The big Pyra keyboard poll

[Saber]

Why is the number row in your proposal completely empty with no Meta modifiers?

If you want to ask me questions, then please don't do it by editing them in into an earlier post I already replied to. It's very easy for me to miss the question if you do that.

To answer the question:

- Because that row already has two symbols per key, so to keep the label font big enough, it's good to avoid adding a third symbol.

- Because some standard international layouts (e.g. French, Czech and most other eastern european) use the number row for extra accented letters or diacritics. Not putting a Meta/Pyra/Sym/Fn symbol on that row gives those people the option to remap without having to cascade-move lots of other keys: they can simply put their new keys at Meta+[number row], or at primary number row while moving the original numbers and symbols behind Meta.

Other responses to your questions:

2. The head tilt thing I propose is not unique to my proposal, it is also in an existing US-International layout that comradekingu brought to our attention. Note that it is only really needed for macron and hungarumlaut; two rather rare diacritics. For grave, acute, umlaut, cedilla, circumflex, tilde, dot, ring and stroke you can keep your head straight .

3. You can claim that four dedicated hardware toggles are "meant to be" there, but it looks like only a small minority agrees with you (currently 3 out of 59, which includes you).

4. My layout proposal has Meta/Pyra/Fn/Sym/whateveritiscalled as a shoulder button. If it's not, then it's a different proposal. One that sucks.

5. The word "PageDown" is a bit large to put on a game button, especially if it's in addition to the actual label ("X"). I think icons are better. I don't really care which ones, but the ones I picked are standard ones and they emphasize the symmetry (unlike the diagonal icons for Home and End).

6. The values and number of brightness steps should be configurable. Also, holding the button while using the dpad could give finer grained control.

7. In many standard keyboards, Shift + , . produce ; : and < > are somewhere else. I think that makes more sense, putting the punctuation symbols together. For coding, < and > are obviously used for comparison, but also don't forget input/output redirection, where they fit in with pipe |, and HTML/XML tags <blah>like this</blah>, where they are used as delimiters and fit in with slash /.  I consider them mostly as angled brackets <>, where they fit in with the square brackets [ ] and the curly brackets { }. I associate them with tuples, square brackets with lists/sequences, and curly brackets with sets.

8. Fair point. It's a safe distance from Enter though

9. Caps Lock could easily be added. I don't feel the need though. Especially since you can easily just hold down the shoulder button.

@comradekingu: I'm not sure if not having P+2 and L+2 available really ruins the layout more for non-English speakers than having a misaligned number row w.r.t. the letter rows. Askarus is German, slaeshjag is Swedish, those are two countries that use a P+1 L+2 layout, yet they still prefer a centered layout. There's also a big list of people who don't care (which includes me, though I still need to change my vote I guess).

It's not really fair to call my proposal self-centered or English-focused. I would rather say that it allows many people to just use the default layout and get reasonable efficiency, with the correct labels, while your layout is based on the premise that people don't mind a little mismatch between the labels and what the keys actually do.

Still, some strange ideas in your proposal. Numbers row needing larger font and are unassigned so Czech's might remap diacritics there? Brightness with three level settings? No thank you. PageDown printed on an action button? Never wanted any such thing. Letters ABXY and maybe C and Z or (I) and (II) should suffice.

As to why people voted the way they did for the hardware toggles, it probably wasn't because they wanted BT, HDMI, Wireless Radios on one button, it was that they wished to have a dedicated Escape, Super, and Menu key. 

No worries. We'll just keep agreeing to disagree. 

One last soapbox moment. I'm not fond of putting the main modifier on one of the shoulder buttons. It means the game controls can't be modified(not that we'd have or need to but we could). While my Version 1 layout has only one Meta/Sym key(and can function perfectly with just one since the important punctuation is all to the right), my Version 2 layout has two Meta/Syms. 

 

[comradekingu]

Wb:

If thats the case, how does it change default placement of e to anything other than 2. Its the best we can do. Given how the number row is now so many other things, its hard to incorporate single-key press for specials on number row. Two buttons instead of one isnt efficient. If that was ok the layouts wouldnt all be different.

