An observation concerning bias


And no, quoting someone else - Correctly, I might add - is not grounds for banning. Don't be silly. Quoting someone else is the very basis for being able to follow a coherent argument on these boards (not that this is very evident in this thread, but still). It is a basic function of the social interaction system of these boards.

If you don't want something you wrote to be quoted, then don't write it. Neither you nor anybody else has the power to selectively forbid someone else to quote what you've actually written. And retconning reality by editing your posts after-the-fact does not make the original post go away. We are all grown-ups here, which means that we are expected to be responsible for our own actions.
Quoting someone IN A SIG LINE...without their permission is a whole different thing and you know it, Moxie.

you just hate me, and so you want to let ZXDunny who also hates me...make fun of me.

You are a sorry excuse for a Mod if you allow that to fly, when you know it is deliberately intended to be cruel.

Never speak to me again, Moxie, if you are gonna let that stand.  I mean it.  I got no use for you if you can't tell the difference between quoting a person in a post...and quoting someone in a sgline...WITH THE OBVIOUS INTENT OF PROVOKING THE QUOTED PERSON.

And don't give me shit that you can't know intentions...my aching ASS you can't.
I don't hate you, Kumaki. I don't think anybody here does. 

The problem is that the world doesn't work the way you want it to. It would be so much easier if it did. And I agree - I would think it would be a lot easier if the world worked the way I wanted it to. But it doesn't. The real world isn't made to order for any particular person. 

See, when I (or someone else) say stuff like:

* We cannot ban people for "Writing in the same thread as Kumaki" or "Quoting my posts".

* It would help if you read the documentation before asking questions.

* We must have rules and principles that apply the same for any member.

* Writing in random caps and swearing at people makes you come across in a screaming, aggressive way.

...and so on, this is not random things we say to annoy you, or because we hate you - This is the way the world is. It would help if you read the documentation properly before you asked (and since the information you needed was in there, you obviously didn't). The nature of running a forum with hundreds of members makes it necessary to have rules applicable equally for all. And so on. And you fly in the face of people who says things like this and call them this and that and say that they hate you or "won't give you a shred of support" and so on...but it really isn't something that could be realistically changed. You have the choice in your hand - You can continue to beat yourself ragged against the world, or you could try to develop strategies to deal with the way the world is, but either way, the choice is yours. 

Does ZXDunny put that quote in his sig just to "make fun of you"? Possibly. Or, possibly, because it turned out a funny phrase. I'd hazard the first one, myself, but either way this is the way the world is: You write something on the internet - Others can read it and quote it. The only way to make it impossible for others to quote you is not to write. If that is not an option, you'll need a strategy to cope with people reading and quoting. It's as simple as that. And when people tell you this, it is not because we hate you, it is just a stating of the facts. The way the world is. 

And, about haters and friends: Look at yourself. Look at how things change. In the beginning, I was your best of friends, according to yourself - I helped you figure out the TRS-80 emulator and find the games that you remembered. Me and ZXDunny were your allies when "the neckbeards" couldn't understand how programming in C or (*shudder*) Java could be unnecessarily complex. ZXDunny wrote this nice little Basic that you could use for a little programming on the go. Now, you're convinced that we hate you. DaMummy was "up to no good" and the "type" who wilfully disrupts conversations just for fun. You were to "bonk" him on sight. Now, he's best of friends and your ally. Lately, apparently, mccobit also hates you, and that despite the fact that he patiently has helped you through several problems. One day friends, the next day "hate", and then back again. Does this make sense at all? Do you truly, honestly, believe that peoples personalities change around like this? Or is it, maybe, possibly, the case that you tend to overreact to the smallest things when you are feeling insecure, and that suddenly makes you reevaluate everyone and everything whenever things don't go your way? Because, honestly, having seen DaMummy and ZXDunny around for a fairly long time, I must say that I have certainly not detected any personality changes on that level, and I doubt anybody else has either. 

