Unofficial Keyboard Layouts
- Thread starter Saber
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
But you can't click and drag with these nubs.
I think you can, but even if not, then you could use left nub for mouse movement and right click, and right nub for scrolling and left click.
And you have a touchscreen.
God Ginrai
Godmaster
As Natsu said, you have a touchscreen. However, beside that, EvilDragon pointed out months ago that if you use one nub for the mouse movement and the other for the left click, then you can indeed click and drag with the nubs.
-God Ginrai
levi
Still fresh, damnit!
Yes, but touchscreens can break, and some of us prefer to use buttons than the touchscreen for various reasons.
Having left click on the right nub would solve left dragging, but are you sure there aren't any apps that use a right drag for anything?
Having left click on the right nub would solve left dragging, but are you sure there aren't any apps that use a right drag for anything?
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
I don't believe I've ever used an app that used right or middle drag. However, if you find one that does, then you can switch the nub functionality to support that specific app using some nub config changer, can't you? We have something like that already on the Pandora. Also, you can click and drag using the same setup that the Pandora does: left stick movement, right stick left, up, right are left click, middle click, right click respectively.
-God Ginrai
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Are you sure the left nub right-clicks and the right nub left-clicks and not the other way around? I'd think that could be a bit award. I do like the idea being able to control the mouse with one nub and scroll (assuming both vertically and horizontally) using the other nub, though.
levi
Still fresh, damnit!
Yes, that does seem a bit weird, but it makes sense (for right-handed users at least). We use the left button on mice held in our right hand as for most people the first finger is slightly dominant. But right thumb is clearly dominant over left, so that makes sense.
Only application I can think of for right-dragging is RISC OS, where it's used similar to a ctrl+drag on Windows or Linux, to do an additive range selection in the file browser (the filer, in RISC OS talk)
Only application I can think of for right-dragging is RISC OS, where it's used similar to a ctrl+drag on Windows or Linux, to do an additive range selection in the file browser (the filer, in RISC OS talk)
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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Maybe the nubs on the Pyra will be improved over those that were in the Open Pandora? Either way, since there are USB ports, one could always plug in a real mouse (I have an old usb TrackMan Wheel would probably work great for super serious mousing needs) unless I'm mistaken.
IIRC from previous discussions, you can actually click the nub while moving it, just not in its complete range -- but while dragging you don't often need to make very quick mouse movements, so it may be good enough.
We could also make it so that e.g. AltGr + left click becomes right click, or something like that.
I wouldn't worry about it: it will certainly be better than on the Pandora.
Now can we go back to discussing the keyboard layout?
There is Saber's proposal in the ever-changing first post, and my latest proposal is here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ebd8ba25bb037527d9b08abe2e3aff86
There are other proposals too (e.g. by comradekingu), but I think those are a bit too experimental or unpolished to be realistic actual proposals.
The comparison between Saber's current proposal and my proposal is as follows (let me know if I missed something):
- the unmodified keys are the same, except Saber has BT and wifi toggles as primary keys where I have ESC and backtick, and I have compose instead of right shift
- the shifted keys are the same
- the sym/altGr keys are more or less the same but in a different order (except Saber does not have ², ³, and ç)
- Saber does not indicate shift+AltGr keys while in my layout those are dead key diacritics
- I don't indicate where keyboard backlight keys are located; I propose to put that on Shift+screen backlight
So I don't think there is much difference left at the moment; Saber's layout would be good enough for me, but maybe some more time should be spent to discuss the small differences and details.
We could also make it so that e.g. AltGr + left click becomes right click, or something like that.
I wouldn't worry about it: it will certainly be better than on the Pandora.
Now can we go back to discussing the keyboard layout?
There is Saber's proposal in the ever-changing first post, and my latest proposal is here: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ebd8ba25bb037527d9b08abe2e3aff86
There are other proposals too (e.g. by comradekingu), but I think those are a bit too experimental or unpolished to be realistic actual proposals.
The comparison between Saber's current proposal and my proposal is as follows (let me know if I missed something):
- the unmodified keys are the same, except Saber has BT and wifi toggles as primary keys where I have ESC and backtick, and I have compose instead of right shift
- the shifted keys are the same
- the sym/altGr keys are more or less the same but in a different order (except Saber does not have ², ³, and ç)
- Saber does not indicate shift+AltGr keys while in my layout those are dead key diacritics
- I don't indicate where keyboard backlight keys are located; I propose to put that on Shift+screen backlight
So I don't think there is much difference left at the moment; Saber's layout would be good enough for me, but maybe some more time should be spent to discuss the small differences and details.
