The big Pyra keyboard poll

Single-width or double-width space key?


  • Total voters
    119

Saber, the Q-P row _isnt_ shifted over to the edge to fit some foreign alphabeticals.  It is smack bang in the center of a full layout, which everyone has.

Foreign to you isnt an argument for the majority of people, which is how they voted in the matter.

If you are wondering if this works, try a desktop keyboard, it is the most important factor of a functional layout. Shifting it is what _breaks_ that, like it is on the pandora.

If you think its bad to have all punctuation over on the side of space, or a 1key space for that matter. Try it. I can guarantee that it is more effective than slalom-typing.

Not slaloming is the basis of what makes a 105key work, notice i said work, not how it looks to the untrained eye. Bringing 105-key looks into the picture is a false design-metric, it makes for a worse keyboard.
 
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Saber, the Q-P row _isnt_ shifted over to the edge to fit some foreign alphabeticals.  It is smack bang in the center of a full layout, which everyone has.

Foreign to you isnt an argument for the majority of people, which is how they voted in the matter.

If you are wondering if this works, try a desktop keyboard, it is the most important factor of a functional layout. Shifting it is what _breaks_ that, like it is on the pandora.

If you think its bad to have all punctuation over on the side of space, or a 1key space for that matter. Try it. I can guarantee that it is more effective than slalom-typing.
I'm not worried about a full desktop experience only the condensed handheld version of it. Heck, if you guys need to remap like crazy to get a few more keys to the left of Q-P and A-L then that's up to you all. I want a standard keyboard I can use comfortably in my hands that doesn't try to cater to every foreign language out there by moving requisite A-Z over for some locale vowels with glyphs added over them which can simply be remapped to the few spots needed.

I updated the unofficial layout thread in my sig with just such a left centered layout to illustrate just what you lose out on over what you want to gain. If you think the Version 3 I did up with the changes you vocal few and I presume ED require for this full functionality is superior to the other two versions I posted there, then so be it. Compare the three and maybe you'll see or maybe you won't. For anyone on the fence about this, you should also take a look. You won't squeeze much more out of the left centered layout I created but you'll get much more with the other two I put up. ;)
 
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He also voted for no dedicated Tab, Insert, Delete(maybe), or Escape
Not voting for them does not mean he voted not to have them.  I took that section to be asking what keys do you find need to be dedicated.  I voted accordingly, and others probably voted based on their understanding or preference.  I initially skipped tab, then remembered I use it for certain key combos, and I don't really need delete or escape, but they are useful for the same reason.  I rarely use insert.
Not to be nitpicky here rygD but it said "Which of these keys should be available as dedicated, primary keys?". If he selected some keys but not others then how could it be interpreted that he wants the one's he didn't choose?
I didn't say he was stating he wants them by not voting for them.  That he voted and is entertaining various keyboard layouts shows that he is flexible with the layout.  To be more explicit, I see that section being used to gauge which keys are most important to people.  By someone being fine with hitting a modifier and backspace to get delete and escape does not mean they find keys dedicated for those unacceptable.  ED didn't select any toggle keys.  Do you interpret that as him wanting there to be no toggle keys?
 
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I like have action buttons as mouse buttons, and nubs as move mouse / scroll.

Perhaps with the new buttons as home and end
I agree, since I plan tu use my Pyra without touching the screen, once accostumed I'll be able to click moving the mouse and since you can only push the nub when it is centered it would be an issue, plus there is no need for PgUp since you can use right nub for scrolling.

The perfect intuitive combinaison (IMO) would be:

Left nub as mouse and whatever

Right nub as scrolling and scroll button click

Left action button as right left click

High action button as right click (because it is more ergonomic than left)

Also I like the idea to leave action buttons without function label because I like hidden functions and so that we may could chose whatever we want for nubs/action buttons.
You can use ABMouse pnd to have AB action buttons to act as left and right mouse click now on pandora.
 
