Final keyboard layout proposals - Discussion thread

[Grench]

Roman is fine. +-  is fine too. Also, the action buttons show only have action symbols/labels. Too much clutter otherwise.

Natsu, if you're speaking about my layout(s) please understand that Fn + action buttons to produce System Request, Print Screen, and such are only in suggestive status. I agree with you that the A, B, X, Y, and two smaller buttons don't necessarily have to have Fn values if they don't need to. The Dpad though I would like to use with Fn for brightness levels for keyboard and display. It's too good and simple a combo to waste(press Fn and push UP on the directional to increase screen brightness).

Reminder to everyone, this thread is for layouts only. If you have a working layout then post an image or a link to it.

Mods, feel free to move this post and Natsu's to the discussion thread. 

A concern with mapping system controls to game controls...  What if the Fn needs to be locked (for access to F1-F12) during game play?  Wouldn't that eliminate the game pad function in that scenario?

Does that ever actually happen with any regularity though where you need F1-F12 locked in-game all the time? With all the other buttons under default and shift, when has it ever come to it for most persuasions, and what about while playing you want to press a keyboard key in default and shift modes while suspended in Fn? In your layout how does someone decrease or increase brightness there? Is it much easier than Dpad Up or Down + Fn? 

Yes - it happens.  Neverwinter Nights is a prime example.  And yes, it has a native X86 Linux version that I hope to try to play on the Pyra using the Exagear driver.  I don't care if it's a slide show.

In my layout with the chording and locking capabilities, if the keyboard is Fn-locked you can press either Fn key to 'UnFn' just like you can press a shift key to un-shift a caps locked standard keyboard.  So, if you had the keyboard in Fn locked shift unlocked mode and needed to type the capital letter D, chord the right Fn and Shift keys with the right thumb and press D with the left.

In my layout, regardless of the keyboard 'locked' mode, nearly every key or Fn, Alt, Shift Ctrl + nearly any key is a chord-press away.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6c9d72c0045002506e532daaa5f2f7b4

Using my layout...

Keyboard brightness up is controlled using the Fn+Esc key.  Keyboard brightness down is Fn+shift+Esc key.

LCD brightness up is controlled using the LCD key.  LCD brightness down is shift+LCD key.  (one left of power button).

You'll notice that the 5 buttons at the top and the 3 down the center are all 'system functions' and calls.  I have provisions for individually turning on/off the major power consuming ports and all 3 radios as well as back lighting, power, sleep, pause, break, SysRQ (rare to use but on a std keyboard), print screen and the Pandora gaming legacy Start and Select.

When evaluating usage of my layout - remember that it was designed from the ground up for use with two thumbs at the same time.

Please don't think I'm berating you here. All I could find on Neverwinter Nights control scheme is this pdf:

Neverwinter Nights Introductory Instructions

I don't see where it's required you need to have sequential F1-F12 keys during active button mash gameplay. I'm not saying you don't have it mapped this way in NN, only that I don't see it in the documentation that the user will have exhausted the entire supply of default and shifted key assignments, and all buttons/triggers, before they've fully mapped the game's controls. Even Elite isn't this needy.

I'd rather keep Fn + Dpad for brightness controls but I think if I absolutely have to, I'd replace Bluetooth and USB keys in my fantasy layouts with an LCD up and LCD down, and key backlighting to Fn + LCD up for brighter keypad and Fn + LCD down for darker or off keypad backlighting. As I said previously, Dpad and Fn to me seem such a good pairing for a frequent activity to sacrifice for a paltry few games.  :mellow:

How NWN 1 uses the F1-F12 keys:

On the bottom of the screen there will be 12 boxes.  Each one can be filled with an action, item to switch to, item function, spell or macro sequence.  Press the shift key or Ctrl key and 12 new boxes appear.  This yields 36 user assignable boxes.  They cannot be reassigned to letters.

At an advanced level of game play 12 or more of these 36 can end up being used in just the pre-battle buffing.  

During game play spell casters will have each button be a different spell.  Warriors will have each button as a different weapon (or combination) or attack style.

