think.

Well, if that is what he is saying, I can honestly affirm that I have not made the device wider or taller with my proposal.

-God Ginrai

 

[_wb_]

 

Also, your X button is in nub area; perhaps moving the right nub to the left by about one action button width could work (there is a bit of room before you hit the START/SELECT/PYRA buttons), but then you would also have to move the left nub to the right to keep things symmetrical. For people with small hands it may become less comfortable to use the nubs if they're pushed further inwards.

It's actually not. I originally suggested moving the nubs inward. However, after EvilDragon informed me that he did not want to move the nubs inward, I developed an alternate version that moves the buttons inward so that the distance between the outer edges of the buttons are equal to the same distance as the diameter of the dpad.

OK. So let's assume the PCB hole thing can somehow be worked around. Could you please show us your alternate version that solves the nub overlap problem without moving the nubs inwards, without making the unit wider or taller, and without changing the button size?

 

[Natsu]

Crazy idea.

1

   Y

A    B

   X

       2

 

[bzar]

^ Yes, it is

 

[levi]

It's an idea if the 1 is in same position as in the mockups of ED's proposal we've seen, and the 2 is in the opposite corner.  If the 1 can be squeezed in without making the unit any larger then the 2 hopefully could too.  Something a bit like:

1 Y

A  B

  X 2

It's still less than ideal, as the two obvious curves (AX2 and 1YB) are navigated by extending or flexing your thumb rather than by sweeping it across and because, assuming the ABXY locations are as on Pandora, comfortably hitting the space between B and X require my to hold the pandora differently in my right hand than I do if all I need to do is hit the ABXY (and indeed proposed 1) buttons - it's more akin to my keyboarding hold.  ED's proposed 1 and 2 are easily accessible to me using my normal hold.

But at least it doesn't look as nonsensical as having both new buttons on the left.  I've kind of talked myself out of the idea in typing this up, but if others were thinking similar then I've not completely wasted my time!

 

[_wb_]

Having the new buttons on the left does make some sense: all 4 of the "main" buttons can be reached without risking an accidental press of one of the new buttons. Since many games will only use 4 buttons (or even only 2!), it is arguably more important to keep the main buttons easy to use than to make a nice and symmetric compromise layout in which 6 buttons are moderately easy to use, but the two main buttons (X and B on the Pandora) are worse than on the Pandora.