He also voted for no dedicated Tab, Insert, Delete(maybe), or Escape
Not voting for them does not mean he voted not to have them.  I took that section to be asking what keys do you find need to be dedicated.  I voted accordingly, and others probably voted based on their understanding or preference.  I initially skipped tab, then remembered I use it for certain key combos, and I don't really need delete or escape, but they are useful for the same reason.  I rarely use insert.
Not to be nitpicky here rygD but it said "Which of these keys should be available as dedicated, primary keys?". If he selected some keys but not others then how could it be interpreted that he wants the one's he didn't choose?
I didn't say he was stating he wants them by not voting.  That he voted and is entertaining various keyboard layouts shows that he is flexible with the layout.  To be more explicit, I see that section being used to gauge which keys are most important to people.  By someone being fine with hitting a modifier and backspace to get delete and escape does not mean they find keys dedicated for those unacceptable.  ED didn't select any toggle keys.  Do you interpret that as him wanting there to be no toggle keys?
I only know what ED decided to check off a box for in that grouping and what he didn't place a mark for. I can't assume any more outside of that until he does a long overdo post on the subject. For the brightness toggles, it could be he hasn't figured out what he'll use those top four keys for after seeing the other layout proposals uses for them so he abstained from voting, but that's irrelevant for what I was getting at.
 
I think the upper of the new game buttons should be right click, and the lower one should be insert or delete. Right nub hould be scroll, and pressing it in should be middle click.
 
Here is my first attempt at a compromise layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/52347d35841f93454a1528b3748e0f37

Note: the above layout has several properties I don't like, such as a double-width space bar, no Greek action buttons, no dedicated backtick(grave) key. It will probably also have properties that you don't like. It's an attempt at making most people as happy as possible.
Ahem. Putting this gently... Dear God no. Burn it with fire please.

It isn't the alphabet shifting to the left that I abhor on it - it's the proximity of Delete and Enter to each other - and that Insert is hidden behind a function layer making ctrl-ins and shift-ins a royal pita.

Insert and Delete BELONG together with Page Up, Page Down, Home and End. Putting them where you currently have + and - is a -natural- position in the layout - regardless of language set. Note their position on the progenitor of all things good in keyboards: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_M_keyboard They are part and parcel to that set of 6 keys - which fits perfectly into our 6 key layout. What you currently have is the equivalent of having up, down and left arrows with pipe | on the left game pad instead of right arrow - it's a broken set.

But for all that is sane - please put some physical space between Delete and Enter. It's far too dangerous of a miss-key. Where we have such a perfect location to put it in the right 6 button game controls, I don't understand why it's even an issue or question of where to put ins and del.
 
^What if backspace and delete were switched? Insert would stay put though.
 
The single wide space bar is essential for many keymaps. This is a MUST have.

I don't really care how the default keymap is arranged, I plan to re-map it anyway, but I must have the single wide space bar, or this will be impossible.

ED should sell the keymats with the keycaps not installed + a tube of the appropriate glue so those that care that their keymap matches what is on the keys can get anything they want.

There was a missing option in the poll, for me the action buttons MUST be mouse buttons, but since this is remappable, I don't care what you put there, I'll just change it when I get it.

Those who want a double wide space bar will still be able to use it even if it has a single wide space key. Those who need a single wide space key won't be able to use the keyboard if it has a double wide key.

I rarely use the Pandora keyboard precisely because of this problem, there is no way for me to map a dvorak keymap to the Pandora. Please don't repeat this mistake.
 
Only 6 people have voted for the any key.  At this rate we will be screwed when using certain software.
 
Only 6 people have voted for the any key.  At this rate we will be screwed when using certain software.
What is the 'any key'?  I didn't read every single post in the keyboard discussions, so I don't know what this key's purpose is. 

-Glyph Reader
 
It is a joke. The 'any' key is the key you press when software asks you to "Press any key to continue."
...that sparks my memory slightly.  I remember some sort of discussion about that particular joke, but I thought it was on a different forum. 