NWN2 and WoW work similarly only they use the number keys instead of the F keys.  Unless someone manages to make Wine work really well, they're not an issue as they do not have a Linux version.

I highly recommend the game.  The single player mode is good.  The multiplayer capability is fantastic.  The game shipped with a world builder - including a robust scripting engine.  People did what comes natural to that and set up thousands of multiplayer servers.  Hundreds of them are still in existence.  The community created expansion packs (Community Expansion Pack or CEP) of additional tiles, items, clothing, weapons, monsters, etc...  The volume of content is such that a single install of the game + CEP + content can get into the 15+GB range.  Many individual servers have their own additional expansion packs too.

The most efficient way to acquire the game these days seems to be to buy the Deluxe DVD Windows version on Ebay.  With some research you will find the downloadable Linux binary (official from Bioware).  Linux on X86 native versions exist for both the player side of the game AND the server/host platform.  I estimate that 50% or more of the NWN servers are on Linux.

The game is 14 years old and 'out of support'.  So there are some peculiarities.  It was originally designed so that finding a multiplayer server was done through Gamespy.  Gamespy stopped getting paid by Bioware/Atari and ceased support.  So, the community built their own support structure for finding multiplayer servers.

Hope that helps.

 

[Grench]

Btw - do we have any visual indicator for any keyboard locks on the keyboard itself? (caps lock, Fn lock)..., i.e. LEDs for those locks?

On the Pandora I found myself with a "messed up" keyboard sometimes, until I finally realized that Fn Lock was active. ;-)

There are two ways to indicate such lock, IMO. Dedicated LEDs, either separate or located under the corresponding Lock keys (the latter making it impossible to remap those keys together with their LEDs - to distinguish between notmal keyboard backlight and Lock LED, the Lock LED could be brighter or flicker / blink in some way). Or - if keyboard illumination is done by RGB LEDs, change color of backlight of the keyboard.

I don't know the current status of LEDs on the Pyra, so excuse my ignorance here.

I had a suggestion for this early in the thread for my keyboard design.

The basics are to use 1 of the multi-color LEDs to show keyboard status.  Which color should be used for what modifier is something that can be argued out - just use this set as a basic idea example.

Off = normal.

Orange = Fn on.  I.e. it would turn on if Fn is pressed, stay on if it's locked.

Green = Ctrl on.

Blue = Shift on.

Red = Alt on.

If one is already lit and another engaged, they alternate.  All 4 would result in all 4 colors alternating through the LED.

Alternatively a 5th color - purple? would show that more than 1 lock is engaged, which would eliminate the Christmas tree effect.

User should be able to pick what color they want to use - or if they even want it to show up - in a configuration/settings module.

 

[Saber]

Neverwinter Nights

-edit-

Hope that helps.

It does. Thank you.

Now I want to play this game. 

 

[Grench]

Neverwinter Nights

-edit-

Hope that helps.

It does. Thank you.

Now I want to play this game. 

There are thousands of hours of content out there for it.  Many of the multiplayer worlds still survive - some with hundreds or thousands of areas depending on how you count them.  Look around a bit and you should be still be able to find the Diamond (US) or Deluxe (Europe) versions new-unsealed for $15 or so.  Those are the 'complete' published set.  Once those are installed, then check out the Neverwinter Nights Community Expansion Pack (CEP).  http://www.neverwinternights.info/cep.htm

 

[hmc]

Btw - do we have any visual indicator for any keyboard locks on the keyboard itself? (caps lock, Fn lock)..., i.e. LEDs for those locks?

On the Pandora I found myself with a "messed up" keyboard sometimes, until I finally realized that Fn Lock was active. ;-)

There are two ways to indicate such lock, IMO. Dedicated LEDs, either separate or located under the corresponding Lock keys (the latter making it impossible to remap those keys together with their LEDs - to distinguish between notmal keyboard backlight and Lock LED, the Lock LED could be brighter or flicker / blink in some way). Or - if keyboard illumination is done by RGB LEDs, change color of backlight of the keyboard.

I don't know the current status of LEDs on the Pyra, so excuse my ignorance here.

I had a suggestion for this early in the thread for my keyboard design.

