Tales of an Assembly

[Binky]

Indeed, it is.

Clearly I've not been paying enough attention!

I could have sworn there was talk of a software fix for over-sensitive battery protection quite recently. Did I only dream it?

Of course, resistors are user-configurable too, if you have a steady hand and a good soldering iron...

 

[Git1]

There's a recent thread discussing the development of hardware configuration applets, which we shall certainly need. Perhaps a convenient way to set the battery temperature limiting would be worth suggesting? The Pandora has a nice GUI slider for CPU clock and voltage - which have a similar potential to break things if you overdo it!

Awesome! I can't wait to get into it. The invention I mentioned includes a mobile chip, so I learnt how to send AT commands in C/C++. As I intend to use the Pyra as a phone, I'm really looking forward to contributing to phone-call and SMS functionality.

Indeed, it is.

Great! Thanks for clarifying, that's all I needed to know. I'm sure I read that somewhere, but my memory is not the best. As @Binky mentioned, I half remembered some talk of it being not user configurable, and some other charging parameter that is, so I wasn't sure.

Of course, resistors are user-configurable too, if you have a steady hand and a good soldering iron...

Indeed!
My soldering skills are ok on big stuff if I have a night off the grog and access to my magnifying glass
Learning to solder SMD stuff will be a challenge indeed. This is going to be so much fun. Thanks @EvilDragon so much for bringing us this gem! Could you imagine trying something like that on a propriety product

 

[Git1]

Thanks for posting about Meekatharra. It was fun doing google street maps on that region.

Welcome to west Oz!

Dude... you live near mount magnet. Gold! and Gnamma. Nice. It's like living in Paris, a tourist attraction, but you're local, so it's just home.
Greetings from Amsterdam. We have Gamma

Ha ha, yeah, not ttoo far down the track from here. Don't know what Gnamma is though? G'day in Amsterdam! hope you're keeping safe!

 

[FBnil]

Don't know what Gnamma is though

A Gnamma is a Aborigines Waterhole. In this case, from what I understood, it had water all year around.

 

[oskda]

I have ac in my home but I don't use it as the cost of electricity is huge here. That's beside the point though. As I said I intend to use the Pyra as a phone. If it goes flat before work in the morning, the action would be to place it on charge and leave it at home for the day, with no ac running un-attended obviously, or take it to work and try to plug it in somewhere like a shed or gen-set, neither of which will be airconditioned.

I think you could use an external charger to charge battery outside Pyra, even you could charge two Pyra batteries at night.

There are generic external chargers for batteries you could use (I have never used them as my smartphone has an official external charger for spare batteries, but I saw that generic chargers on Ebay, Aliexpress, etc).

I think it would be an interesting accessory for Pyra shop (a generic one or a custom made for Pyra battery).

PD: I like dry climate but not so much hot

 

[Git1]

A Gnamma is a Aborigines Waterhole.

Ahh, I love that you know that, but, I think there are at least 500 Australian Aboriginal languages? Gnamma is not a word in the local lingo.

I'm sure it'll mean 'permanent waterhole' somewhere in the country though.

Western Australia looks like a great place to buy a house in the middle of nowhere and do nothing for a lifetime.

Depends what you're into I suppose, and what you call living. I don't embrace modern western urban lifestyles. To me success in that environment seems based on how well you can do pretentiousness. Out here we get a kick out of helping each other out. That's what we do for fun. Today I helped a station owner catch a stray calf. He was grateful, and it was rewarding. To me, that's what I call a great day.

Each to their own though I s'pose.

I think you could use an external charger to charge battery outside Pyra, even you could charge two Pyra batteries at night.

Thanks! That's a fantastic idea! I remember someone asking about one sometime ago, and I think the response was that as most effort was being devoted to pyra dev/improvement, and as such an accessory would be low volume, it's dev would be unlikely.

If, however, a generic option was available (ED ?) that would be great. Failing that, I'm sure we could easily make an open source µc based charger. We could then post the plans here, and people could make their own as needed

PD: I like dry climate but not so much hot

Fair enough!
Me, I can't do humidity. I don't care how hot it gets, as long as it's not humid! Thanks for the reply

 

[spud42]

you could use one of the protype case bases to build a charger into. It alteady is the right shape to hold the battery. ebay charger circuit and a few metal battery contacts, shouldnt be difficult.

 

[spud42]

here you go Robert Taylor

https://www.realestate.com.au/buy/in-meekathara/list-1

 

[oskda]

That's a fantastic idea! I remember someone asking about one sometime ago, and I think the response was that as most effort was being devoted to pyra dev/improvement, and as such an accessory would be low volume, it's dev would be unlikely.

