Unofficial Keyboard Layouts
- Thread starter Saber
- Start date
comradekingu
Glowing ember
That is an argument for having altGR and the like, which is not a very integral way of inputting language.
With limited resources in terms of buttons available, what one has to work with is a case of less means more complexity in terms of input methods on the same keys.
Stateless or not, something must be done. Just as modifiers arent integral on a basic level, inversly L 1 2 and R 1 2 are very integral keys to the device.
I think media buttons and the mentioned space return , and . is more in tune seeing as this makes the typing experience into a 6 finger event rather than just the two.
It fortifies the handheld position, as it makes input on 10 finger impossible.
Which function to bind to which L or R isnt given, and you end up having to equally learn the hard way something that isn't intuitive. I can see the symbol, but i don't know where to get to it. Is worse than i see the letters, space must be somewhere.
6 fingers to type is more fluid than 2 and sometimes (rarely) having to go +4.
Another thing to have on L/R would be media buttons, play/pause, prev next and stop. In a closed position altGR is useless, but thats when i see the device as a primarily media-centric device, for which media buttons are usefull. Sound for the most part, but maybe also a presentation device.
Learning media buttons in a handheld state and having it available when the lid is closed is a great transfer function.
I dont really like modifier keys, especially custom ones. Instead a non-stateless mode-switch key is more natural to me. It would change everything but the keyboard to get the best of both from a media/game mode to input/browsing. The input switcher is in that area, so it makes sense for it to change only the gamepad and L R.
With two states the L and R could be their function ingame for how they are known to work, and mediabuttons also, which you dont really "need"
If it isnt 3 states with space and such too in one mode, the media-keys could be stateless modifier based buttons, at which point the non-stateless modifier argument crumbles.
Except, modifying with combos on mediakeys is not a common practice, and im having a little trouble picking that idea up mentally. On that token, id rather have scrolling and alt+tab's on dpad non-stateless, and then we are back to modes.
Its interesting to explore these options, and while im leaning towards all in on this drastic variation atm, i think there is much to yet find out and try.
What esentially im trying to do http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3b971382c90ab86b2aa83168386fa6b0 is -3 amount of keys away from trying to swing something on A-Z alone. Its a slippery slope from there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#National_variants Germany, the whole of scandinavia, spain, france etc etc. They all use those keys, and the list is much longer.
It doesnt matter so much whats on the keys so much as they are there as buttons. If the button pressings are neutral they could be bonus keys for anyone else, something to use as press to speak in mumble or a screensaver button/ whatever you wish.
Also, whatever approach to having a set number of other keys, comes up 1 key short for me, or messes with conventions too much. Even when you do away with useless things such as caps lock.
In the original the white and black looked very stylish, which I feel the latter version is more quilty of implementing. Im glad that idea came into frutition on wb's effort, because it really cleans up the place.
Following that logic is not polluting other areas with chars. That is also a "free" idea that doesn't become systemic.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/863c0f526d79e1eac6eb786a44aaf7bf I also dont understand why ^ and so on is replacing &, thus shifting the /()= along where it doesnt belong. That is not US or US intl layout http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_and_American_keyboards#PC_keyboards so it becomes not fish nor fowl, because altGR is a intl addition.
That was wrong, I am sorry, brain malfunction. 8 is ( and 9 is ) only on norwegian and german keyboards,
( edit: for reference its !"#¤%&/()=?` was thinking of this in remapping the ones that fall in between, in regards also to putting the F-row on numbers so you end up having to juggle a little anyhow, best to cast the odd balls in the air)
possibly others, but i agree that the standard is therein the US and UK one
With limited resources in terms of buttons available, what one has to work with is a case of less means more complexity in terms of input methods on the same keys.
Stateless or not, something must be done. Just as modifiers arent integral on a basic level, inversly L 1 2 and R 1 2 are very integral keys to the device.
I think media buttons and the mentioned space return , and . is more in tune seeing as this makes the typing experience into a 6 finger event rather than just the two.
It fortifies the handheld position, as it makes input on 10 finger impossible.
Which function to bind to which L or R isnt given, and you end up having to equally learn the hard way something that isn't intuitive. I can see the symbol, but i don't know where to get to it. Is worse than i see the letters, space must be somewhere.
6 fingers to type is more fluid than 2 and sometimes (rarely) having to go +4.
Another thing to have on L/R would be media buttons, play/pause, prev next and stop. In a closed position altGR is useless, but thats when i see the device as a primarily media-centric device, for which media buttons are usefull. Sound for the most part, but maybe also a presentation device.
Learning media buttons in a handheld state and having it available when the lid is closed is a great transfer function.
