A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[b1llygo4t]

oh. hey look. we can petition to FORCE craig into bankruptcy https://www.gov.uk/creditor-bankruptcy-petitions

 

[b1llygo4t]

his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

out all his assets

 

[hedwards]

ha so i complain about getting ripped off (that IS what is happening) and left in the dust and people call me a dick.


its called free enterprise. I made a gamble and SO did craig, SO did everyone else involved with craig AND OP. when you file bankruptcy you liquidate assets and pay off depts. when you file a class action lawsuit the lawyer takes a percentage of the payout after the fact.. look it up... oh wait i just did https://www.gov.uk/bankruptcy/overview http://class-actions...Action-FAQ.html


if craig files bankruptcy he loses everything, thats the name of the game. screw me screw yourself.


@ titsuckers:: quit putting craig on a pedestal. as far as i can tell hes just an investor, salesman and founding member. and con artist. cut this turd loose. OP would be better off in the long run if they survive.

I'm sorry, but that's a complete load. The attorneys can try to collect against whatever assets the LTD has at that point. Any money and assets that Craig has are his. That's what having a LTD means. You're not on the hook for any of it.


Then again, you're a troll so I'm not going to feed you.

his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

out all his assets

No, out of the companies assets, that's what being incorporated as an Ltd means.

 

[b1llygo4t]

ha so i complain about getting ripped off (that IS what is happening) and left in the dust and people call me a dick.


its called free enterprise. I made a gamble and SO did craig, SO did everyone else involved with craig AND OP. when you file bankruptcy you liquidate assets and pay off depts. when you file a class action lawsuit the lawyer takes a percentage of the payout after the fact.. look it up... oh wait i just did https://www.gov.uk/bankruptcy/overview http://class-actions...Action-FAQ.html


if craig files bankruptcy he loses everything, thats the name of the game. screw me screw yourself.


@ titsuckers:: quit putting craig on a pedestal. as far as i can tell hes just an investor, salesman and founding member. and con artist. cut this turd loose. OP would be better off in the long run if they survive.

I'm sorry, but that's a complete load. The attorneys can try to collect against whatever assets the LTD has at that point. Any money and assets that Craig has are his. That's what having a LTD means. You're not on the hook for any of it.


Then again, you're a troll so I'm not going to feed you.

his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

out all his assets

No, out of the companies assets, that's what being incorporated as an Ltd means.

unless *he


* intentionally does something fraudulent, illegal, or reckless that causes harm to the company or to someone else, or


* treats the LLC as an extension of his or her personal affairs, rather than as a separate legal entity...


so what happened to the 70 or so pandoras that.... donations... ect.

 

[b1llygo4t]

**This last exception is the most important. If owners don't treat the LLC as a separate business, a court might decide that the LLC doesn't really exist and find that its owners are really doing business as individuals who are personally liable for their acts.


i went to OpenPandora.org to buy a pandora. i didnt go to craigsgonnaripmeoff.com or evildragonwillsitcomplacentlyby.com


::EDIT:: call me a god damned troll. i paid good money 4 years ago for this. go ahead and feed yourself your own line of crap. i hope your waiting just like me. ::insulting word that wont get me banned::

 

[jus1982b]

Lets do some rough maths


If Craig has:


1) 700 classic Pre-orders to fulfill +


2) 70 1Ghz to fulfill and


3) has no money left.


Assuming this (may/may not be the case). ED has said it will take 190 new Pandora sales to make the money needed to fulfill the 70 1Ghz orders. Assuming the same rate to clear the 700 pre-orders, 2090 new Pandora sales need to be made to clear Craig's backlog of Pandora sales.


Feel free to correct any assumptions that are wrong

Let’s do some something as well if we’re going down assumption lane





1. Create a awesome product on "paper"


2. Don’t plan for various short falls associated manufacturing


3. Create a preorder for a product that is not even in production


4. Realize that the product through various problem falls short in production and cost tones of money


5. Decided to do another pre order for a little bit better product that is not in production and still have a large number of existing preorders

 

[dooble]

I appreciate the history. Typically when engaging a company for custom or unique parts like the nubs, you do an investigation into the financial health of the company, plans for business continuation, etc. When engaging a CM, the contracts need to be carefully reviewed and understood as to who is responsible to what and all conditions. In my last company we had our own manufacturing team that would work with major CMs to optimize the process for yield. We provided the test that had to be performed to validate good units, usually a functional test, not ICT. I'm not sure who was contractually responsible these or many other items. The board layout, stencil design, choice of solder paste and flux (etc.) can all effect yield on a product on a manufacturing line. There are so many other items that should be considered in manufacturing a product.


