Final keyboard layout proposals - Discussion thread

[mrpalmtop]

Here's one more thought. It's a bit more radical since it proposes dropping the very top row of partial (and imo wasted space) keys:

I haven't seen the earlier discussions but I suppose this might not work with the arrangement of the key sensors on the PCB. Still, I think it's nice to see what could have been if it doesn't fit.

 

[Saber]

I think you should run the supers as space and the bar as super. Getting from space to , is quite far now. Also as TrashyMG mentioned, there is no F11 or F12

Here it is with F11 and F12:

I'm not quite understanding your suggestion, comradekingu. Could you please re-explain for me?

Mindreader! 

Seriously, I have the same ideas for my version 3 layout. I'll be posting it momentarily. They're not identical twins as layouts go though, more like Schwarzenegger and Devito. A new take on a beleaguered design. 

 

[hmc]

Here's one more thought. It's a bit more radical since it proposes dropping the very top row of partial (and imo wasted space) keys:

I haven't seen the earlier discussions but I suppose this might not work with the arrangement of the key sensors on the PCB. 

The best layout I saw so far!

Too bad that it doesn't fit the keyboard contacts on the PCB.

 

[mrpalmtop]

Interesting! I find it a little less crazy than Grench's layout, due to standard keys being about where you expect them. (For instance, I like the number keys/shifted number key symbols being in the top row.)


One challenge. IIRC, ED says he doesn't want more than one modifier (i.e. Fn and Purple-Star in your layout). I guess you say Purple-Star is the Super (Window) button, though.

Assuming your recollection is correct about what ED said about modifier keys, I hope he would change his mind as doing so would allow for much greater ease in typing for both thumb and desktop typists. My layout here is able to keep modifier keys on both sides within easy reach for each hand/thumb which should increase input speeds and convenience. This design principle also allows us to have more dedicated punctuation keys which is important to any kind of typist.

So how would you do something like Super+1 in your layout? (Fn+Super+Q?) I use the Awesome Window Manager, which uses such combinations to navigate to different desktops, among other things. Of course, the "Window" key can be modified in AWM, so it's not that big of a deal I suppose.

AWM is one of the very few window managers that uses Super in conjunction with an alphanumeric. I would suggest mapping Alt+Q (visually Alt+1)  as the pneumonic in this case. I would do that in WindowMaker (my favorite after KDE) with my Pyra since WM uses Alt+1, Alt+N to switch desktops normally.

Here's one more thought. It's a bit more radical since it proposes dropping the very top row of partial (and imo wasted space) keys:

Spoiler

Spoiler

I haven't seen the earlier discussions but I suppose this might not work with the arrangement of the key sensors on the PCB. 

Spoiler

The best layout I saw so far!

Too bad that it doesn't fit the keyboard contacts on the PCB.

Yeah, I'm kicking myself for not doing this earlier when the PCB was being drafted. I wish I had heard of this keyboard editor site at that time!

 

[mrpalmtop]

After some more feedback, here's what I hope to be my final version of the keyboard. Differences in this one:

• Super modification keys are only on the top row
• Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching
• Made it so all most common punctuation is at right edge of keyboard
• Back tick moved to C key
• Tidied up Fn colors

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a135dceda5579bc94a60d2f1a04b3210

 

[rygD]

Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching

I am confused.  Wouldn't it be easier to reach with both hands if it was centered?  I don't think you will find much support for it in that location.

 

[ible]

I like it. Some ideas, take 'em or leave 'em:

Make all symbols use the same modifier (e.g., Purple-Star + Tab = ~) except for numbers and F1-type keys (so continue to use Fn for those). I'd argue this might make it a little more consistent, muscle-memory-wise.

Prepare a version with spacebar the second-right button on the bottom row, in case we are stuck with the Pandora layout.

 

[mrpalmtop]

Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching

I am confused.  Wouldn't it be easier to reach with both hands if it was centered?  I don't think you will find much support for it in that location.

For this layout, I was thinking to my own usage of handheld keyboards that have a space in the middle. What I realized was that even in two-handed typing mode, I prefer to press the spacebar with my right index finger as it is less movement.

I won't speak for others, but my two-hand approach for typing on palmtops, I use only my first three fingers. My pinkie and thumb are not used. The other benefit to moving space bar to the right one is that it makes it just a tad easier for thumb typing. It is also why I moved the dedicated slash key over to the right as well.