I dont really like modifier keys, especially custom ones. Instead a non-stateless mode-switch key is more natural to me. It would change everything but the keyboard to get the best of both from a media/game mode to input/browsing. The input switcher is in that area, so it makes sense for it to change only the gamepad and L R.
With two states the L and R could be their function ingame for how they are known to work, and mediabuttons also, which you dont really "need"
If it isnt 3 states with space and such too in one mode, the media-keys could be stateless modifier based buttons, at which point the non-stateless modifier argument crumbles.
Except, modifying with combos on mediakeys is not a common practice, and im having a little trouble picking that idea up mentally. On that token, id rather have scrolling and alt+tab's on dpad non-stateless, and then we are back to modes.
Its interesting to explore these options, and while im leaning towards all in on this drastic variation atm, i think there is much to yet find out and try.
What esentially im trying to do http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/3b971382c90ab86b2aa83168386fa6b0 is -3 amount of keys away from trying to swing something on A-Z alone. Its a slippery slope from there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout#National_variants Germany, the whole of scandinavia, spain, france etc etc. They all use those keys, and the list is much longer.
It doesnt matter so much whats on the keys so much as they are there as buttons. If the button pressings are neutral they could be bonus keys for anyone else, something to use as press to speak in mumble or a screensaver button/ whatever you wish.
Also, whatever approach to having a set number of other keys, comes up 1 key short for me, or messes with conventions too much. Even when you do away with useless things such as caps lock.
In the original the white and black looked very stylish, which I feel the latter version is more quilty of implementing. Im glad that idea came into frutition on wb's effort, because it really cleans up the place.
Following that logic is not polluting other areas with chars. That is also a "free" idea that doesn't become systemic.
That was wrong, I am sorry, brain malfunction. 8 is ( and 9 is ) only on norwegian and german keyboards,
( edit: for reference its !"#¤%&/()=?` was thinking of this in remapping the ones that fall in between, in regards also to putting the F-row on numbers so you end up having to juggle a little anyhow, best to cast the odd balls in the air)
possibly others, but i agree that the standard is therein the US and UK one
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God Ginrai
Godmaster
That would not work well as an emulator menu button. Normally you want to keep control of the direction your character is moving right up to the last minute as you freeze gameplay. To use the spacebar in that position, I would have to remove my thumb from the dpad, hence preventing that from working.
-God Ginrai
I have no idea what you're talking about. The shift-numbers row !@#$%^&*() is standard.
slaeshjag
¯\_(ツ)_/¯
Not really. On a german keyboard, the shift numbers row is !, ", §, $, %, &, /, (, ), =
On a scandinavian keyboard, it's !, ", #, ¤, %, &, /, (, ), =
Etc..
Depends on what you define as standard though, I guess.
I'm guessing Kingu just didn't look properly on the images
On a scandinavian keyboard, it's !, ", #, ¤, %, &, /, (, ), =
Etc..
Depends on what you define as standard though, I guess.
I'm guessing Kingu just didn't look properly on the images
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Yes of course in every layout it is different, on Belgian keyboards it is &, é, ", ', (, §, è, !, ç, à, ), - and this is extremely weird especially if you only use it to write English and Dutch, since then you don't really need those French characters éèàç, and it is also very annoying that it is completely different from QWERTY.Not really. On a german keyboard, the shift numbers row is !, ", §, $, %, &, /, (, ), =
On a scandinavian keyboard, it's !, ", #, ¤, %, &, /, (, ), =
Etc..
Depends on what you define as standard though, I guess.
I'm guessing Kingu just didn't look properly on the images
I think it's fair to say that if anything is the standard, it's US QWERTY. At our department, which is located in Belgium, only a minority of my colleagues use Belgian keyboards, most people use QWERTY. In the PC rooms for students there are very often two physical keyboards per computer, one Belgian keyboard and one QWERTY keyboard. I'm not sure which ones are most used by the students, but the fact alone that both options are available is telling.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
In this case adhering to said "standard" means excluding most other people when its not even mutually exclusive.
You can do international layout and have US layout covered, as A-Z is a subset of that. The point im returning to harping on is that anything besides having those keys at the ready for the majority of the pyra customers, suck immensely, albeit in differing amounts. The exception to this perceived suckiness being murrica'-n english and UK eeeeinglish layout, which for some reason came one after the other without any thought spared for _others_.
Wow im not awake, im using norwegian layout with german keycaps, didnt notice they are even different from each other.
Its a strange world, and belgian layout certainly makes it no less so. Sure, you dont need to be able to enunciate words, something the anglos have long since figured out. However both german and french are official belgian languages, so its either belgia itself thats weird, or the varied peoples of which it constitutes.
The lowdown is this, they use one intl char, but then have only 6 keys on the bottom row...