Because you do that when you get into insecure territory. When there is something you don't get, you get insecure, and when you get insecure you are convinced that everyone around you are making fun of you, and when you get that feeling, you lash out at people. Aggressively, unfairly and baselessly. Which has both the effect of making you look ridiculous (and thus induces people to actually make fun of you -  What DaMummy refered to as "setting yourself up with a target on the tail" or whatever it was), and the effect of alienating the people who are, patiently, trying to help. "But NOBODY else are getting these BARBED REMARKS" - Oh yes they do. Or not, as the case might be - a not insignificant amount of what you perceive as barbed or poisoned comments reads completely innocent to most of us. But do look back at people who has had similar traits of lashing out at people who try to help, or impatiently demanded that their problems be solved NOW, DAMMIT!!! Look back at threads with hakmanplayer or RedBaron or people like that. They were getting far more of barbed comments and flat out hostilities. In comparison, you are getting treated with rather soft gloves.

That does not change your experience, of course. And when someone has had experiences that has lead to bullying or insecurity before in their lives, then sometimes the trigger for believing that someone is making fun of you is very, very sensitive. There is, however, a difference between the belief/personal experience on one hand and the actual reality and intentions of others on the other. You have a choice, Kumaki. You can choose to try to work with this and try to deal with the world as it is. Or you can decide that your own belief and experience ought to shape the world, and rage against anyone who don't agree. I'm fairly certain that it isn't yet too late to do the former on these boards. If you want to. But, again: It is your choice.
 
8365d1353423498-nyc-does-not-reflect-our-entire-state-y-u-no-let-thread-die.jpg


:(
 
Actually, it was a little of the former (can't resist an opportunity to take the piss) but mostly it was the latter - having had an enormous screaming fit in my direction, she then said that we were going to kiss and make up.

How many people would be able to let that one go? Seriously?

So quote-worthy, it really was. More even than horse-penis in anus (which incidentally didn't get removed whereas mine did!).

I did make an off-the cuff remark about Kumaki [...], which honestly was just intended to be funny rather than insulting. Had I known beforehand what I know about her past now, I'd certainly not have made this remark and I can see how hurtful it is now, with greater knowledge than I had before. So I am sorry for that one, and I'm glad the mods removed it.

D.
 
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Moxie, you're so eloquent!


That's pretty much what I was trying to get across earlier. :)


And now for a tad more of FaeMinx's in-sane view of reality:


@Kumaki: One of the twisted and seemingly unfair qualities of the reality we all find ourselves in... Is this:


In spite of how convincing 'reality' is to our senses, it actually holds no meaning or value whatsoever. The value anything has is created *entirely* in our minds. Thus it is your *perceptions* that give meaning to the world. This is where the issues come up, because nobody else but ourselves can see things the way we do and experience things just as we do.


So while it appears we all live in one big world and need to learn how to get along, that is simply not the case.


The truth is we all live in our own little worlds - each completely unique and personal, and the responsibility of nobody but the creator of that world.


What does this mean? It means that for all of us, pretty much everything we perceive is a reality that we ourselves create and that exists within us and us alone.


What usually happens when we express this reality and other people go:


'What... Really? Are you sure?... I didn't see it this way...'


We will go out of our way to *prove* that what we see is THE truth. Because our sense of self and our self value is tied up in how we perceive things.


So while other people are simple trying to defend their reality (i.e. their perceptions / self worth / way of life), we will see their position as an attack on us.. a very PERSONAL attack.


And thus a huge drama ensues where nothing of any true value is achieved... All that will happen is a power struggle to determine who has the more 'valid' reality... In other words: My stick is bigger than your stick. :)


In the end, all participants in the drama will *still* be living in their own little worlds. So what was the point?


Some will feel diminished by the exchange, and will make efforts to re-empower themselves by seeking out a situation or opponent where they can 'win' and thus convince themselves once again that they were valid after all.


Those that felt empowered by the exchange will only feel like they are valid / their thought & actions justified till a bigger more experienced dog comes along with conflicting / contradictory perceptions... Wash, rinse, repeat.


The only time there will be peace and understanding amongst people, is when we no longer feel the need to defend our perceptions... and THIS will only be possible when people no longer invest self-value in perception.