If, however, a generic option was available (ED ?) that would be great. Failing that, I'm sure we could easily make an open source µc based charger. We could then post the plans here, and people could make their own as needed

We must wait until Pyra development and sales go "normal", then ED won't be so stressed and he can assess accessories for Pyra which would be other incomes for shop. Of course there must be enough interested users, but that, if occurs, will be when a lot of Pyra have been delivered.

At some point most people wanting a Pyra will have his machine, so more income will come from new CPU boards, and accessories, and less from Pyra sales.

By the time you can look for generic external charger.

If it is not a generic charger (cheapest option), it would be interesting to be able to set a maximum charge capacity, because batteries charged to 100% downgrade, it is bad for battery. For example good electric cars only charge to 80% (when they say "100%" and stop charging they charge only to real like 80%; the same for discharge, it is best to stop discharging at 20%, as with this battery last a lot of time; of course, hot is also bad).

The best way to conserve battery health (heat apart) is to charge only until 80% is reached and discharge only until 20%. Slow charging and charging while not using (inside Pyra or on external charger) is also better as less heat is generated and/or transferred.

 

[Git1]

Wow, so much to write about. You guys are awesome!
And you've given me a great idea that'll benefit everyone including ED.

I'm a bit pressed for time, but I'll try and post a full reply tonight

 

[Git1]

Sorry guys, running out of time, I'll try and get the rest tomoz.

Re: charger plan:

1. I, or someone else, makes a µc based schematic and code. Really, all I'd have to do is poll volts and temp, and add some conditions. Easy as..
2. I give that to ED as closed source.
3. We (you mob) make a (very basic) hardware design that fits any-and-all dud case bases (great idea @spud42 )
4. Base bottom cover is a very simple plate with captured nut-holes, or self tappers, that can be CNC'd.
5. ED sells it on the DB store.
6. Once up for sale on the store, the plans are released open source, thus keeping in-form.
7. Most people order from ED because we're lazy, and/or, like to support him any way we can, and those that are keen get to order there own case-base (or make one), and build their own.

Could you imagine sitting beside an Ap**e user who is asking if any-one has a charger, and you whip out a second battery and pop it in? That would be gold!

I don't want to sound like an arse-licker, sorry, but seriously, ED, what you have brought us is GOLD. As a non-smart-phone-user, and one who is reluctant to cow-tow to corporations, you have delivered the solution. Thanks.

 

[levi]

If it is not a generic charger (cheapest option), it would be interesting to be able to set a maximum charge capacity, because batteries charged to 100% downgrade, it is bad for battery. For example good electric cars only charge to 80% (when they say "100%" and stop charging they charge only to real like 80%; the same for discharge, it is best to stop discharging at 20%, as with this battery last a lot of time; of course, hot is also bad).

Most electric cars allow you to set a limit (such as 80%) when you're fast charging. I get the impression this doesn't apply when you're home and charging on the half-dozen* kilowats that comes down your one-phase ring main, but I'm not sure how much manual intervention is required in this situation.

But I get the impression that you only need to be careful about overcharging a battery when you're using some super charging solution. When you're using plain old USB2 I'm not sure it matters so much if you go closer to full. Computer charge circuits also learn where 100% is based on use, and it's not the same as 100% of the battery's actual chemistry. You can get the Pandora's battery to go a few ticks above 100% when charging it ISTR.

* I hear talk of 7kW bandied about, but I make one 13amp 230/40 ring main to carry about 3kW so I'm not quite sure how these home boxes are connected. Maybe it's on a 30A cooker fuse? That seems about right.

 

[Djoga'Ro]

@levi Charging current is one aspect of battery degradation - if it causes a lot of heat, the battery ages faster.
A LiIon battery for instance is considered full, when its voltage is at 4.2V, btw. And they wear more per time the fuller they are. For this aspect charging speed or charging at all is irrelevant. That's why some charge their devices only to 80%.

 

[ible]

Most electric cars allow you to set a limit (such as 80%) when you're fast charging. I get the impression this doesn't apply when you're home and charging on the half-dozen* kilowats that comes down your one-phase ring main, but I'm not sure how much manual intervention is required in this situation.

at least for Teslas, you set the limit ahead of time, and that's across the board (home/superchargers/anywhere). on trips you can set it at 100% if you like, but they'll remind you to set it lower for day-to-day use if you keep it there for a few days.

although, depending on if the supercharger is busy, they may set your limit back to 80% (you can manually increase it back to 100%, but i think this is active only for that charging period -- it'll go back to what you had before maybe??), which is a good default to keep the flow rate up.

 

[oskda]

Most electric cars allow you to set a limit (such as 80%) when you're fast charging. I get the impression this doesn't apply when you're home and charging on the half-dozen* kilowats that comes down your one-phase ring main, but I'm not sure how much manual intervention is required in this situation.