Edit: Moved F row above home row, since that has the correct amount of keys. Also then you dont need 3 composers for the number row. (Nor for the row its moved to)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/337763ef4fd29152214fbee1885edd90
INTL rev 10
You can do international layout and have US layout covered, as A-Z is a subset of that. The point im returning to harping on is that anything besides having those keys at the ready for the majority of the pyra customers, suck immensely, albeit in differing amounts. The exception to this perceived suckiness being murrica'-n english and UK eeeeinglish layout, which for some reason came one after the other without any thought spared for _others_.
Wow im not awake, im using norwegian layout with german keycaps, didnt notice they are even different from each other.
Its a strange world, and belgian layout certainly makes it no less so. Sure, you dont need to be able to enunciate words, something the anglos have long since figured out. However both german and french are official belgian languages, so its either belgia itself thats weird, or the varied peoples of which it constitutes.
The lowdown is this, they use one intl char, but then have only 6 keys on the bottom row...
Edit: Moved F row above home row, since that has the correct amount of keys. Also then you dont need 3 composers for the number row. (Nor for the row its moved to)
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/337763ef4fd29152214fbee1885edd90
INTL rev 10
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I think there is no real opposition to have the default layout be as close as possible to QWERTY. The differences begin when considering how to enable alternative layouts for special use cases. There the number of keys is one of the most limiting factors and the insistence on wasting precious key space (over 5%) on a double wide space key and a staggered layout (which may simplify the design - I don't know -, but is only useful for touch typing, since rotating the thumb leads to a vertical movement above the keyboard area and becomes diagonal only in the game control area) isn't helping. But it seems ED wants it this way (like keeping the size and distance) and therefore the Pyra keyboard will probably suck as much as the Pandora's for non English text input (especially if there remain UI elements where the compose key isn't working like in several Qt based apps, e.g. PNDManager and Trojita). I can live with that because I use it primarily for shell and source code, and being conservative is not neccessarily a bad thing (there are enough new things in the design to worry about), but since the keyboard is one of the defining features of the Pyra I was hoping for more.
The staggered layout is not only useful for touch typing. I don't know why, but it helps to put keys where my mind expects them to be and it helps a lot for blind thumb typing. A staggered layout is a very good thing. I absolutely hate non-staggered grid layouts for keyboards.
Cramming in more keys (e.g. small space bar, making the keys smaller, no staggering, etc) of course has advantages, but it also has disadvantages.
If you really want international keys, you can always do something like the Belgian layout: map the number row to letters and require shift (or AltGr) to use them to input numbers. That gives you 10 "international keys", at the price of needing shift (or caps lock) to input numbers. This was not really possible before on the Pandora because the number row was relatively hard to reach and far away of the main keyboard.
Cramming in more keys (e.g. small space bar, making the keys smaller, no staggering, etc) of course has advantages, but it also has disadvantages.
If you really want international keys, you can always do something like the Belgian layout: map the number row to letters and require shift (or AltGr) to use them to input numbers. That gives you 10 "international keys", at the price of needing shift (or caps lock) to input numbers. This was not really possible before on the Pandora because the number row was relatively hard to reach and far away of the main keyboard.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
The number of keys makes it staggered naturally, you dont need a doublespace to do that. I use it on pandora as if one side is space and the other is tab. For all intents and purposes it could be two buttons, which would be much easier.
Also the doublespace ruins the colourscheme symmetry for similarly not so good reason. "full space" in this sense is something you inserted into the discussion, because there is no double thumb action implied here, nor is the pun intended.
One does not simply do anything like the belgian layout if there are other options, it was painful to watch.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/82dc25eec9bc19cdf3f5590ca9beee5a Updated one with how i envisioned the IO button to work, little rough still.
INTL rev 11
Another update, almost works http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5489df37b84bc812547af2d3e036a2ee
rev 12
If the space enter , . is always on the keyboard and never on the LR then its only the play pause skip stop buttons that have to move way for the L R buttonevents in game mode, and thats expected.
Between having ^ : * root + and - on the gamepad as symbols and gamepad events there, you only lose the ability to type those things. I dont know the extent you need ^ as a modifier, but its only a IO-press away.
Not sexy but it works.
Downfall: makes it harder to do <>
Ummmmmm, no, actually not, there are more problems, have to look into it, but its getting somewhere.
Throwing out the combo symbol on gamepad and instead moving them to the vacant keyboard places means one has to use the button to the left of Ü as ^ which is standard.
The IOswitch is then for
1. dpad , which you for writing dont _really_ need because you can use the second nub for directions.