'Impossible!' I hear you say. 'If how I think and perceive is not who I am then who and what am I?'


Ah. Now this is an excellent question. Perhaps the only question worth seeking an answer to in this ever changing transient paradoxical reality that we each find ourselves in. :)


The irony? It's the same answer for everyone, but nobody can communicate /give the answer to anyone else. The only way to know the answer is to *be* the answer.


When you *are* the answer, then nothing in the 'outside world' will be perceived as a threat. It will simply be what it is and nothing more - neither right nor wrong. Just what it is.


And after this looooong diatribe, I have no idea if anything I've said has been understood by anyone else. All I can be sure of is that I've been talking about myself to myself. That is all I can *know* with absolute certainty, and thus that is all that I have been doing:


Having a relationship with myself and using perceived external forces as the medium by which I can have / 'play out' that relationship. :)


So in light of everything I've said, wouldn't it be great, Kumaki, if you really could kiss and make up, with... yourself? ;)
 
man what the hell are you smoking?
>.>
<.<


...


:3


Edit: To the layman I would say: 'A psychoactive herb'.


To those 'in the know', I would say: 'A genetically designed symbiotic fractal organ that serves to amplify network functions between bio-feedback quantum processing nodes within the mind of KAL.'
 
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I'm not sure why I'm being demonized and accused of nefarious plots.  For the record I said caps.  Not all caps.  There is a difference.  People use caps for emphasis all the time.

Here's an example

So while other people are simple trying to defend their reality (i.e. their perceptions / self worth / way of life), we will see their position as an attack on us.. a very PERSONAL attack.
As usual feel free to hate as you like [edit: not directed at the above quote].  I qualified my statement by saying that guidelines are useful and because of bias some people's thoughts are prone to be disregarded.  It seems people whle agreeing with me, attack me for it at the same time.

I'm not trying to remove anyone's right for expressing hate for someone merely because of how they choose to express themselves.  I'm saying it's low because you are attacking the person rather than the argument the person is making, primarily because the data used to present the argument doesn't meet the norms that you've decided that everyone should adhere to.

4=2+2 is just as valid as 2+2=4. Freaking out because someone chose the former rather than the latter seems odd to me.  People are saying relax.  That's what I'M saying as well.  Everything is a lesson if you choose to learn from it.

I'm not attacking anyone.  Just making an observation.  With all this freedom of speech talk, I'm not sure why I'm getting so much hate for expressing an observation concerning bias.

For instance

So I was reading a little on how a forum member was getting heat for using CAPS to express herself.  I thought how ridiculous is that!  Really? CAPS?!  Then I thought back to the first time I came across this bias on these boards.
Not here.
I was talking about my own bias.  Granted I'm a poor communicator (and perhaps some bias on your part allowed you to miss this contextual distinction) but I was talking about MY bias.

You can tell because the very next sentence explained what I meant.

Here it is so you can see

Then I thought back to the first time I came across this bias on these boards. 

I noticed a signature that one might call garish.  It stood out and annoyed me I then became annonyed with myself for being annoyed in the first place!  How dare I judge another person that expresses themselve in this fashion.  I remembered having that same "judgy" feeling when I came across users on other boards that always seemed to want to draw attention to themselve by posting in some non default colour. They always seemed to have some hippy name like Moonbeam, or Wayfarer.  Then I realized that I didn't have a problem with the DATA that was being presented.  The fault lay instead with my brain, and the fact that my own intelligence was not fluid enough to appreciate different and sometimes novel data types.
From my point of view we've established how bias can attribute malevolent intention, when none was meant. I'm not directly attacking anyone in particular, and just used an example to illustrate my thoughts on bias and why it's ridiculous to attack someone because they use caps (not all caps, mind you) to express themselves.  I provided data on notational bias as a supporting argument and stated that bias itself is not necessarily a bad thing.