Then a false dichotomy that is contradicted by the first statement of wanting defaults. (standards)

Germans have ^and a little circle on P+2, i have a german keyboard. A german keyboard is a normal keyboard. It is very normal to have dedicated compose keys. It is not normal to have none, like US international does.

My point is +4 is the most important part, and we are able to cater to that, that accommodates the most important markets, and the most people.

I assume more people are going to do that if they don't have to remap stuff to do it. You are changing the premise of the question as you are asking it.

Scandinavian ^ is a compose-key, same as german, same as the netherlands belgian and french p+1 etc

Edit: it seems german doesnt have ^ on p+2 anymore.

Edit2: I cant find a good reason why +4 is more important than +1+2 anymore.

Edit3: Italian and polish

 

[_wb_]

Oh now I get it, you are calling dead key diacritics "compose keys". That is confusing. I thought you meant this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compose_key

Edit: it seems german doesnt have ^ on p+2 anymore.

Edit2: I cant find a good reason why +4 is more important than +1+2 anymore.

Edit3: Italian and polish

I assume Italians use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Italian_Keyboard_layout.svg

and Polish use this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:KB_Polish_QWERTZ_PN87_Mac.svg

They don't use P+2 for letters.

Can we agree then that P+1 and L+2 is the most important to get right?

I assume more people are going to do that if they don't have to remap stuff to do it. You are changing the premise of the question as you are asking it.

Unless you put empty key labels at the right of P and L, they'll always have to remap stuff.

In your layout, people get dedicated keys for [ ] < Shift Enter where in my layout they get dedicated keys for - Enter / ' Shift.

In your layout, putting Ü Ö Ä "where they belong" implies losing [ { < > and keyboard Shift. I suppose you could make [ { < ? AltGr+Ü/Ö and just live without keyboard Shift.

In my layout, putting different dedicated keys at P+1 and L+2 means you need a modifier (Pyra) to get - / ', which is how it is by default in your layout.

Hyphen (-) and apostrophe (') are the most important punctuation symbols in English and many other languages besides period and comma.

For reference, here are the most important symbols in various uses of English (source here), ordered from most frequent to least frequent:


Prose: e t a o i n h s r d l u m w c y f g , p b . v k ' " - ; ! ? x j q : z _ < > ) ( 1 2 0 4 3 5 9 8 6 7 * [ ] + & / } { % @ $ = ~
Casual: e t a o i n s r h l d c u m g y f p w b . , v k 0 - ' x ) ( 1 j 2 : q " / 5 ! ? z 3 4 6 8 7 9 % [ ] * = + | _ ; \ > $ # ^ & @ < ~ { } `
Programming: e t a r i s n o l c d _ p u f m ( ) g h ; b , = . v x y * " k w - 0 / $ > { } 1 : ' \ 2 q [ ] j & + z < 3 | @ # 4 ! 8 5 6 9 7 % ? ~ ^ `
Formal: e t a i o n s r h l d c u f m p g y w b , v . k - x " ; 1 j q 0 2 ' ) ( z : 9 [ ] 3 4 5 6 8 7 ? ` _ / ! & ^ + % = { * } | ~ > # < @ $
News: e t a i o n s r h l d c u m p f g y w b , . v k " - 0 ' x j 1 z 2 q 9 5 3 8 4 7 : 6 ( ) $ ; | ? / ! & ] [ % @ _ > < * = + #

Overall:
Character Frequency:   SPC e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w ENT b , . v k - " _ ' x ) ( ; 0 j 1 q = 2 : z / * ! ? $ 3 5 > { } 4 9 [ ] 8 6 7 \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~
Letter Frequency:      e t a o i n s r h l d c u m f g p y w b v k x j q z
Punctuation Frequency: , . - " _ ' ) ( ; = : / * ! ? $ > { } [ ] \ + | & < % @ # ^ ` ~
Number Frequency:      0 1 2 3 5 4 9 8 6 7
Big Key Frequency*:    SPACE SHIFT BACKSPACE ENTER TAB

By having dedicated keys for [ ] < but not for more important symbols like - ' /, you're making the layout suboptimal for English speakers and programming.