But I get the impression that you only need to be careful about overcharging a battery when you're using some super charging solution. When you're using plain old USB2 I'm not sure it matters so much if you go closer to full. Computer charge circuits also learn where 100% is based on use, and it's not the same as 100% of the battery's actual chemistry. You can get the Pandora's battery to go a few ticks above 100% when charging it ISTR.

* I hear talk of 7kW bandied about, but I make one 13amp 230/40 ring main to carry about 3kW so I'm not quite sure how these home boxes are connected. Maybe it's on a 30A cooker fuse? That seems about right.

Fast charging is only fast until certain %, after that it goes down progressively.

About charging until near real 100% battery or discharge near 0% real capacity, it is an "extreme" action, bad for battery longevity, but allowed because it is best to do some more age to battery than get stranded somewhere in a road.

For example Chevrolet Volt (in EU Opel Ampera) is an EREV (or REEV), it is an electric car with a small battery, like 16 kWh total capacity, which only uses about 10 kWh (and with that small battery there are Volt with more than 400.000 km and battery is perfect, so they know how to protect/handle charge/etc). It never charges more than 80% nor discharge more than about 20%. When you see 0%, it is like real 20%, and when you see 100% it is like real 80%. The difference is that Volt, as EREV, has a gasoline generator, so it doesn't let you stranded, and it doesn't need to age battery discharging near real 0% or charging near real 100%. In a pure, only battery, EV (BEV) you don't have that chance and they let you stress/age battery in those exceptional cases, but it isn't good for battery.

Volt/Ampera battery always charge at low speed: maximum 16A (like 3600W) in a charge point. In home with a standard EU shucko (a domestic socket standard for most EU) it only charges at 10A (2300W, as voltage is usually 230v in public lines). In US it may be slower because voltage line is lower.

Tesla rely on a very big battery (a Volt has much more battery cycles on its life, if it is used mainly as EV), but charging and discharging near real 0 and real capacity is bad for battery. if you do it all times, as we do with smartphones, battery would age much much faster.

On other side Tesla and Volt has excellent battery cooling, while smartphones and Pyra don't have, so our batteries not only suffer from near 0% discharge and near 100% charge but from heat while using for battery itself (it gets heat when charging and discharging) and for heat produced by other components in device.

If you look at a Li battery advice, you will see it is better not to charge 100%, but well below, and not discharging to 0%, but well above, and get a proper cooling so it is at adequate temperature. Obviously Tesla and GM know about that condition.

 

[Phlyra]

Fast charging is only fast until certain %, after that it goes down progressively.

About charging until near real 100% battery or discharge near 0% real capacity, it is an "extreme" action, bad for battery longevity, but allowed because it is best to do some more age to battery than get stranded somewhere in a road.

For example Chevrolet Volt (in EU Opel Ampera) is an EREV (or REEV), it is an electric car with a small battery, like 16 kWh total capacity, which only uses about 10 kWh (and with that small battery there are Volt with more than 400.000 km and battery is perfect, so they know how to protect/handle charge/etc). It never charges more than 80% nor discharge more than about 20%. When you see 0%, it is like real 20%, and when you see 100% it is like real 80%. The difference is that Volt, as EREV, has a gasoline generator, so it doesn't let you stranded, and it doesn't need to age battery discharging near real 0% or charging near real 100%. In a pure, only battery, EV (BEV) you don't have that chance and they let you stress/age battery in those exceptional cases, but it isn't good for battery.

Volt/Ampera battery always charge at low speed: maximum 16A (like 3600W) in a charge point. In home with a standard EU shucko (a domestic socket standard for most EU) it only charges at 10A (2300W, as voltage is usually 230v in public lines). In US it may be slower because voltage line is lower.

Tesla rely on a very big battery (a Volt has much more battery cycles on its life, if it is used mainly as EV), but charging and discharging near real 0 and real capacity is bad for battery. if you do it all times, as we do with smartphones, battery would age much much faster.

On other side Tesla and Volt has excellent battery cooling, while smartphones and Pyra don't have, so our batteries not only suffer from near 0% discharge and near 100% charge but from heat while using for battery itself (it gets heat when charging and discharging) and for heat produced by other components in device.

If you look at a Li battery advice, you will see it is better not to charge 100%, but well below, and not discharging to 0%, but well bellow, and get a proper cooling so it is at adequate temperature. Obviously Tesla and GM know about that condition.

Do you know anyone who has better experience with a Toshiba SCIB-based EV?

 

[Tequesian]

Haven't really anything to add to the conversation.

Just wanted to chime in my thank you-s to Evil Dragon and his crew for their diligence in Pyra production. Very much looking forward to this.

Thank you all.