Final keyboard layout proposals - Discussion thread

[ible]

I'm all for making it easier to code, but I think this way it is easier to allow for things like (Meta+") then O = Ö.

I'm unsure of where you're thinking that []{}= will go.  Will they go to the meta versions of ,.;'/, or replace them as the default keypress?

Here's playing around with the locations of the []{}=/|, which I think might be easier for the more often-used brackets and squirrely braces (closer to one side than center):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/adf6bcdab5e5a47527db27dc2de2f109

 

[Caine]

I'm all for making it easier to code, but I think this way it is easier to allow for things like (Meta+") then O = Ö.

I'm unsure of where you're thinking that []{}= will go. Will they go to the meta versions of ,.;'/, or replace them as the default keypress?

Yes, I was thinking about meta versions of those. I missed the meta for diacritics behaviour. That's a proper argument against my proposal.

Here's playing around with the locations of the []{}=/|, which I think might be easier for the more often-used brackets and squirrely braces (closer to one side than center):

Hmmm... that breaks the correspondence with the position of |\ on e.g. the UK keyboard layout. I think I liked the original better.
<edit>From a tabletop typing perspective I really have the urge to swap the top Fn key and the Pandora button.

On the other hand, I feel the Pandora button really belongs where it is. Tricky..

</edit>

 

[WizardStan]

I will make this suggestion: do not put "alternate" codes on the gamepad buttons. [...]

Are there any that do?

ible's did. It's been made better since.

 

[levi]

FWIW, I like Ible idea of prioritising {} over []. C/Java/Perl programmers will use curly braces for scoping a lot more than square for indexing. In writing text, square brackets are commonly used for references, but I'm not sure how many authors actually write those in manually.

 

[ible]

The problem is that () are probably more used in code than even [] and {} combined, but they are given as a shift 9 and 0 (and it's weird to see something other than those there).  I forgot about indexing with []; I might use [] a bit more than I thought.  At any rate, here's a spiritual successor to some of my first designs which allowed quick access to {}:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2939235f55e8b02e25b7d81576484ad3

You lose diacritic action, however, and enter is in a weird spot.  But yeah, it doesn't seem important to have {} and [] any more quickly accessible than ().

 

[Caine]

At any rate, here's a spiritual successor to some of my first designs which allowed quick access to {}:

No, no no. This is getting way worse. The sacrifices for quicker {} and [] access are way too big now(weird enter, ,.<> deviations from the "normal" keyboard, loss of diacritics, ...).

 

[Mr_Loon]

I've asked ED here (in the ask ED Questions thread) if Pyra will have a double width space key, awaiting response, I'll also post here if a response if forthcoming.

 

[_wb_]

Moved Insert and Delete away from + and - to avoid weird stuff in games that use the L2 shoulder button and the small action buttons.

Reordered \ | = [ ] { } into { } [ ] | \ = so now { } are in an arguably better spot, and also = is near < and > which kind of makes sense (in an arithmetic comparison sense).

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/1c67359aba7c88ff21de298fe8829e89

 

[ible]

I like it.  It seems a little more logical that way.  The British like \ and | near the left side of the keyboard, but I rarely use |.  I do use \ often enough to escape things, so I kinda liked it as on the UK keyboard (close to tab), but I think overall I prefer {} and [] closer than \.

Here is my latest version with that bracket order:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/2c86bb3c65a8d0f6b5e306efb2418f2a

Probably will update on the "final proposal" thread.

 

[LEOXD]

What do the + and - buttons do now? just insert these characters?

LED symbol and Hardware symbol look too similar IMHO. How about some kind of circle for one of them instead? ◍●◎

 

[Grench]

The recent keyboards from _wb_ and ible look pretty good for coding, email and general composition.  IMHO though they completely ignore gaming.  Let me explain.

Games that use the keyboard (Role Playing Games, First Person Shooters) tend to use either the number keys or the F1-F12 keys or in many cases, both sets.  To me, this makes it important to be able to 'lock' the Fn switch in such a way that these keys are accessible without additional modifiers for the duration of the game - and that it is easy to unlock, unshift, unFn - both temporarily and 'locked/unlocked'.

For games, I want all 4 shoulder buttons to be mouse buttons.  Mouse 1-4.  Think Fire, Secondary Fire, Grenade and Strafe.  Despite mapping the mouse functions to the shoulder buttons, I also want easy access to Alt-F3 or Ctrl-F12 or Alt-Ctrl-F7.  I.e. the keyboard modifiers are -in the way- if they're mapped to the shoulders.  However, they still need to be quickly accessible.

That is why I came up with this rather radical alternate layout.  It -looks- like a 'normal' keyboard with the double wide space bar and two sets of Shift, Alt and Ctrl keys.  The second Fn key and lack of a dedicated 'caps lock' key will cause some people to do a double take.  

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/4562af9f8d20cc476f635615e09965bc

Operation is simple.  Press both shift keys and it is the same as pressing 'Caps Lock' on a desktop keyboard.  Press both Fn keys and it locks the keyboard into the Fn (Orange here) mappings.  Same with Alt and Ctrl.  Need to unFn the Fn locked keyboard for a single letter?  Press Fn with one thumb (unFn when Fnlocked) and the letter with the other thumb.