 

[comradekingu]

Strange about the polish and italian layout.

Yes, p+1 and L+2 are the most important.

The venn diagram for international users does not overlap a whole lot with people who need coding input. And those that do, can swap back and forth. No moving of anything to where it isnt by default.

Havent got time to check sources now

I am thinking abxy+2 is dedicated dash - at least. 

/  is shift+7 on german layout, not saying is optimal, but its workable. I went with something i think is a little better.

A dedicated ' would have been nice. Shift+5 isnt good, but it isnt a fatal flaw. I will add it to the list of weaknesses.

However you are measuring frequency, not efficiency overall. The arrangement has changed with respect to how the data is collected. To your argument it is arbitrary what arrangement the coding input is in.

I think there is a benefit to having it all readily available.

For the case of argument, if you don't have easy access to ' you could write  "do not" instead of "don't".  But yes, people adapting to the layout that way isnt good.

My understanding is that on a two-thumb keyboard the most important thing is what sequences are typed together. We cant do anything about qwerty, but we can do something about punctuation.

Time spent looking for stuff that should have been elsewhere is also not good, no matter how little, if unnecessary it can be avoided and should.

Its a tradeoff betweeen that, efficiency and complexity.   It for example isn't evident to me how I can use pyra to get back / on your layout if i trade it away for international input.

If you end up with anything that trades places, (i dont know whether thats the case) that isnt good by definition. If ive learnt that something is one way, i dont really want to have it be another.

Rather than altGr to reinstate traded input(altGr does other things by default) , I would have a hotkey for swapping languages, that is useful on a level that everyone can get along with.

Functionally simple, functionally pure.

 

[FIQ]

To those concerned about international layouts displacing punctuation - that's that the AltGr key is for - even on a full-size keyboard.

 

[_wb_]

It for example isn't evident to me how I can use pyra to get back / on your layout if i trade it away for international input.

Really? If you map / to, say, Ø, then to get back / you press Pyra+Ø, i.e. Pyra+[the key labeled with the "/" symbol]. Pretty straightforward, no?

* * *

Minor tweak (moved = between < and > for easier <=> <= =< >= => stuff): http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/cdf9fa53d9460c7f3b8bb92ccecb8802

Here's a centered variant: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1c048f1bf019b391180f36176e3033dc

I don't really care about centered or left-aligned: left-aligned is nice for those who plan to remap P+1 L+2, centered is nice since it gets the alignment between number row and letter rows correct. I have a mild preference for left-aligned.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Freed it up a bit, by eliminating ¤ (no longer really needed because you can do Pyra+E for €, Pyra+Y for ¥, Pyra+P for ₤) and by moving PrintScreen to Pyra+Esc.

Now C and N are also freed from Pyra-values.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a38ce19f78a9a45bca6e3ae7296b4ae6

The French can have e.g. à è ù ç œ on Pyra+AEUCO, the Germans can have ü ö ä ß on Pyra+UOAS, and so on. A nice alternative to P+1 L+2 remapping.

Can Alt please be the window movement key this time? It's Shift on the Pandora, and that prevents block selection of files.

 

[_wb_]

Freed it up a bit, by eliminating ¤ (no longer really needed because you can do Pyra+E for €, Pyra+Y for ¥, Pyra+P for ₤) and by moving PrintScreen to Pyra+Esc.

Now C and N are also freed from Pyra-values.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a38ce19f78a9a45bca6e3ae7296b4ae6

The French can have e.g. à è ù ç œ on Pyra+AEUCO, the Germans can have ü ö ä ß on Pyra+UOAS, and so on. A nice alternative to P+1 L+2 remapping.

Can Alt please be the window movement key this time? It's Shift on the Pandora, and that prevents block selection of files.

Sure, why not. Or make it Pyra, so we're sure it does not interfere with anything at all -- some programs (e.g. Gimp) use all combinations of Shift+click, Alt+click and Ctrl+click.

 

[Silent-Hunter]

Sure! Pyra could be a modifier key, unless you're pressing just Pyra, in which case it will allow dragging of windows until you press another key with it.

 

[Hồng Thất Công]

...