I'm not going to point fault as Ed, Craig, or CC. I don't have enough information to make an educated determination of fault.


I've been off the boards for a little bit and this thread has exploded. So what is the real status? Has Craig bailed or is this the same old conjecture? All I know is that I have not received an acknowledgement of my last request from Craig.


doob

It's great if you happen to have the money for your own team of engineers, otherwise, you don't really have that option.


And yes, it's just the same Craig defrauded us conjecture. Neglecting of course that as a Ltd, his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

I would not consider what I'm saying as the same as "Craig defrauded us" in any sense. I am saying that blaming CC, or nubs event, etc without more information. And I can't see how anything in the post would be taken as saying "defraud". I apologize if it comes across that way. I admit that one could possibly take what I said as they did not fully understand all the ins and outs of how to deal with manufacturing vendors to maintain a reliable production/supply chain. But missing some details and due diligence items is really far from deliberate fraud.


And yes I agree that they don't have the availability of a team of engineers. All the more for needing a very good engineer and contract lawyer. Again, I know they can't afford those either. This just means more risks. All I was stating was that without more information I could not guess on fault, that is who did not comply with the contract. I do not expect it posted here and am not asking for it. I'm not a lawyer and likely could not interpret it properly.

 

[jus1982b]

I appreciate the history. Typically when engaging a company for custom or unique parts like the nubs, you do an investigation into the financial health of the company, plans for business continuation, etc. When engaging a CM, the contracts need to be carefully reviewed and understood as to who is responsible to what and all conditions. In my last company we had our own manufacturing team that would work with major CMs to optimize the process for yield. We provided the test that had to be performed to validate good units, usually a functional test, not ICT. I'm not sure who was contractually responsible these or many other items. The board layout, stencil design, choice of solder paste and flux (etc.) can all effect yield on a product on a manufacturing line. There are so many other items that should be considered in manufacturing a product.


I'm not going to point fault as Ed, Craig, or CC. I don't have enough information to make an educated determination of fault.


I've been off the boards for a little bit and this thread has exploded. So what is the real status? Has Craig bailed or is this the same old conjecture? All I know is that I have not received an acknowledgement of my last request from Craig.


doob

It's great if you happen to have the money for your own team of engineers, otherwise, you don't really have that option.


And yes, it's just the same Craig defrauded us conjecture. Neglecting of course that as a Ltd, his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

I would not consider what I'm saying as the same as "Craig defrauded us" in any sense. I am saying that blaming CC, or nubs event, etc without more information. And I can't see how anything in the post would be taken as saying "defraud". I apologize if it comes across that way. I admit that one could possibly take what I said as they did not fully understand all the ins and outs of how to deal with manufacturing vendors to maintain a reliable production/supply chain. But missing some details and due diligence items is really far from deliberate fraud.


And yes I agree that they don't have the availability of a team of engineers. All the more for needing a very good engineer and contract lawyer. Again, I know they can't afford those either. This just means more risks. All I was stating was that without more information I could not guess on fault, that is who did not comply with the contract. I do not expect it posted here and am not asking for it. I'm not a lawyer and likely could not interpret it properly.

People who create a company and take people’s money are responsible for these actions. Regardless of anything that occurs there the figure heads of the respective company.

 

[WorldTripping]

All you numpties quoting class action suits need to understand that we don't have those in England.


Sure, get your pot of money together, find a solicitor (that's what we call these legal people over here), petition to have OpenPandora Ltd declared bankrupt so you can asset strip it. You'll probably walk away with the sum total of a desk, a Macbook and a half finished bottle of vodka. Maybe some Ramen noodles.


This bollocks big-man postulating is not helping anything. Gordon Gekkos you are not.

 

[jus1982b]

oh. hey look. we can petition to FORCE craig into bankruptcy https://www.gov.uk/c...uptcy-petitions

You may not, but this is very real and can be done!

 

[WorldTripping]

**This last exception is the most important. If owners don't treat the LLC as a separate business, a court might decide that the LLC doesn't really exist and find that its owners are really doing business as individuals who are personally liable for their acts.

What the fuck is an LLC ? It ain't no English thing.


Stop thinking your laws apply to other parts of the world.

 

[jus1982b]

and spoon's make people fat the same way guns kill people, gotta love marry ol England

 

[jus1982b]

More or less the same thing...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTD

 

[dooble]

I appreciate the history. Typically when engaging a company for custom or unique parts like the nubs, you do an investigation into the financial health of the company, plans for business continuation, etc. When engaging a CM, the contracts need to be carefully reviewed and understood as to who is responsible to what and all conditions. In my last company we had our own manufacturing team that would work with major CMs to optimize the process for yield. We provided the test that had to be performed to validate good units, usually a functional test, not ICT. I'm not sure who was contractually responsible these or many other items. The board layout, stencil design, choice of solder paste and flux (etc.) can all effect yield on a product on a manufacturing line. There are so many other items that should be considered in manufacturing a product.