-Glyph Reader
 
I really really dislike that the qwerty-row is shifted. I won't be able to type any of my passwords on that keyboard.
Yes, that is a very unfortunate side-effect of a left-aligned QWERTY row. Would you sacrifice your Scandinavian keys (I forgot who needs what, but three out of Ä Ö Ø Æ Å iirc) just to get a correct alignment between letters and numbers?
I have since long given up hope on having space for such keys without modifiers. If the modifier is a shoulderbutton and enough blank spots are given, I can live with holding shoulder. It's already a lot better than the horrible compose mess of the pandora. Unaligned numbers and qwerty is a nogo for me. Though, I guess it wouldn't be a massive job to cut up a keymat and rearrange it properly...
Why did you give up hope on that? Most of my and comradekingu's proposals are designed with exactly that in mind.

Are there any others who consider the correct/standard alignment between the letter and the number rows to be crucial?

I don't think it's hugely important, but maybe I'm biased because on the Pandora the number row is so far away from the rest that it's alignment is irrelevant.

Correct alignment of the letter rows w.r.t. the number row implies a centered layout. I personally have no problem with a centered layout since I don't need the extra P+2 and L+2 keys (for me, efficient compose / dead diacritics are a better approach), but I don't know if correct number row alignment is worth making it impossible to get Ü Ö Ä or whatever in their normal spots.
 
Which of these modifiers should be available on the shoulder buttons?

there is a none option missing, for me all of them could but none of them should :D

Oh it also suprises me only 14 people like to kill this discussion with fire :D maybe the other voters have a better method?
 
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Here is an attempt at a centered compromise layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4aacf9586543ff0686f4ef55309c7e11

Some people may question the dedicated keys for ` ~ and to a lesser extent '  " (apostrophe is the most important punctuation symbol in casual English, double quote in formal English after comma, period and hyphen/dash), but those are crucial to compensate for the lack of P+2 and L+2 keys, since they have a double use as dead diacritics in my layout proposal. After all, remapping P+2 and L+2 only gives you four extra letters. Many languages need much more than that anyway.

Pyra+' is dead acute accent, so the French can make their é, the Bulgarians, Catalan, Dutch, Portuguese, Spanish, Norwegian, Swedish, Danish and Welsh can add stress or emphasis to their vowels and disambiguate some words, the Czech, Hungarians, Irish and Slovaks can mark their long vowels, the Polish, Serbo-Croatian and Macedonians can indicate their palatalization, and the Faroese, Icelandic, Turkmen, Pashto and Northern Sámi can make their extra letters. Even in English it is used for French loan words like attaché, blasé, canapé, cliché, communiqué, café, décor, déjà vu, détente, élite, entrée, exposé, mêlée, fiancé, fiancée, papier-mâché, passé, pâté, piqué, plié, repoussé, résumé, risqué, sauté, roué, séance, naïveté, toupée and touché. Also Japanese loan words like saké and Pokémon are spelled with acute accents.

Pyra+" is dead umlaut (aka diaeresis or trema), so the Germans can make their ü ä ö, as well as the Azerbaijani, Estonian, Finnish, Hungarian, Slovak, Swedish and Turkish. It is also used to indicate that two adjacent vowels are pronounced separately, e.g. in names like Chloë and Zoë and in some words in English (naïve for example), French, Dutch, Welsh, and Catalan.

Pyra+` is dead grave accent, so the French can make their à è ù, but it is also used in Italian, Bulgarian, Macedonian, Catalan, Norwegian (e.g. og vs òg), Portuguese, Welsh, Scottish Gaelic, Vietnamese, Breton, and Dutch. In English it is only used in poetry and lyrics and in some loaned expressions like vis-à-vis, pièce de résistance and crème brûlée. In LaTeX quotes are written using ``this syntax''.

Pyra+~ is dead tilde, so the Spanish can make their ñ, but it is also used in Portuguese (on vowels), so it is pretty much necessary in most of South America. Also, Estonian, Basque, Breton and Vietnamese. In English it is only used in loan words like jalapeño, piña colada, piñata, and El Niño.

Pyra+^ is dead circumflex (for â ê î ô û), Pyra+, is dead cedilla (for ç ş), ogonek (for ą ę į  ų ) and comma (for ţ ķ ļ ņ ģ), Pyra+. is dead dot (for ċ ġ ė ż), Pyra+* is dead ring (for å ů), Pyra+% is dead stroke (for ø đ ħ ł), Pyra+( is dead breve (for ă ğ), Pyra+V is dead caron/háček (for č š ž ř ď ľ ě ǧ ȟ).

