Action button labels

[comradekingu]

I think something unrelated stears clear of all conventions, also it can have colours for ease of whatever.

Then again, im not against blank keys.

 

[Natsu]

• It's impossible to create a design that fits all of the emulated systems, so it does not need have to be based on any of them.
• Easy recognizable and memorable by any gamer (so no complex shapes, etc.)

Well, Latin fit these more than Greek does and at least most of these emulated systems have Latin too.We do want a layout that makes sense.

So far, both Greek shapes and Latin characters are usable for that.

Shouldn't we choose the most useable? Greek only as usable in the ones that look like Latin which doesn'tmake sense if you actually look at the Greek alphabet.

Well, there are a lot of homebrew games or emulators, etc. for the Pandora out already.

They all already have stuff like "Press A to run and X to Jump" included. Changing the layout with latin letters would mean that all these would have to be changed and recompiled for the Pyra... which is a lot of work and I'm not sure everyone will do that.

You mean Greek?

one similar to the Pandoras layout (which sounds okay for me, as it's easy to figure out when running Pandora homebrew).

If we have to have Greek, but I see no compelling reason for it.

Everything else doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe someone can explain to me why exactly we need to change our current layout...?

It doesn't help with emulators, but it makes things a lot more confusing for existing Pandora programs and homebrew.

Cue Kiga.
They said it differentiate from the keyboard because apparently people can't do that when they can connect their gamepad

to a computer or laptop or see that the other buttons are separated from the keyboard.

They will be confused, so let's use even more confusing symbols/letters such as Greek for the customers and devs. 

So my idea is:

Either keep the current layout (and add something new like I and II for the two new buttons (like PC Engine))

I prefer this. Although I still think a rearrangement of the Pandora layout would be best, so ABC XYZ looks better.

Would be less work for devs than Greek letters.

 

[Neelix]

I've seen the greek letters - and basically two different layouts:

One similar to the PSX (which doesn't make sense to me because it's no PSX) and one similar to the Pandoras layout (which sounds okay for me, as it's easy to figure out when running Pandora homebrew).

Everything else doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe someone can explain to me why exactly we need to change our current layout...?

It doesn't help with emulators, but it makes things a lot more confusing for existing Pandora programs and homebrew.

Changing the current layout is desirable mainly for these three reasons:

- Unlike dedicated game consoles, the Pyra has a keyboard which already has buttons labeled with A, B, X and Y (and C, Z, I). Although the confusion this causes can somewhat be avoided by using graphical images like guihints or by using language conventions like "A button" and "A key", it is still not considered to be good practice to have two different buttons with the same label.

- The Pandora layout is different from all other major consoles which can be emulated on it. It is unavoidable to be different from many of them, but it is not necessary to be different from all of them. When playing emulated games, you have to mentally map physical buttons to emulated buttons. This is harder if the source and target set of symbols are the same. E.g. to play SNES games on the Pandora you have to remember that A is B, B is X, Y is A, X is Y. By using a different symbol set, you still have to learn a mapping, but at least there is less potential confusion.

Exactly this.  I always considered it a design flaw of the Pandora that there were multiple buttons with the same names.

However given these considerations:

• Developers of homebrew games should not have to use any additional images / etc. just for "Press XYZ Button to continue", whatever font they use.
• It's impossible to create a design that fits all of the emulated systems, so it does not need have to be based on any of them.
• Easy recognizable and memorable by any gamer (so no complex shapes, etc.)

 - I don't think Greek letters are a very good fit.  I also think choosing a different layout of single Latin characters makes no sense. 

What I think would be a good fit - given all the above considerations - would be to use multi-character labels with Latin letters.  A collection of short words or syllables for example:

• Fee Fie Foe Fum
• Do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti

Neither of these examples strike me as being the best choices,  but should give you an idea what I think we should be looking for.

Another good option would be a simple alphanumeric sequence like G1-G6.  This idea appeals to me personally as it is consistent with the uncontested shoulder button labelling convention of L1, L2, R1, R2, but doesn't seem to be very popular for some reason.

- Neelix

 

[WizardStan]

Well, there are a lot of homebrew games or emulators, etc. for the Pandora out already.

They all already have stuff like "Press A to run and X to Jump" included. Changing the layout with latin letters would mean that all these would have to be changed and recompiled for the Pyra... which is a lot of work and I'm not sure everyone will do that.

You mean Greek?

No, he means latin. He's talking about still using ABXY but changing the positions: that would require changing existing apps, and anyone that wanted to do a simultaneous Pandora/Pyra release would need to change their documentation at least.