WizardStan
Mega GP Mania
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- May 24, 2008
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- 16,731
God Ginrai
Godmaster
EvilDragon specifically mentioned on multiple occasions that the nubs could only be clicked in the center and as such would not be able to be used to perform click-and-drag actions with one nub. He's the one who suggested the click w/ one nub, drag w/ the other idea.
-God Ginrai
levi
Still fresh, damnit!
If you can slowly drag while clicking, that's probably a fair limitation. Only occasion I can think where you'd like to be able to mouse fast while clicking is in FPSes and twinstick shooters, and if the Pandora is anything to go by we'll have native engines for the former which can move shoot to a trigger or a button, and if any twinstick shooters get ported, I'd hope those could have their keys redefined too.
Of your layout _wb_, I'm still not keen on putting buttons on the hardware keys. Although which way round at the labels on those? I have been reading it as Esc is shift Wifi, and tilde is shift 3G (and god knows how you get to backtick), but perhaps that's wrong. Is it meant that the second hardware button is backtick normally, or shift tilde, or AltGr 3G? I think I have less of an issue with it that way round.
Or indeed, are they meant to be there at all? I've just spotted tilde and backtick on the keyboard section.
However, what's the deal with the + and - gaming buttons? The other gaming buttons have their real keybindings at the bottom and their gaming interpretation center. Are those buttons default + and -, or default Insert/Delete?
And ED did want left and right shift buttons, so I assume he's intending to design it to be touch-typable moreso than the Pandora.
On Saber's layout we're missing some lesser used symbols like forward tick, though to be honest I'm struggling to find forward tick on this PC keyboard. I'd really like the Sym key to be on one of the shoulder buttons though, as on the Pandora I find chording left shoulder and button to get upper case really handy, and I use a lot of those symbols pretty regularly.
I note on the Pandora that the symbols you can get through shifting all require me to adjust the hold of my Pandora. The left and right shift keys should make it easier to type < or > for example, so that's good to see. Good to see keypad brightness controls too.
Of your layout _wb_, I'm still not keen on putting buttons on the hardware keys. Although which way round at the labels on those? I have been reading it as Esc is shift Wifi, and tilde is shift 3G (and god knows how you get to backtick), but perhaps that's wrong. Is it meant that the second hardware button is backtick normally, or shift tilde, or AltGr 3G? I think I have less of an issue with it that way round.
Or indeed, are they meant to be there at all? I've just spotted tilde and backtick on the keyboard section.
However, what's the deal with the + and - gaming buttons? The other gaming buttons have their real keybindings at the bottom and their gaming interpretation center. Are those buttons default + and -, or default Insert/Delete?
And ED did want left and right shift buttons, so I assume he's intending to design it to be touch-typable moreso than the Pandora.
On Saber's layout we're missing some lesser used symbols like forward tick, though to be honest I'm struggling to find forward tick on this PC keyboard. I'd really like the Sym key to be on one of the shoulder buttons though, as on the Pandora I find chording left shoulder and button to get upper case really handy, and I use a lot of those symbols pretty regularly.
I note on the Pandora that the symbols you can get through shifting all require me to adjust the hold of my Pandora. The left and right shift keys should make it easier to type < or > for example, so that's good to see. Good to see keypad brightness controls too.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/7ff84a63b8de0fd41e475633b56516ac INTL layout rev 16
moved ;, and :. where they are supposed to be. typing field is now fully typewriter-esque. Anyone who can work one of those can fully input text. ctrl alt and altGR on middlekeys.
moved ;, and :. where they are supposed to be. typing field is now fully typewriter-esque. Anyone who can work one of those can fully input text. ctrl alt and altGR on middlekeys.
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levi
Still fresh, damnit!
Prev/Next/Play/Pause/Stop aren't standard keyboard buttons. Are they media keys? If so, is there only one set of shift/ctrl? And if your FN buttons are already shifted, how do you do Shift+FN button? Also, what's alttab?
Not bad otherwise. I like the idea of multiplexing the d-pad with alt-gr. I don't think you can multiplex it twice though - shift+direction is definitely a common combination.
Not bad otherwise. I like the idea of multiplexing the d-pad with alt-gr. I don't think you can multiplex it twice though - shift+direction is definitely a common combination.
God Ginrai
Godmaster
Dear god this is horrible. Why are you wasting space on media keys? Second of all, where the hell are your arrow keys? The Dpad is supposed to be the arrow keys.
-God Ginrai