2. the L/R which only goes from mediabuttons to gamebuttons
IOswitch then becomes gameswitch, possibly with a mode in between where the mediabuttons are enter space , . Because that is the only function one really stands to lose without also throwing babies along with bathwater.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f6b1f447bcfacc54dd7fc3014052a0dc
rev 13
would work. Only now it needs a button combo event to trigger the difference in between the two.
Also the doublespace ruins the colourscheme symmetry for similarly not so good reason. "full space" in this sense is something you inserted into the discussion, because there is no double thumb action implied here, nor is the pun intended.
One does not simply do anything like the belgian layout if there are other options, it was painful to watch.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/82dc25eec9bc19cdf3f5590ca9beee5a Updated one with how i envisioned the IO button to work, little rough still.
INTL rev 11
Another update, almost works http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5489df37b84bc812547af2d3e036a2ee
rev 12
If the space enter , . is always on the keyboard and never on the LR then its only the play pause skip stop buttons that have to move way for the L R buttonevents in game mode, and thats expected.
Between having ^ : * root + and - on the gamepad as symbols and gamepad events there, you only lose the ability to type those things. I dont know the extent you need ^ as a modifier, but its only a IO-press away.
Not sexy but it works.
Downfall: makes it harder to do <>
Ummmmmm, no, actually not, there are more problems, have to look into it, but its getting somewhere.
- The alt's arent direct then.
Throwing out the combo symbol on gamepad and instead moving them to the vacant keyboard places means one has to use the button to the left of Ü as ^ which is standard.
The IOswitch is then for
1. dpad , which you for writing dont _really_ need because you can use the second nub for directions.
2. the L/R which only goes from mediabuttons to gamebuttons
IOswitch then becomes gameswitch, possibly with a mode in between where the mediabuttons are enter space , . Because that is the only function one really stands to lose without also throwing babies along with bathwater.
- Alts still not resolved.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/f6b1f447bcfacc54dd7fc3014052a0dc
rev 13
would work. Only now it needs a button combo event to trigger the difference in between the two.
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If you really want to split the space bar, something like this might be a good idea:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/28760fc438efed4cf13417dda5c1fb95
so we get a dedicated slash key out of it, which together with the dedicated tab key will make shell life much nicer.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of space being a key like any other though. Yes, it has advantages for remappers. But a big friendly space bar is also nice.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/28760fc438efed4cf13417dda5c1fb95
so we get a dedicated slash key out of it, which together with the dedicated tab key will make shell life much nicer.
I'm not sure if I like the idea of space being a key like any other though. Yes, it has advantages for remappers. But a big friendly space bar is also nice.
Majin Wamu
Powered by Pixels
I think the spacebar should be wider as it is on most keyboards. The size that it was on the Open Pandora was fine. One of the biggest reasons for me, not only to use it as a way to space out my words, is the fact that it was used by most emulators to switch over to the menu in-game. Making it bigger makes it easier to hit without having to look down at the keyboard to make sure you aren't hitting any other keys. So in other words, it easier to hit and harder to miss without looking. It definitely helps me out a lot.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/584b7f5b8594157f13f0e791ae1295fd Centered everything now.
INTL rev 14
wb: not bad, much nicer on the eye when the spacebar isnt off center with that non symmetric shape. A big enter is also nice, but thats also small, so the whole space idea isnt something to lose remappers over.
Also, one could produce multiple buttonmats, then its a little bit daft to end up at -1 key because the space _has_ to be big. Every key counts.
Canned the two layouts style, also updated colours slightly, some cleanup
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c2e70dd627659f92747ffc605f52047d
rev 15
INTL rev 14
wb: not bad, much nicer on the eye when the spacebar isnt off center with that non symmetric shape. A big enter is also nice, but thats also small, so the whole space idea isnt something to lose remappers over.
Also, one could produce multiple buttonmats, then its a little bit daft to end up at -1 key because the space _has_ to be big. Every key counts.
Canned the two layouts style, also updated colours slightly, some cleanup
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/c2e70dd627659f92747ffc605f52047d
rev 15
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Gave the keys a more realistic aspect ratio (they will not be square on the Pyra!) and played a bit with tab/enter/shift/compose to make them bigger.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/83a3773ecb2268b73122fdd372c58e66
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/83a3773ecb2268b73122fdd372c58e66
Yes, I think so too. But maybe we should make a poll about that?
Anyway, here's a double-width space version: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ebd8ba25bb037527d9b08abe2e3aff86
I know your Version with old space bar.
It's good.
Saber's version as well.
I think if we'll get the advantages out of both layouts then it's fine.
God Ginrai
Godmaster
I agree with Askarus. We should keep the size of the old space bar.
-God Ginrai
-God Ginrai
Can you tell me some of the things you like about Saber's version that are lacking in my proposal? I would be interested in making a hybrid proposal but I don't know where to start...
