Final keyboard layout proposals - Discussion thread

[ible]

I've added my idea(s) to the final keyboard layout proposal thread, borrowing heavily from _wb_.
http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals/?p=370032/URL]

Awesome qualities:

• Shift+Backspace = Delete
• Excellent matching with standard (US) keyboard. Deviations in shifts for , and . (\ and ?, respectively, instead of < and >).
• No shifts necessary to write +,-,=,/ and {,}.

Missing:

• Insert (but who uses insert now-a-days?)
• Alt only exists on a shoulder, not on the front (but who needs two alts?)

If desired, we could add _wb_'s numlock feature, but I'm not sure I'd want it on a keyboard this size, and would be worried about accidentally engaging it and typing numbers when I wanted letters.

 

[TrashyMG]

Insert (but who uses insert now-a-days?)

Use it a lot for text editing.. Also some programs require actually hitting insert key and there will be a lot of vanilla programs available on the debian repository without any Pyra specific keyboard optimizations to deal with the lack of the key.

 

[comradekingu]

How do you then do shift+delete?  (permanent delete)

I use shift+insert to paste in terminal-emulator.

Novice users who dont like using buttons they dont see might want keyboard alt, but one could argue novice users dont need alt. For on-desktop use one needs alt.

 

[ible]

Insert (but who uses insert now-a-days?)

Use it a lot for text editing.. Also some programs require actually hitting insert key and there will be a lot of vanilla programs available on the debian repository without any Pyra specific keyboard optimizations to deal with the lack of the key.

Huh, interesting.  I didn't think you'd need Insert.  I didn't realize all keyboards had it.  But I mapped it "meta+Tab" for these cases.

 

[ible]

How do you then do shift+delete?  (permanent delete)

I use shift+insert to paste in terminal-emulator.

Novice users who dont like using buttons they dont see might want keyboard alt, but one could argue novice users dont need alt. For on-desktop use one needs alt.

Permanent delete, from a file manager?  Good question.  Perhaps we let ctrl+shift+backspace be permanent delete.

I use ctrl+shift+v to paste into a terminal.

I think it's a waste of space for alt on the face (especially with limited territory), but perhaps that's just me.

 

[levi]

If desired, we could add _wb_'s numlock feature, but I'm not sure I'd want it on a keyboard this size, and would be worried about accidentally engaging it and typing numbers when I wanted letters.

That's a good point, and is hadn't occurred to me before.


A question to all keyboard designers: I note you're all using L1 and R1 as the 'main' shoulder buttons. I'd assume the bottom buttons would be the primary shoulders - are those the L2/R2 buttons or are the buttons the other way up to how they are on a Playstation controller (I forget).

 

[TrashyMG]

Huh, interesting.  I didn't think you'd need Insert.  I didn't realize all keyboards had it.  But I mapped it "meta+Tab" for these cases.

Well every keyboard I've used has an Insert key, it's often used to toggle between writing over text vs inserting text in editors, other programs use it for other things..  The Pyra is a general use computing device with access to a library of standard applications that are available on the Debian repository. The keyboard should strive to be able to access what is at least on a standard 102-key keyboard even if combo buttons are needed.. It doesn't need to be a primary key, it just needs to be there.

 

[ible]

Well every keyboard I've used has an Insert key, it's often used to toggle between writing over text vs inserting text in editors, other programs use it for other things..  The Pyra is a general use computing device with access to a library of standard applications that are available on the Debian repository. The keyboard should strive to be able to access what is at least on a standard 102-key keyboard even if combo buttons are needed.. It doesn't need to be a primary key, it just needs to be there.

Fair enough.  I updated my post to reflect Meta+Tab=Insert.  I've also updated to add Meta/Alt on the Face for the novices who want to use Alt/Meta (per comradekingu's thoughts), as well as move Delete to Meta+Backspace, so that Shift+Delete makes more sense as Shift+(Meta+Backspace).  I had to move F11 and F12 around for this; their new locations aren't super ideal, but I suspect they aren't used very often.

 

[comradekingu]

F11 is window mode, very much a nice button when you are limited on vertical space.

 

[ible]

Well thankfully I haven't completely removed it

 

[_wb_]

Can you clarify on your illustration which modifier buttons apply to each colour symbol on each key? Specifically, if you're not using Super as a modifier, presumably all the red text is from the Meta key - is that the case?


Do we have confirmation that was can print three different symbols on each keycap?