 

[Natsu]

Then again, im not against blank keys.

As someone said, that would be confusing unless we do that face swapping idea.

Another good option would be a simple alphanumeric sequence like G1-G6. This idea appeals to me personally as it is consistent with the uncontested shoulder button labelling convention of L1,L2, R1, R2, but doesn't seem to be very popular for some reason.

I don't think it would look good on the face buttons. May as well use 1-6 'cause I don't think anyone want to use 1 on the keyboard than 1 on the button as two different actions or Roman numbers. I guess they don't look too bad. <_<

No, he means latin. He's talking about still using ABXY but changing the positions: that would require changing existing apps, and anyone that wanted to do a simultaneous Pandora/Pyra release would need to change their documentation at least.

Oh. I thought he was talking about the difficulty for devs to change them to Greek. At least changing the positions would keepthe same letters.

 

[_wb_]

G1-G6 is a good idea. A bit boring, but functional.

Waldo    Bar

Foo                  Baz

Fred      Qux

Z6    Y5

A1            B2

W3   X4

 

[Granitehead]

I would actually be quite okay with G1-G6. It's just a very technical/boring way to label them. Better than ABXY, worse than Greek.

I would love it if someone came up with a sequence of geometrical objects which have an integer parameter which can be set from 0 or 1 to 5 or 6. Would need to be:

-easy to distinguish

-easy to describe (ideally, one would just need to understand a very basic idea behind it and afterwards it would be easy to call them by their parameter - (3) or G3 or Gaming button 3 or just button 3 or something)

-pretty

 

[LEOXD]

Waldo    Bar

Foo                  Baz

Fred      Qux

Why only 5 buttons?

 

[_jr_]

One important reason to change the labels is that these 'buttons' (unlike the ones on normal controllers) are actually 'keys' with Home/End/PgUp/PgDn binding. This is a major feature for everybody not only using it to play action games and as the Pyra will be even more of a desktop replacement I think these bindings should be obvious, because even more ported apps will have something like [Ctrl-Del] as GUI hints. Actually in some PC game ports the in app key binding GUI will already indicate them as such. One solution would be to just label them Home/End/PgUp/PgDn/Ins/Del, their use as gaming controls is obvious and as Klumpen and others have stated the actual labels are not really relevant while gaming (and the non standard A/B/X/Y layout even potentially confusing).


But Home/End:etc. is just as dull as A/B/X/Y. Some graphical symbols would be really nice and - surprise - some (most?) desktop keyboards use graphical symbols on Home/End/etc. The alchemy element symbols are one IMO very nice solution (air and earth could be rotated to point horinzontally, but I think it is fine as it is, because beginning and end could be vertical and actually are e.g. in less). There may be even better ones. For added backward compatibility the A/B/X/Y labels could be worked into the symbol, though I agree with some posts that that isn't neccessary (and even preserves the ambiguity).


Thanks to _wb_ for producing new variants!

 

[Kiga]

I always considered it a design flaw of the Pandora that there were multiple buttons with the same names.

Exactly.

Then again, im not against blank keys.

I voted for blank keys too,

Either keep the current layout (and add something new like I and II for the two new buttons (like PC Engine)) or use the greek one which is similar to our current one.
However, that would probably still be a bit annoying for devs... if I'd be coding a game, I would need to look up how to type greek letters on my keyboard.

Greek letters that look like Pandora would be a compromise and far better than Latin since it would resolve the fundamental problem of having same labels.

One similar to the PSX (which doesn't make sense to me because it's no PSX)

I think a lot of people will play often to psp with the Pyra, it would be easier with these labels. It's not like they are PSX symbols, they are real letters, if fonts which are well balanced between "shape" and "letters like the one in my signature is chosen, there will be no problem.

What I think would be a good fit - given all the above considerations - would be to use multi-character labels with Latin letters.  A collection of short words or syllables for example:

• Fee Fie Foe Fum
• Do, re, mi, fa, so, la, ti

Weird, but that's a good idea.

 

[Kiga]

 Ø       

  ¾            ¼

 ∞      ½

It would be like a clock, so very easy to remember, with 2/2 instead of 0 or 1 to match with 1/2 as 1/4 match with 3/4.

     

 

[slaeshjag]

If you were do go with G1-G6, I'd rather see you use letter pairs, X1-X2, Y1-Y2, Z1-Z2. Or some other letters.