The basics are to use 1 of the multi-color LEDs to show keyboard status.  Which color should be used for what modifier is something that can be argued out - just use this set as a basic idea example.

Off = normal.

Orange = Fn on.  I.e. it would turn on if Fn is pressed, stay on if it's locked.

Green = Ctrl on.

Blue = Shift on.

Red = Alt on.

If one is already lit and another engaged, they alternate.  All 4 would result in all 4 colors alternating through the LED.

Alternatively a 5th color - purple? would show that more than 1 lock is engaged, which would eliminate the Christmas tree effect.

User should be able to pick what color they want to use - or if they even want it to show up - in a configuration/settings module.

Hm, I'd guess just the lockable keys need a visual indicator (only Fn and Shift/Capslock). Alt and Ctrl are only active while you press them (unless if you use some software that allows locking of these keys, but I assume not so many people do this).

So two colors would be enough.

Also, it's probably a very rare case that the user has Fn and Capslock active at the same time. So blinking might be acceptable to make it entirely clear that both locks are active. For a "normal" usecase I could never accept a blinking LED next to the screen. Much too distracting.

Or, use yellow for Shift and blue for Fn - mix the two colors so show green for both locks active. Kind of intuitive, too, I guess.

 

[Grench]

Btw - do we have any visual indicator for any keyboard locks on the keyboard itself? (caps lock, Fn lock)..., i.e. LEDs for those locks?

On the Pandora I found myself with a "messed up" keyboard sometimes, until I finally realized that Fn Lock was active. ;-)

There are two ways to indicate such lock, IMO. Dedicated LEDs, either separate or located under the corresponding Lock keys (the latter making it impossible to remap those keys together with their LEDs - to distinguish between notmal keyboard backlight and Lock LED, the Lock LED could be brighter or flicker / blink in some way). Or - if keyboard illumination is done by RGB LEDs, change color of backlight of the keyboard.

I don't know the current status of LEDs on the Pyra, so excuse my ignorance here.

I had a suggestion for this early in the thread for my keyboard design.

The basics are to use 1 of the multi-color LEDs to show keyboard status.  Which color should be used for what modifier is something that can be argued out - just use this set as a basic idea example.

Off = normal.

Orange = Fn on.  I.e. it would turn on if Fn is pressed, stay on if it's locked.

Green = Ctrl on.

Blue = Shift on.

Red = Alt on.

If one is already lit and another engaged, they alternate.  All 4 would result in all 4 colors alternating through the LED.

Alternatively a 5th color - purple? would show that more than 1 lock is engaged, which would eliminate the Christmas tree effect.

User should be able to pick what color they want to use - or if they even want it to show up - in a configuration/settings module.

Hm, I'd guess just the lockable keys need a visual indicator (only Fn and Shift/Capslock). Alt and Ctrl are only active while you press them (unless if you use some software that allows locking of these keys, but I assume not so many people do this).

So two colors would be enough.

Also, it's probably a very rare case that the user has Fn and Capslock active at the same time. So blinking might be acceptable to make it entirely clear that both locks are active. For a "normal" usecase I could never accept a blinking LED next to the screen. Much too distracting.

Or, use yellow for Shift and blue for Fn - mix the two colors so show green for both locks active. Kind of intuitive, too, I guess.

On my keyboard it would be possible, though rarely needed, to lock Fn, shift, alt, ctrl all at the same time.  Using off as 'standard' and a single color for each of the different lock modes should work.  Using the alternating colors - or even a single additional color to state that more than 1 lock state is set would be useful.  Maybe use white light when they're all locked?

Or potentially use a color wheel approach to avoid any need for pulsing/flashing/alternating.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_wheel#mediaviewer/File:RBG_color_wheel.svg

Each modifier by itself would be mapped to Red, Chartreuse Green, Cyan and Violet.  Combinations would fall to the RGB combinations - though the combinations opposite on the wheel might be tricky as we'd need to steal two of the 'extra' in-between values for the cross-wheel combinations.  That would only give 12 of the 16 theoretical combinations, though we could simply make any combination with 3 or more 'locked' simply display white light.