The truth is that I am both a desktop and thumb typist on handheld computers and I suspect everyone else who can two-hand type is the same. Thus, I believe that compromise between the two positions should be possible to attain. The important thing for both, though, is to have as many dedicated punctuation keys as possible. This makes everything sooo much better!

 

[mrpalmtop]

I like it. Some ideas, take 'em or leave 'em:


Make all symbols use the same modifier (e.g., Purple-Star + Tab = ~) except for numbers and F1-type keys (so continue to use Fn for those). I'd argue this might make it a little more consistent, muscle-memory-wise.

I moved to making the symbols use Fn as much as possible since it's better to have them hardware generated to maximize the number of possible Super shortcuts.

Prepare a version with spacebar the second-right button on the bottom row, in case we are stuck with the Pandora layout.

I really hope we're not stuck with that key arrangement. Does someone have a link to the Pandora keys for keyboard-layout-editor.com?

 

[ible]

Also, another IIRC, ED doesn't want the Fn key to be the Fn key (i.e., hardware generating as you mentioned), but rather some other modifier. That way, games and things can have access to what buttons you press, including the Fn key. By itself, Fn isn't a key, but with it as a non-hardware modifier, we can use it for other purposes.

Also, you should be able to just modify the widths of your keys in the program to get the Pandora style spacebar, but here's my example:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d302f8510677d85bcf7d4e41f2e03125

 

[Saber]

Also, another IIRC, ED doesn't want the Fn key to be the Fn key (i.e., hardware generating as you mentioned), but rather some other modifier. That way, games and things can have access to what buttons you press, including the Fn key. By itself, Fn isn't a key, but with it as a non-hardware modifier, we can use it for other purposes.

To clarify, ED doesn't want the main modifier to be a hardware Fn key like before. The label on the keycap could be called Fn for universal recognizability but the underlying key is Meta. 

 

[_wb_]

@mrpalmtop :

Thanks for the interesting proposal. Here are my most important objections:

- Two special modifiers (Fn and purple star) is too much; we should have enough keys to need only one.

- I think that spending ~10 premium key locations on modifiers is a big waste, when we already have four perfectly fine shoulder buttons that are extremely suitable to be used as modifiers.

- No dedicated number key row is a step backwards compared to the Pandora.

- The layout seems to be optimized for tabletop touch typing, and not handheld thumb typing. While both should be possible, I think handheld thumb typing should get priority.

 

[mrpalmtop]

@mrpalmtop :

Thanks for the interesting proposal. Here are my most important objections:

- Two special modifiers (Fn and purple star) is too much; we should have enough keys to need only one.

- I think that spending ~10 premium key locations on modifiers is a big waste, when we already have four perfectly fine shoulder buttons that are extremely suitable to be used as modifiers.

- No dedicated number key row is a step backwards compared to the Pandora.

- The layout seems to be optimized for tabletop touch typing, and not handheld thumb typing. While both should be possible, I think handheld thumb typing should get priority.

Thanks for the feedback. I do have more modifiers than some of the other proposed layouts but that is primarily because having them there would speed up both thumb and finger typing. Wouldn't it be easier, for instance, if you wanted to type Control+O to use your left thumb for the Control key and the right thumb for the O key?

I agree that losing the dedicated number keys could be considered a step backward compared to the Pandora, however, I think people are more likely to type punctuation keys than to type numbers in the course of short emails or forum posts (the most common use cases imo).

Looking at my latest layout, what would you do to make it more thumb-typing friendly? I did deliberately put all the most common punctuation as close to the right side of the keyboard as I could while still preserving the modifiers. I also don't think that the new location of spacebar is that difficult to reach with a thumb either. Do you think it should be moved to the right further?

 

[_wb_]

Thanks for the feedback. I do have more modifiers than some of the other proposed layouts but that is primarily because having them there would speed up both thumb and finger typing. Wouldn't it be easier, for instance, if you wanted to type Control+O to use your left thumb for the Control key and the right thumb for the O key?

I agree that losing the dedicated number keys could be considered a step backward compared to the Pandora, however, I think people are more likely to type punctuation keys than to type numbers in the course of short emails or forum posts (the most common use cases imo).