 

[Neelix]

If you were do go with G1-G6, I'd rather see you use letter pairs, X1-X2, Y1-Y2, Z1-Z2. Or some other letters.

I'll let you and Tenka battle that one out then

My original suggestion was 2 groups of three, (eg C1,-C3 & Z1-Z3) but that was predicated on a somewhat sega-like button layout.  Given the current layout with 4 larger buttons and 2 smaller ones a 4/2 split doesn't seem unreasonable.  

- Neelix

 

[_jr_]

Which buttons woud you pair, given the layout? Left/right, up/down, and the two new ones?

 

[levi]

Everything else doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe someone can explain to me why exactly we need to change our current layout...?


It doesn't help with emulators, but it makes things a lot more confusing for existing Pandora programs and homebrew.

The reason *I* dislike the current layout is it gives no clue as to what should be the prime button. Some games use A, especially those that were coded without reference to a real Pandora, and assumed A would be a sensible button to use. Many games then used B, perhaps after the Nintendo layout, or perhaps because our version of uboot uses it as 'select'. Lately, the X button seems to be a popular choice, following the Sega/MS/western PSX standard. If the A button had been in a sensible location within easy reach every game would use that (apart from the odd PC port using Enter) and it wouldn't be guesswork every time you start a new game.

It shouldn't irritate me, but the fact we've still not really settled on a winner between B and X does I'm afraid.

 

[Klumpen]

After reading too much of these threads, I came to the conclusion, that the buttons should be labeled A+V+G+N and S+P for the two additonal ones.

 

[Neelix]

Everything else doesn't really make sense to me, but maybe someone can explain to me why exactly we need to change our current layout...?


It doesn't help with emulators, but it makes things a lot more confusing for existing Pandora programs and homebrew.

The reason *I* dislike the current layout is it gives no clue as to what should be the prime button. Some games use A, especially those that were coded without reference to a real Pandora, and assumed A would be a sensible button to use. Many games then used B, perhaps after the Nintendo layout, or perhaps because our version of uboot uses it as 'select'. Lately, the X button seems to be a popular choice, following the Sega/MS/western PSX standard. If the A button had been in a sensible location within easy reach every game would use that (apart from the odd PC port using Enter) and it wouldn't be guesswork every time you start a new game.

I agree with this too.  If there is any kind of sequence indicated by the chosen set of labels I think that the buttons called  X and B on the Pandora should be first buttons in the sequence, as they are the easiest to reach.

- Neelix

 

[Tenka]

If you were do go with G1-G6, I'd rather see you use letter pairs, X1-X2, Y1-Y2, Z1-Z2. Or some other letters.

I'll let you and Tenka battle that one out then

My original suggestion was 2 groups of three, (eg C1,-C3 & Z1-Z3) but that was predicated on a somewhat sega-like button layout.  Given the current layout with 4 larger buttons and 2 smaller ones a 4/2 split doesn't seem unreasonable.  

- Neelix

Am I that predictable?  If using a different style like G1-G6, I think choosing letters which were used in the previous button layout is aiming for confusion.  Yes X Y and Z are widely used, but if we choose them simply because they're widely used then I think that's probably why they are widely used.  We could give some other letters love.  I think a standard character along with a number is a very fine choice, but I do not know which order the current shape of six numbers should take.  Maybe a spiral.

G5   G4

   G1   G3

G6   G2

I don't especially care for the letter G myself, but I get it and don't have any less personal ideas.

 

[Kiga]

We could give some other letters love.

Lol, I agree.

But a single letter with numbers are boring and   x,y,z corrsespond to the usual 3D axes in math, so it would be easy to remember for me.

Z1    Y1

X1          X2

Z2    Y2

But I don't really like that because that divides clearly in 3 part while there isn't any logic with it. It could affect how we play. In the same manner unary labelling like G1-G6 isn't good.

 

[Tenka]

We could give some other letters love.

Lol, I agree.

But a single letter with numbers are boring and   x,y,z corrsespond to the usual 3D axes in math, so it would be easy to remember for me.

Z1    Y1

X1          X2

Z2    Y2

But I don't really like that because that divides clearly in 3 part while there isn't any logic with it. It could affect how we play. In the same manner unary labelling like G1-G6 isn't good.

That's unnecessary though, and using the same letter more than once while also using the same number more than once is unnecessarily complicated.  I don't think that three different normal letters are any more boring than one normal letter, but I don't think this kind of theme is prioritizing being interesting.  They are only two character buttons so they will not be confused with a one character key.