I'm also not completely sold on Esc being up there above left nub for vi/vim usage, but I can't see anywhere sensible to put it on the keyboard (and it being a non-modified key should be a boon compared to the Pandora where it's FN+Q)


I'd also like hardware toggles to be available under one chorded keypress. That should still be possible with the modifiers and the one hardware button, but do you have a suggested set of chords for each toggle? Should they be printed on the case somewhere too?

All the orange-red labels are Meta functions of those keys, yes.

Three different symbols on a keycap: should be possible. The keys are at least as big as the number keys and the START, SELECT, PANDORA on the Pandora, and those have three symbols on them.

Heavy vi(m) users could map a second Esc to e.g. Meta+; if that makes their life easier. For most people, I think it's nice to have a dedicated Esc key that is sufficiently far away from the other keys to avoid accidental presses.

For more flexibility, I would avoid hardware modifier combinations to be printed on labels. I'd rather have it that when you press the Wonky key, an overlay menu appears that shows the current hardware settings, with guihints on how to change them.

I've said it before, I'll say it again. I hate that little tumblr special snowflake chip, can we please not put that on the keyboard?

Obviously we could use any other symbol. E.g. something like ⚙ or

could also work.

I usually avoid these threads, but here I am.

The Fn should be at least like on the OP, it's useless here.

Same for numlock.

Not to mention the num pad where numbers and /  * , ( are on the same key !!! Just nonsense.

I stop here because my head already hurts thinking about using this layout.

Unlike the Pandora, Fn/Meta is also on a shoulder button in my layout. That is the most efficient way to implement modifiers. The keyboard ("Left") versions of the modifiers are just there as a backup, in case your shoulder button breaks, or in case you put the Pyra on a tabletop which makes it tricky to use the shoulder buttons. Also it is nice to have both a Left and Right version of each modifier. But it would be a big waste to use "good" key positions for all modifiers.

I agree that the num pad overlap with / * , ( is unfortunate, but it is the only way I see without needing four symbols on some keys. It is not a huge problem though: you can still reach * and ( just like always (shift+number), and we could make it so that in Num Lock mode, Meta+ , / results in , /

Or we can remove the Num Lock thing entirely, the Pandora doesn't have it and I think that's fine too. http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/13598f4df351f7ac5f081cb3d3e7d876

 

[_wb_]

I've added my idea(s) to the final keyboard layout proposal thread, borrowing heavily from _wb_.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/17568-final-keyboard-layout-proposals/?p=370032/URL]


Awesome qualities:

• Shift+Backspace = Delete
• Excellent matching with standard (US) keyboard. Deviations in shifts for , and . (\ and ?, respectively, instead of < and >).
• No shifts necessary to write +,-,=,/ and {,}.

Missing:

• Insert (but who uses insert now-a-days?)
• Alt only exists on a shoulder, not on the front (but who needs two alts?)

If desired, we could add _wb_'s numlock feature, but I'm not sure I'd want it on a keyboard this size, and would be worried about accidentally engaging it and typing numbers when I wanted letters.

I like it, some fresh ideas there!

Of course Meta+Backspace = Del is a better idea than Shift+Backspace = Del, but I guess you figured that out already. I'm commenting on the version I see here:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/971902282d330b3e3d7617101ff3461e

Some thoughts:

You're giving up backwards compatibility with Pandora by moving Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and LALT, LCTRL. That doesn't have to be a big problem though.

I like + and - where you put them, but it seems to me that  < > = / are not "important" enough to deserve those premium positions. Unless you write HTML for a living or something. I guess it's a matter of preference, but I use those "macro navigation" keys (Home/End/PgUp/PgDn) really a lot, certainly enough to deserve dedicated premium position keys.

Your location for keyboard shift is very hard to reach, to the point that tabletop typing is barely possible.

The location of F11 and F12 is in my opinion slightly more awkward than in my proposal.

Adjusting the brightness while playing a game that uses shoulder button L2 and those action buttons may be impossible. Also the dpad might behave unexpectedly while holding L2.

You have swapped [ and {  (usually [ is the unshifted one).

Here is a proposal that takes some of your ideas:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9c8966715f23810e5dfa18690ce503a1

 

[comradekingu]

Are there any settings that are used frequently that arent do do with power? I like the pointed gear, but i wonder if it has additional use to the current/power symbol.

 

[ible]

I like it, some fresh ideas there!

Thanks!  More detailed responding in the spoiler.

Spoiler

You're giving up backwards compatibility with Pandora by moving Home/End/PgUp/PgDn and LALT, LCTRL. That doesn't have to be a big problem though.