 

[comradekingu]

I think you should run the supers as space and the bar as super. Getting from space to , is quite far now. Also as TrashyMG mentioned, there is no F11 or F12

You're apparently thinking in one finger hunt&peck.  Right thumb , left thumb space.  No huge distance traveled.

And then right thumb being at almost the left side of the keyboard doesnt have to travel a huge distance to get back to the right side...?

He had it like this

    z      x      c      v      b      n      m    *     *      *       *

               super           space            super

when this is more effective

    z      x      c      v      b      n      m    *     *      *       *

               space           super            space

Given each half has its own designated thumb serving it most effectivly, (left half, left thumb, right half, right thumb. Same as hands on regular keyboard)

It is farther to go from the bottom middle of the keyboard than it is to go from the bottom middle of each half to the radius of the half.

Every time you press space, and want to continue typing (using that same thumb) on the same half.

Unless you magically can skip over with your other thumb, and you cant, you are traveling more with one thumb.

Or you move the problem to having the right thumb tied to the leftmost position it can be in for cases where the string of letters continue on that half afterwards.

So why single instead of separated spaces?

ZXCVBNM ,  space .  enter               (doing it on one line means you can add a number row up top, but there isnt a compromise to be made on efficiency)

You add a swap of fingers when you go from ending a word with left and continuing the next sentence on the left hand (which is the only time it would occur to use the left space if you had two seperated ones)

but then again when this happens, the right hand isn't doing anything, so its free. Free to input space, and its then locked central right half for when/if typing continues there. As opposed to in the middle of the whole keyboard.

Even if you are advanced, and your right thumb begins travelling from space towards what its going to do after you can finish typing with your left, it still is more distance to get there in most cases if it has to start out from the middle of the keyboard rather than the middle of its half.

Thus, middle of each half is the most effective placement for a space.

There might be an advantage when adding a separated left space, but i'd say that only benefits one finger-pecking, something that isn't effective anyhow.

Learning a singular space placement is intuitive and noob-friendly, because you dont have to (de)learn that punctuation isn't duplicated on the left. It is not possible to duplicate it there, because you run out of keys. Especially since having already wasted a button on another space.

So all in all, one handed people who also hold the device with that one hand while they are using it (meaning only one thumb) will lose efficiency. If you have another arm you could mount it on that as a clock possibly.

Edit: i had a go at explaining this visually here.

Edit2: TLR Middle of right half reaches more buttons with less stretching required than having to cover the whole right half starting out in the middle of the keyboard.

 

[Løra (Lolla)]

So the space is more conveniently located to be able to type a sentence better - or faster, rather - Because it can reach more buttons with less stretching required?

 

[comradekingu]

Yes, your thumbs are not hovering above the space on a handheld device, you have to move them there.

Implementing space where your thumb(s) have access, which is next to where they hover, is the crux of what can be learnt from a 10finger board, not the 10finger-specific functional layout.

 

[ible]

So you'd think it'd be best to put spacebuttons in these locations?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/34e047722c1bc9f031373bd568edbbef

Too bad we're stuck with the two-wide spacebar

 

[comradekingu]

I see the power of circular reasoning compelled you

Which is to say there hasn't been a picked layout yet. And picking a starting-point of two-wide space gets you nowhere quick. One discovers pretty quickly that its impossible to balance a layout based on design-by committee. Thats when trying to solve things really does not support decisions that don't make sense. Its easy to interpret popular vote, it doesnt make for a good overall design.

You will always see arguments in favour of 'good enough', where good enough is known to work in some variety, perhaps with a history of being good enough.

Questioning things in light of 'good enough' is a natural progression towards something better. A system that proposes change has to make additional sense, rather than a historical system which is just accepted and defended. I am one of those people who question things, and with everyone helping to make things better, it doesn't really matter before you can explain what the improvement is.

Change for the sake of change isn't better.

Lets say it couldn't be explained why doublespace makes no sense, then we would rightfully be back to square 1 again.

Separated space may be based on functionality, but if you look closely it doesn't provide additional effectivity over singlespace.

At-least it is based on some kind of functionality, whereas doublespace aligned right isnt.

One wide aligned right, with close proximity to punctuation is still the best, and it allows a number-row.