That covers pretty much every language that uses a Latin-based alphabet. Just two are missing: macron and hungarumlaut. I propose the following scheme: tilt your head to the right (as if you're looking at a smiley, but the other way around) and look at the symbol on the right of the key. Now press Shift+Pyra (both left shoulder buttons) to get that as a dead key, according to this scheme (example given with the letter a):


A\ S| D/ F< G> 9( 0) X¤ 8* N= .:
á ā à ǎ â ă ȃ å å a̋ ä

I think that with these provisions for international letters (basically accented letter can be produced with just two thumb presses), we don't really need the P+2 and L+2 positions anymore. Of course if you need particular letters frequently, you may still want to map them to a single thumb press combo, e.g. if you're Norwegian, you could do for example something like Pyra+* is Å (immediately, not dead key ° that still has to be followed by A), Shift+/ is Ø, Shift+\ is Æ, or whatever is convenient for you to remember. If you're German and you can live without Shift+F8 and Shift+F10, then you could for example map Pyra+Shift+{UOAS} to ÜÖÄß. If you're French, you may want to put the numbers at Pyra+number and map those keys to é è ç à in their usual AZERTY spots, with dedicated primary keys for ù and dead circumflex in between somewhere. And so on.

But as a base, default layout, I could certainly live with this. I like the symmetry between Del and Backspace and between grave and acute. The correct alignment of the number row w.r.t. the letter rows is also good to have.
 
its a compromised layout, as in reduced with respect to full.
Full is impossible. Full means having ` - and = on the number row, Tab [ ] \ on the first letter row,  CapsLock ; ' Enter on the second letter row, two Shifts and , . / on the third letter row, and a fourth row with LCtrl LSuper LAlt Space RAlt RSuper Menu and RCtrl on it. We have 46 keys in four rows available in the main block, a full layout requires five rows and at least ten more keys in the main block. Here's the ISO/IEC keyboard specification:

1024px-Keyboard-alphanumeric-section-ISOIEC-9995-2.png


Having D11, D12, C10 and C11 available for remapping is not a full layout, it's only something that goes slightly more in the direction of a full layout. It is impossible to have a full layout give our space restrictions. It will have to be a reduced layout anyway.

There's something to be said for a left-aligned layout, but it's wrong to claim that it's a "full" layout while a centered layout is "reduced". Anything we do has to be severely reduced, there is no other way. The question is not whether to reduce or not, the question is how to reduce.

I focus on getting close to standard US-QWERTY while having decent support for diacritics. I make the assumption that most people are going to use the default layout and want to have key labels that match the key actions.

You focus on having P+2 and L+2 available, so people can map those keys to letters like Å Æ Ø Ü Ä Ö Ç Ñ, since quite a few international layouts are based on QWERTY (or its variants QWERTZ and AZERTY) with some additional letters in those positions. This makes the assumption that people will change the default layout and basically ignore the key labels because they remap the keys to do different things anyway. So they essentially have to type blindly, or somehow remember that Ü is on the key labeled [{, Ö is on the key labeled <>, Ä is on the key labeled Shift, Y and Z are swapped, and ß is perhaps at the key labeled ]}. And either they lose the characters []{}<>, or they have to remember their new location as well. Now if you're that good at blind typing and remembering stuff, does it really matter what the labels on the keys are in the first place? If you're going to do mental gymnastics anyway, then you can just as well add the extra rule "the letters are shifted one to the left compared tot what the labels say".

So, considering all of this, I'm no longer convinced that the layout should be left-aligned. I think centered is also fine.
 
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Only 6 people have voted for the any key.  At this rate we will be screwed when using certain software.
I voted for the Any key because voting for something was required and I honestly don't think any key *needs* to be dedicated, I treated it as a default "none of the above" choice. As long keys are reasonably chorded typing them should be sufficiently simple either way, picking which ones "should" felt wrong as I can think of reasons why all of them should and should not have dedicated keys.
 
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