Looking at my latest layout, what would you do to make it more thumb-typing friendly? I did deliberately put all the most common punctuation as close to the right side of the keyboard as I could while still preserving the modifiers. I also don't think that the new location of spacebar is that difficult to reach with a thumb either. Do you think it should be moved to the right further?

When I type Ctrl+O on the Pandora, I use my right index finger to hold R1 (which is Ctrl) and my right thumb to press the O key. This is just as easy as typing Shift-O with the keyboard Shift or with L1.

The number key row has various uses, e.g. in gaming (e.g. typically switching between weapons) and in shortcuts (e.g. Alt+number to switch between tabs). I do not doubt the importance of punctuation keys, in fact, I think my proposal has more dedicated punctuation keys than yours.

If you insist on a double-width space bar near the center of the bottom row, then I think it should be perfectly centered in order to maximize its reachability for both thumbs.

Here is my take on it:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2010977ffa6ba0999a31ec92db664e74

Features:

- quadruple-width space bar (if you want a real space bar, do it right!)

- no dedicated number row (unavoidable with centered space bar)

- only one special modifier

- other than 1234567890, all standard symbol-producing QWERTY keys are available, as dedicated keys and with standard shifted symbols: `~   -_   =+   [{   ]}   \|   ;:   '"   ,<   .>   and  /?

 

[ible]

My biggest objection is that it would be hard to use any Fn keys on the left with thumb typing. Fn + O = 9, great. Fn + Q = 1, hard.

Unless I'm missing something.

 

[ible]

If you insist on a double-width space bar near the center of the bottom row, then I think it should be perfectly centered in order to maximize its reachability for both thumbs.

Here is my take on it:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2010977ffa6ba0999a31ec92db664e74

Features:

- quadruple-width space bar (if you want a real space bar, do it right!)

Don't give anybody any ideas, _wb_! We might lose even more keys!

 

[fusion_power]

After some more feedback, here's what I hope to be my final version of the keyboard. Differences in this one:

• Super modification keys are only on the top row
• Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching
• Made it so all most common punctuation is at right edge of keyboard
• Back tick moved to C key
• Tidied up Fn colors

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a135dceda5579bc94a60d2f1a04b3210

I somehow don't like that the number keys are above the F keys, that confuses my classic PC keyboard layout senses. ^^"

 

[ible]

But it's pretty nice that all the F keys go on one line.

I noticed you have a significant amount of flexibility when you put symbols for meta everywhere. Here's my take on _wb_'s, but with a proper-sized spacebar in the Pandora layout:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/127d3a2123a1041bbc077947e3c94fb2

The bad thing is you lose the diacritic quick short-cuts, and it's messier looking -- every key pretty much has a meta function.

 

[Grench]

After some more feedback, here's what I hope to be my final version of the keyboard. Differences in this one:

• Super modification keys are only on the top row
• Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching
• Made it so all most common punctuation is at right edge of keyboard
• Back tick moved to C key
• Tidied up Fn colors

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a135dceda5579bc94a60d2f1a04b3210

Hmm..  Not a fan of the off-center space bar.  That was better on the previous version.  However this version treats the numeric and function keys better.  Maybe meld them?  Have you considered using your earlier version and simply putting all 12 of the F keys on the same row?

 

[hmc]

Shifted space bar one key to the right for easier reaching

I am confused.  Wouldn't it be easier to reach with both hands if it was centered?  I don't think you will find much support for it in that location.

For this layout, I was thinking to my own usage of handheld keyboards that have a space in the middle. What I realized was that even in two-handed typing mode, I prefer to press the spacebar with my right index finger as it is less movement.

I won't speak for others, but my two-hand approach for typing on palmtops, I use only my first three fingers. My pinkie and thumb are not used. The other benefit to moving space bar to the right one is that it makes it just a tad easier for thumb typing. It is also why I moved the dedicated slash key over to the right as well.

 Not so here.


I just checked using my 200LX and analyzed how I was typing on it. I use both index fingers approximately with the same frequency. Which one I use, depends mainly on what the previous  characters were. E.g. if the space is preceded by a comma (which is located directly to the right of the spacebar on the 200LX), I always use the left index finger for space, because my right index finger is on the comma key. 

In general, if a word ends on characters that are located in the right half of the keyboard, I tend to use the left index finger for space and vice versa.

As you, I am tying with 6 fingers mainly.