 

[comradekingu]

These are my concerns for layouts other than my own:

No P+2L+2, or recursive remapping to make it so.

Extra button used on making space a bar-key. Ineffective placement of space. Distance to punctuation.

Clutter on the letter-keys. Looks bad, and makes moving them physically for AZERTY wrong. Or it poses problems when/if a AZERTY layout is produced.

To many prints on keys/low visibility. The keys are actually much smaller, so a lot of things dont work. Placing things atop another is one of those.

Inventing modifiers that do things regular keyboards already impelement. Changing already invented modifiers. Using super as modifier for example.

Caps lock as dedicated key.

Not being able to type minimum input without anything more special than shift.

Things i dont like about my own layout.

Having to swap some number letter orders to be able to input basic input with nothing more than shift. It is however the lesser evil since its a combination of many layouts, and there is a reduced number row.

More didactrics than 1 on two keys.

 

[ible]

As for making spacebar two-wide, I'm not doing it because I think it's best, but because that's what ED and 50% of the community want (the biggest faction at least) -- and as answered by ED in the Ask Evildragon Forum, that's what we'll have to deal with. So you may want to rework your design for that eventuality.

What is P+2L+2?

On your layout, you have 1, !, |, and F1 on the same key AFAICT. How do you accomplish that? shift+1 = !, Fn+1 = F1, so is Fn+shift+1 = |, or something else? It doesn't seem very clear from looking at it, which would bother me.

 

[comradekingu]

You press F-ing+1 to type F1. If the combo used to be Alt+F1, its now Alt+F-ing+F1

P+2 L+2 is the two keys to the right of respectivly, P and L. They are used for just about every other language than English.

ED can have his preference, he will be faced with picking one of two.

1. A keyboard with dualwide space, that is also not balanced.

2. A keyboard with singlewide space, that is balanced.

You cant magically skip that and pretend it doesnt come down to it. Also its a case of discovery, not only does doblewide have a certain set of drawbacks, it has only one positive.

Which is being able to see it as a space more easily.

If you think singlewide is better, thats 3 out of 5 people making keyboard designs. It didnt come out of thin air.

There is a disconnect between seeing a keyboard you think works in the manner of a full one, and one that actually works the way that makes a full one work.

 

[ible]

I agree with the double-wide vs. single-wide spacebar, but have to yield to the design constraints. As for other things, I'm still a bit confused.

Which symbols specifically are used in every other language besides english?

On a US keyboard, the two keys right of P are [{ ]}, and the two keys right of L are ;: '"

Looking at Saber's layouts, anybody prefer centered alphabet keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/56906aac020b0a1894a7114c8da246b3

over the uncentered?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/29bfc5ccc52a8358eb467aa3cbbd5db3

 

[Saber]

I agree with the double-wide vs. single-wide spacebar, but have to yield to the design constraints. As for other things, I'm still a bit confused.


Which symbols specifically are used in every other language besides english?


On a US keyboard, the two keys right of P are [{ ]}, and the two keys right of L are ;: '"


Looking at Saber's layouts, anybody prefer centered alphabet keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/56906aac020b0a1894a7114c8da246b3


over the uncentered?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/29bfc5ccc52a8358eb467aa3cbbd5db3

I do. 

When I reach my thumbs over the Pyra, I want them to have an equal number of letters and vowels underneath each. I don't want one side to have more than the other, not for a handheld anyway held by hands with thumbs of comparable length. A big issue I have with these "uncentered" layouts, besides the strange inclination to leave keys blank, is the "a" gets moved to the edge in every one of them. This is unacceptable for such a popular vowel. Yes, I know several countries have their own set of unique characters which sometimes are found around P+2 and L+2, but not the one I set my feet on. I am sorry, but the letters A-Z should take priority over the various other alphabet subsets. If there were more keys per row, then I wouldn't see it this way, but there aren't any more than are apparently needed. :mellow:

After looking over my layouts one last time, I found I have a little more work to do on them, but I have made every realistic effort to fit the needs of as many as I could. I do have "uncentered" layouts in my post, and as I've said before, if the community wants something like them, then I'll have to be one of the ones to learn to accept them, but every decision we make in life we have to live with the consequences in it's aftermath. It's the way it is no matter what direction our whims lean us to, but we must remember we already have Pandora's out in the wild and people seem to thumb type well enough on them and that has a proven centered, not an uncentered, layout. Remember too that the Pyra has more keys than the Pandora, so many of it's shortcomings can hopefully be reduced if we think hard on how do so. //End rant.    