It is, by design, a two thumb keyboard.  Either thumb has access to all Shift/Ctrl/Alt/Fn modifiers.  Modifiers can be 'chorded'.  So, if you want to do something as simple as, "Close a window using Alt-F4," on my layout that is -simple-.  Chord Fn+Alt with the right thumb and press F4 with the left thumb.  

Let's try that on the others presented above...?  You'll need to hold down Fn (Bottom Center OR Left shoulder 2) + Alt (Top Center OR Right shoulder 2) + R.  The combination makes the Vulcan grip seem easy and requires at least 3 fingers.  If you're 'in game' and using the shoulder buttons mapped to the game, this type of combination requires 3 fingers ON the keyboard.

On my keyboard ALL standard keyboard keys are accessible just using two thumbs - and usually with a single or compound action.  Need tab?  Use either thumb on the Fn key and touch space with the other.  Need back-tab?  Use either thumb to chord Fn and Shift and touch space with the other.  Using chording on the modifier bank allows -any- keyboard accessible combination to be accessed quickly and efficiently.

Let's try another example.  Windows users usually copy and paste with Ctrl-C and Ctrl-V.  I'm old school and use Ctrl-Insert and Shift-Insert.  Try that on the two versions above.  Then try it on mine.

Insert and Delete belong with Home, End, PgUp and PgDn.  Just look at the little 6 key inset on any proper keyboard.  F11 and F12 belong with F1-F10, not relegated off to some alternate key area.

The top center buttons between the nubs are the longest stretch for the thumbs - so they should be 'lightly used' or used for 'system functions'.  To that end I have mapped them to:

Esc (Escape), Fn=Keyboard Backlight Up/Down

LCD backlight Up/Down, Fn = HDMI on/off

USB on/off, Fn = 3g/4g (mobile wireless) on/off

WiFi on/off (802.11 radios), Fn = Bluetooth on/off

I'm convinced that I've come up with the most efficient design from a usage and versatility standpoint.  It should be the fastest thumb keyboard ever - and it's good for games.

When considering layouts, be sure to throw the 'real world' at them.  Include the 'Alt-F4 should be easy to access' test as well as the Ctrl+Ins copy Shift+Ins paste functionality.  Consider the keyboard combinations that you use in games you're playing now on your PC - and how often you use the Fn and number keys during those games - and how often you use more than 2 mouse buttons on a modern gaming setup.  Loosing the mouse buttons to keyboard modifiers isn't a good option.  Having to use 3 fingers on the top side of the keyboard to select a function key isn't either.

The above is in my own humble opinion.  I am the proponent of my own design.  However, I think it's being overlooked because it is so radically different from the other suggestions.  Please give it some usage example considerations - I think you'll like it.  Then think about how games will work with it - I think you'll love it.

 

[Askarus]

I've asked ED here (in the ask ED Questions thread) if Pyra will have a double width space key, awaiting response, I'll also post here if a response if forthcoming.

To give some answer:

The current state is double sized space bar.

The 3 3D printed prototype housing had it and also the first sample of the keymat is with a double sized space bar.

For the final housing I haven's heard of any plans to make the space bar smaller.

I would recommend to everyone who is discussing the layout to at lease have a backup solution with a double sized space bar where it in on no Pandora (Low keyboard row, second right button)

 

[ible]

What do the + and - buttons do now? just insert these characters?

LED symbol and Hardware symbol look too similar IMHO. How about some kind of circle for one of them instead? ◍●◎

Yes, the + and - buttons insert those characters.

Those circles seem a little ambiguous.  What are they supposed to represent?  Hardware or LEDs?

☢

▣

◒

Looking through unicode is fun.  The bottom one kinda looks like a light on/off, sorta.

 

[ible]

The recent keyboards from _wb_ and ible look pretty good for coding, email and general composition.  IMHO though they completely ignore gaming.  Let me explain.

We certainly have different goals in mind.  In _wb_'s layout, diacritics are easier to add for the international audience, and I think that's also a nice goal.  On your keyboard, however, you have to use compose -- e.g. it is impossible to choose "meta+O=Ö". 

One of my goals has been to make it look like a standard keyboard, so it's easier to pick up and understand.  I also want to avoid lots of meta keys in the regular keys, to avoid it looking cluttered (and this also helps with freeing things up for quick diacritics).  Your keyboard looks crazy, so it would have a steeper learning curve, but your goal is to speed things up in the long run.  (One could argue if you go with a Dvorak keyboard, you could make things even faster.)  

Beyond that, I am deeply troubled by your lack of faith in F11 and F12 being above all others .

 

[rygD]

☢

I like this one.


Edit:

Beyond that, I am deeply troubled by your lack of faith in F11 and F12 being above all others .

F12 is my most used function key on both my Pandora and other computers, for different reasons.