I present fuzzy wuzzies as a peace offering.

https://www.youtube.com/embed/z5bF4cw52z8?feature=oembed
 
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man what the hell are you smoking?
I think what the person is saying is that we all live in a mutable reality.  By definition this reality exists in our heads because the brain is what decodes the sensory perception (eyes, ears, nose, thoughts) of what we perceive reality to be.  Further, in this way each person is necessarily alien to one another. In some ways it could be argued that everyone ELSE is a robot zombie and you are the only real thing.

I just think that to better navigate this mutable, consensus based reality we could start by giving another persons viewpoint and means of expressing oneself some leeway.  Try to interpret what another is saying from more than one viewpoint, and choose to accept the most benign interpretation instead of calling people names or questioning their motives.

Edit:

Philosophic zombie

Mutable Reality [1] [2] (If you only click one link, make it number 2 the second one.)
 
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I'm not trying to remove anyone's right for expressing hate for someone merely because of how they choose to express themselves.  I'm saying it's low because you are attacking the person rather than the argument the person is making, primarily because the data used to present the argument doesn't meet the norms that you've decided that everyone should adhere to.

4=2+2 is just as valid as 2+2=4. Freaking out because someone chose the former rather than the latter seems odd to me.  People are saying relax.  That's what I'M saying as well.  Everything is a lesson if you choose to learn from it.

I'm not attacking anyone.  Just making an observation.  With all this freedom of speech talk, I'm not sure why I'm getting so much hate for expressing an observation concerning bias.
Asking someone to communicate more clearly does not express hate or aggression.   If anything, it expresses an interest in further communication.

Communication is about more than just expressing ideas, it's about expressing ideas and having them be understood.     You can express yourself until you are blue in the face, but if no-one is able to understand what it is you are trying to express then it's a wasted effort.

Doesn't it make sense therefore to choose the method and format which will be most clearly understood? By extension, doesn't it also make sense to try to convince others to do the same?

- Neelix
 
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If zou are interested in human bias in forecsting, economics and science I can reccommend this blog: http://www.overcomingbias.com/ One of the major focuses is in using betting markets to aggregate information about future outcomes. Essentially by betting on a future outcome, each participant reveals how much confidence (and by aggregation, how much information) he has about the probability of the designated event occurring.


It's a fascinating and wide ranging blog, with the older posts (starting around 2006) being more focused.
 
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I'm not trying to remove anyone's right for expressing hate for someone merely because of how they choose to express themselves.&nbsp; I'm saying it's low because you are attacking the person rather than the argument the person is making, primarily because the data used to present the argument doesn't meet the norms that you've decided that everyone should adhere to.
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4=2+2 is just as valid as 2+2=4. Freaking out because someone chose the former rather than the latter seems odd to me.&nbsp; People are saying relax.&nbsp; That's what I'M saying as well.&nbsp; Everything is a lesson if you choose to learn from it.
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I'm not attacking anyone.&nbsp; Just making an observation.&nbsp; With all this freedom of speech talk, I'm not sure why I'm getting so much hate for expressing an observation concerning bias.
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Asking someone to communicate more clearly does not express hate or aggression.&nbsp;&nbsp; If anything, it expresses an interest in further communication.
&nbsp;
Communication is about more than just expressing ideas, it's about expressing ideas and having them be understood.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; You can express yourself until you are blue in the face, but if no-one is able to understand what it is you are trying to express then it's a wasted effort.
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Doesn't it make sense therefore to choose the method and format which will be most clearly understood? By extension, doesn't it also make sense to try to convince others to do the same?
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- Neelix
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Yes. I mentioned earlier that guidelines are a good thing. I don't [edit: think] anyone can sensibly disagree with the points you are making. However they are not counter to the points I'm making. I'm sorry I'm a poor explainer of things, so my point does not come across more clearly. I will say however, that there is a difference between asking for someone to be more clearer and judging/bagging on someone for their posting style. Thanks for your input. I tend to agree with you.

Also Klapse thank you for the link. I will investigate it thoroughly!
 
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Very well...   Can you point out an example of where someone judged/bagged someone else for their posting style in direct response to the post in question?  I don't remember seeing that.

- Neelix
 
I'm not pointing fingers.  Just making an observation and flapping my gums at the same time.
 
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