 

[comradekingu]

Not symbols, letters. English alphabet is a reduced alphabet.

Its depends, but its always those keys, which means users of other than english layout has learnt to use those keys for their local stuff.

Edit: you can call it uncentered all you like, fact of the matter is it centers both the english and everyone else on the same key. Shifting that means you put a full layout outside of the keyboard.

By dividing the keyboard arbitrarily into "letters and vovels" you are forgetting about real keyboard use. English, has a left side dominance when it comes to most used keys. By putting punctuation on the right side that is balanced.

Putting , and . on the left side, when space is on the other is by far the worst compromise that can be made. If there really is any sense to extending the spacebar over to the right side of the right hand of the keyboard, you are not only shifting focus from on to the other all the time, you are also locking both thumbs at non-central positions.

I dont think there "arent more keys than apparently needed" to me it seems very apparent that backspace enter tab and space have other symbols on them.

If you want to press +, there shouldnt be any accidental presses of enter to consider.

 

[ible]

I think I also have a preference for the uncentered.  I expect the left thumb to be busy with letters, but the right thumb to be busy with punctuation, as you mention.

I understand it may feel strange for - and + to be on backspace and enter, but I think it puts them about where they live on a US keyboard.  It might be bad if you're typing in e.g. a python interpreter and you want + but you press enter, but in other contexts accidentally pressing enter is simply one key to undo with backspace, just as it would be if I put + on any other letter and you misfired.

My design goals are to leave as many letters open for meta'ing as possible, while giving all the punctuation and what not.  I would prefer +/- to be their own key, but that's hard without two extra keys.  It is possible, though, if you don't care to leave meta'ing open for most keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1785d2d62747ffa293eb0e875d897831

As it's inspired by Grench, I think this layout would be very fast for coding, gaming, and typing in English, but not super friendly for other languages.

(Or, if the PCB had been a matrix keyboard and had no offsets each row:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6221f0d0977eb225853e357ceb6d1dbe

But this is not what we have to work with on the Pyra.  Also, I think it would be worse for tactile cues.)

 

[_wb_]

I agree with the double-wide vs. single-wide spacebar, but have to yield to the design constraints. As for other things, I'm still a bit confused.


Which symbols specifically are used in every other language besides english?


On a US keyboard, the two keys right of P are [{ ]}, and the two keys right of L are ;: '"


Looking at Saber's layouts, anybody prefer centered alphabet keys:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/56906aac020b0a1894a7114c8da246b3


over the uncentered?

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/29bfc5ccc52a8358eb467aa3cbbd5db3

I prefer uncentered, to keep options open for international layouts that often use the keys at P+1 and L+2.

If the design constraint is final that space has to be double-width (and probably in same spot as on the Pandora), then the remapping options are kind of limited anyway (at least for dvorak etc). If we're going to screw remappers anyway, then maybe we can just as well screw all of them.

Also perhaps international users prefer to have easy diacritics and unlabeled Meta-vowels over remapping P+1 and L+2. At least for me that is true, since I need more than three special symbols anyway.

So one could argue that a 'centered' layout should be considered after all.

A 'centered' layout has the advantage that the number row is properly aligned. Also, Tab is in a slightly more standard position.

I would do it like this:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/658e08c2cfb797a4f1af2aaa6ae7865e

- Shift on the left

- Comma and period near space, for better combos

- In some window managers (e.g. default Ubuntu), Alt-Tab (R2+Tab) cycles between programs while Alt-grave (the key just above Tab on US-QWERTY keyboards) cycles between the different windows of the current program. So I like to put ` on the same key as Tab, for mnemonic reasons.

I'll add it to my "final" proposals. But I still prefer an 'uncentered' layout, with a single-key space.

 

[Askarus]

I prefer Saber's centered layout.