 

[Grench]

Your keyboard looks crazy, so it would have a steeper learning curve, but your goal is to speed things up in the long run.  (One could argue if you go with a Dvorak keyboard, you could make things even faster.)  

My keyboard isn't crazy - THIS keyboard is crazy:  

http://commerce.hpcalc.org/images/34s-angle-medium.jpg

And yes, I own one of those calculators and it's fantastic.

My keyboard looks and works more like a standard keyboard than any of the others proposed.  Look at your desktop keyboard.  

Where is the space bar?  

Can the space bar be accessed from either thumb?  

How many Alt keys?  Shift keys?  Ctrl keys?  

Are the function keys arranged in banks of 4?  

Is Insert and Delete in the same bank as Home, End, PgUp and PgDn?

If it is a full sized keyboard, does it have a number pad arranged as a 3x3 numeric grid?

How hard is it to reach modified function keys?  I.e. can you do Alt+Ctrl+F8 without requiring some funky death grip?

That said, the rest of the proposed layouts look more like the existing Pandora keyboard - which is a crazy set of compromises in itself.  We have the opportunity to go outside that box and make a true two thumb optimized keyboard.  I think it merits some real consideration.

 

[TrashyMG]

My keyboard isn't crazy - THIS keyboard is crazy:   http://commerce.hpca...ngle-medium.jpgAnd yes, I own one of those calculators and it's fantastic.

Pssh.. now for a real HP calculator my HP16C Programmable Calculator which resides in my office.

Spoiler

 

[Mr_Loon]

Thanks Askarus & ED for clarifying we will indeed be having a double sized space bar. Take it we should be looking at the keymat Photos here to see the base layout.

My general philosophy for a keyboard / button layout will be to attempt to find a combination of making the most frequently used keys / actions easy to execute (mouse buttons as buttons etc.) and having something that looks like a 'normal' qwerty keyboard. Should be a fun puzzle.

It would be useful to know if any plans have been made for the placement of a power button, or will that be on the keymat?

 

[levi]

For games, I want all 4 shoulder buttons to be mouse buttons. Mouse 1-4. Think Fire, Secondary Fire, Grenade and Strafe. Despite mapping the mouse functions to the shoulder buttons, I also want easy access to Alt-F3 or Ctrl-F12 or Alt-Ctrl-F7. I.e. the keyboard modifiers are -in the way- if they're mapped to the shoulders.

I like your keyboard design, and I think the idea of moving the numbers to be modifier-enabled in some way bears investigation - I don't use them all that often really, in comparison to lower case letters.

However, I strongly disagree with your decision to have the shoulders be mouse buttons/media keys only. It's proven very little problem for porters to make the Pandora shoulders be the action buttons in FPSes and the likes, so it seems a great shame to lose what I like the most in the Pandora's keyboard. That is, that I can get caps letters just by holding a shoulder button while typing, and having the symbol modifier (Fn on Pandora) up there as well on the Pyra can only be an improvement as I see it.


But thanks for your design. There are lots of neat ideas in there I like, such as affording the space for a proper space bar by eliminating the number row. Hopefully you could eliminate the tendency towards a mass of similar looking punctuation on some keys by moving some of those bits of syntactic sugar to the keys voided my moving secondary modifiers to the triggers, if my argument holds any water with you.

 

[Grench]

For games, I want all 4 shoulder buttons to be mouse buttons. Mouse 1-4. Think Fire, Secondary Fire, Grenade and Strafe. Despite mapping the mouse functions to the shoulder buttons, I also want easy access to Alt-F3 or Ctrl-F12 or Alt-Ctrl-F7. I.e. the keyboard modifiers are -in the way- if they're mapped to the shoulders.

I like your keyboard design, and I think the idea of moving the numbers to be modifier-enabled in some way bears investigation - I don't use them all that often really, in comparison to lower case letters.

However, I strongly disagree with your decision to have the shoulders be mouse buttons/media keys only. It's proven very little problem for porters to make the Pandora shoulders be the action buttons in FPSes and the likes, so it seems a great shame to lose what I like the most in the Pandora's keyboard. That is, that I can get caps letters just by holding a shoulder button while typing, and having the symbol modifier (Fn on Pandora) up there as well on the Pyra can only be an improvement as I see it.


But thanks for your design. There are lots of neat ideas in there I like, such as affording the space for a proper space bar by eliminating the number row. Hopefully you could eliminate the tendency towards a mass of similar looking punctuation on some keys by moving some of those bits of syntactic sugar to the keys voided my moving secondary modifiers to the triggers, if my argument holds any water with you.

Relying on shoulder buttons for modifiers isn't a solid solution.  Using the Pandora, try quickly pressing Ctrl+F6 in game with the shoulder buttons mapped and in use for the game.  Next vision doing the same action on any of the above layouts.  In all cases assume that the shoulder buttons are already in use by the game - which is what they're there for.

Where are the mouse buttons on the other layouts anyway?  Mine had them tentatively dual mapped to the nub-click and shoulders.  Nub-click has gone away with the new nubs.  I need to remove them from the nubs on my keyboard layout.  I don't even see them listed on the others - did I miss something?