These discussions were mostly constructive and I think they have led to a lot of good ideas. But one unfortunate side-effect of huge discussion threads is that after a while, only a small fraction of the community is left to discuss with.

...

I am afraid this thread will be another one of these

 

[Glyph Reader]

...

These discussions were mostly constructive and I think they have led to a lot of good ideas. But one unfortunate side-effect of huge discussion threads is that after a while, only a small fraction of the community is left to discuss with.

...

I am afraid this thread will be another one of these

I really hope that ED will get to this topic soon. 

-Glyph Reader

 

[Saber]

...

These discussions were mostly constructive and I think they have led to a lot of good ideas. But one unfortunate side-effect of huge discussion threads is that after a while, only a small fraction of the community is left to discuss with.

...

I am afraid this thread will be another one of these

I really hope that ED will get to this topic soon. 

-Glyph Reader

I think ED will continue to treat the keyboard layout topic like a red-headed stepchild. 

 

[Granitehead]

...

These discussions were mostly constructive and I think they have led to a lot of good ideas. But one unfortunate side-effect of huge discussion threads is that after a while, only a small fraction of the community is left to discuss with.

...

I am afraid this thread will be another one of these

I was really tempted to open a fake poll thread asking about color and font of key markings.

I mean, what are there right now, three? No way that's enough. Maybe there is still someone who isn't bored by it.

 

[rygD]

I was really tempted to open a fake poll thread asking about color and font of key markings.

Haven't these already been discussed?

 

[comradekingu]

I suppose thats what AltGr really is. Makes sense. So i can put one thing on those keys without penalty.  AltGr+those keys are just duplication anyway.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4e19bbd763cc955ef1cef750a5b74421

Not sure this is any better though, even though frequency suggests so.

Edit: waaaaaaaaaa, it doesnt even make sense

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d68373987613b6c54abf762703f55524

This was hardly any better.

 

[_wb_]

Update: http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/99df1828cfc46c12e8c69c552a2165a7

Tweaked the dead diacritics a bit, also put the comparison operators = < > on the left, put \ | / near one another, added the degree symbol ° since it is available on quite a lot of keyboards and it is useful for Å.

On the letters that are typically affected by diacritics (vowels mostly), there are no Pyra-labels so you can put your own preferred symbols there. Also don't forget that you can use Right Alt as AltGr (if you're willing to give up the shoulder Alt) to get an entirely new layer of symbols if you need it, and Super for yet another layer. (And of course combinations of Shift, Pyra, AltGr and Super).

 

[Granitehead]

I was really tempted to open a fake poll thread asking about color and font of key markings.

Haven't these already been discussed?

Don't know, not that I would have seen it, but a lot can be hidden between those walls of text here.

(hint: I would prefer if some of the developers active in that discussion here would instead concentrate on making a nice system available at launch which has features such as the possibility for users to remap keys per app and the possibility for app developers/porters to set up their default key bindings independent of the keyboard layout)

 

[Rockthesmurf]

This thread is another wall of text, looking at latest proposal, it isn't centred, ctrl looks to be in a hardish to reach place, and space appears to not be big and central. I have tried to at least scan through the posts in this thread, and sounds like a lot of well thought out and researched solutions but still the "stick with what I know" in me is questioning if I would rather keep the current Pandora layout... moving some of the keys around for symbols I can see making sense.


Anyway, the only reason I am posting is because I feel if I don't there might be this idea that no resistance might be seen as everyone agreeing rather than everyone find it all too much and giving up following and commenting.


I find myself asking what would a huge company do for keyboard layout (Sony, Nintendo, Samsung) if they were designing the keyboard for Pyra, and I can't help but think it would be more like Pandora than the current Pyra proposal, take that how you will..

 

[Wally]

I find myself asking what would a huge company do for keyboard layout (Sony, Nintendo, Samsung) if they were designing the keyboard for Pyra, and I can't help but think it would be more like Pandora than the current Pyra proposal, take that how you will..

They'd use a giant trackpad and forget about it

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Touché, hey look how easy accents are to write on my touch phone... (not sure if that is actually how you spell touché and if that is the right accent of course)..