I like + and - where you put them, but it seems to me that  < > = / are not "important" enough to deserve those premium positions. Unless you write HTML for a living or something. I guess it's a matter of preference, but I use those "macro navigation" keys (Home/End/PgUp/PgDn) really a lot, certainly enough to deserve dedicated premium position keys.

Ah, so that's what those symbols (like ⇟ for end) mean!  Now that I see what those are, I can understand why you'd want them as the face buttons.  It'd be nice to have + and - near those (as in your suggested revision), for zooming.  Although now-a-days, you can zoom with ctrl+scroll, which would be ctrl+(move right nub), so I don't suppose it's necessary to have + and - close there.

For me, < and > aren't very important, but = and / are.

Your location for keyboard shift is very hard to reach, to the point that tabletop typing is barely possible.

I was expecting people to have an itchy left trigger finger.

The location of F11 and F12 is in my opinion slightly more awkward than in my proposal.

Yeah, I agree, but I liked having delete on meta+backspace, on purely philosophical grounds.  Although, I am not against your Meta++ and Meta+- for insert and delete.

Adjusting the brightness while playing a game that uses shoulder button L2 and those action buttons may be impossible. Also the dpad might behave unexpectedly while holding L2.

Fair enough.  I suppose it's good to try and avoid any alternate keys for the face buttons (including the +/- buttons) for this reason.

You have swapped [ and {  (usually [ is the unshifted one).

Yep, though I'm not religiously for that.

Here is a proposal that takes some of your ideas:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9c8966715f23810e5dfa18690ce503a1

Here's one, which makes sure +/- don't get swapped by meta mid-game:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1829013a042ee6bb25a91cc750250f48

I would have preferred the face meta to be on the rightish side of the keyboard, so that meta-ing wouldn't just be a left-handed thing, but that's not too important.  I'm also trying to keep your ability to do composing with the meta key, which seems nice for those with more complicated alphabets.  The downsides, in my mind, are that meta is necessary for \, =, [, ], which exist on the left-hand side of the keyboard, where meta already is, and that there are a lot of symbols which need meta (it makes the keyboard look a little more cluttered).  But perhaps the benefits outweigh those minor cons.

 

[WizardStan]

I will make this suggestion: do not put "alternate" codes on the gamepad buttons. They should all be one thing and one thing only. If "(B)" registers as one keycode and "shift-(B)" is something else it is going to cause a lot of problems when someone tries to pull off an "[L1]-(B)" combo move in a game. It makes things a lot more complicated for developers, especially porters of games that likely only have 1:1 mapping of controls.

edit: Same goes for the arrow keys, though "Fn-Left" probably isn't too bad.

edit edit: unless Fn is on a shoulder button, as I see a lot of people are doing, in which case it has the exact same problem and shouldn't be done.

 

[ibisum]

I have on small item of feedback: the keys are f*'ing totally unusable in low-light situations.  Can we please consider having a brighter contrast on the keys so that in low light you can see what you're typing?  I've gotten pretty used to just tilting the screen down so I can get a little light on the action (although its quite shiny nevertheless), but maybe this is an opportunity to fix that issue somehow with brighter key caps/background colors behind the lettering?

 

[slaeshjag]

Apparently, the keyboard will be backlit?

 

[ible]

Yes.  On my laptop I always turn off my keyboard LED's.  Alls I need is some nubs on F and J to find my way back home .  ALthough, because of where delete/home/end are, I always have trouble finding them in low-light.

I present some small changes, which puts the face-meta to the right, so meta should be possible to hit with the right hand (allowing a left-thumb key-press sans the L-shoulder meta):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/902763d48f1afc88956b0528d4e6a394

Some of its plusses include standard shifts for keys, and removing meta-sequences from K and L, so it looks a little less cluttered in the QWERTY region.

I will replace my "official" entry with this one.

 

[LEOXD]

I will make this suggestion: do not put "alternate" codes on the gamepad buttons. [...]

Are there any that do?

 

[Caine]

I present some small changes, which puts the face-meta to the right, so meta should be possible to hit with the right hand (allowing a left-thumb key-press sans the L-shoulder meta):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/902763d48f1afc88956b0528d4e6a394

Some of its plusses include standard shifts for keys, and removing meta-sequences from K and L, so it looks a little less cluttered in the QWERTY region.

I like where this is going.
Is it a worthwhile idea to move the []{}= keys to ,.;'/ respectively?

When programming that avoids having to stretch out your right thumb all the way over to the left/middle to type very frequent characters.

I am also a bit worried about the placement of the topside Fn-key when typing on the table. Making combinations on the right is quite tricky and painful to do.

In the layout of _wb_ this problem occurs on the left.