I'm not going to point fault as Ed, Craig, or CC. I don't have enough information to make an educated determination of fault.


I've been off the boards for a little bit and this thread has exploded. So what is the real status? Has Craig bailed or is this the same old conjecture? All I know is that I have not received an acknowledgement of my last request from Craig.


doob

It's great if you happen to have the money for your own team of engineers, otherwise, you don't really have that option.


And yes, it's just the same Craig defrauded us conjecture. Neglecting of course that as a Ltd, his company could just declare bankruptcy and he'd be out.

I would not consider what I'm saying as the same as "Craig defrauded us" in any sense. I am saying that blaming CC, or nubs event, etc without more information. And I can't see how anything in the post would be taken as saying "defraud". I apologize if it comes across that way. I admit that one could possibly take what I said as they did not fully understand all the ins and outs of how to deal with manufacturing vendors to maintain a reliable production/supply chain. But missing some details and due diligence items is really far from deliberate fraud.


And yes I agree that they don't have the availability of a team of engineers. All the more for needing a very good engineer and contract lawyer. Again, I know they can't afford those either. This just means more risks. All I was stating was that without more information I could not guess on fault, that is who did not comply with the contract. I do not expect it posted here and am not asking for it. I'm not a lawyer and likely could not interpret it properly.

People who create a company and take people’s money are responsible for these actions. Regardless of anything that occurs there the figure heads of the respective company.

yes, but if they did things properly their limitation is likely to the assets of the company (Limited -Ltd). If they did not meet the legal definition it might be able to go further. The laws in different companies vary and it really is not my area of expertise.


doob

 

[WorldTripping]

More or less the same thing...


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTD

Similar, but not the same.


A UK limited company is *limited* in it's liability to what the *company* owns, assets, cash etc.


You want to strip the assets of Open Pandora Ltd; you would likely get next to nothing in tangible saleable goods.


There is *no* personal liability on behalf of the Directors and their personal assets would never be touched in a bankruptcy.

 

[WorldTripping]

and spoon's make people fat the same way guns kill people, gotta love marry ol England

Fat people with spoons and guns would be a real concern of mine if I worked in an ice-cream shop.

 

[WizardStan]

A UK limited company is *limited* in it's liability to what the *company* owns, assets, cash etc.


You want to strip the assets of Open Pandora Ltd; you would likely get next to nothing in tangible saleable goods.


There is *no* personal liability on behalf of the Directors and their personal assets would never be touched in a bankruptcy.

Yes, that is exactly the same as an LLC for the purposes of the discussion: sue Craig, OPT goes liquid, lawsuit gets a few thousand tops which the lawyer will pocket and then send you the bill for the rest.

 

[Godmil]

1) 700 classic Pre-orders to fulfill +


2) 70 1Ghz to fulfill and


...


Assuming this (may/may not be the case). ED has said it will take 190 new Pandora sales to make the money needed to fulfill the 70 1Ghz orders. Assuming the same rate to clear the 700 pre-orders,...

It's not *quite* as bad as that I think. Firstly the 700 number I believe includes the 70 1Gig preorders, also ED said something along the lines of the 70 1Gig's being effectively paid for by recent sales (which didn't involve any free units going to Craig) and that new free units would start shipping to Craig this month.

 

[gunrock]

oh. hey look. we can petition to FORCE craig into bankruptcy https://www.gov.uk/c...uptcy-petitions

Mate, what is your problem? Ok, you plonked down some cash 4 years ago nothing has turned up, I get it. You hear that there's not much chance of getting your Pandora soon and you can't get your cash back immediately. I get that. But you honestly want to fuck up someone's life (being bankrupt has repercussions even if Craig's assets are safe)? Is that it? You want the satisfaction that you reached out from wherever you're from and fucked up another man's life? For what, a niche piece of plastic and electronics that didn't turn up?


And you wonder why you get called a dick?

 

[elwing]

Firstly the 700 number I believe includes the 70 1Gig preorders

even ED told he's not sure of what is enclosed in theses numbers...


through I think the number are not as bad, as I think 1 pandora sold pay for 1 classic preorder, so we'dd need only 900 or so order to cover the preorder, and not 2000+ as mentioned... wait, that was before the recent drop in price...