Will We Get 4000 Cases Or Just 1000 From The Factory.

[paddy]

I just hope the Pandora design isn't being stolen by the japs for all we know the entire mould,buttons controls and everything else down to the mainboard could be stolen design and they are tops at board creation, i would be worried about this,there could be a copy Pandora out in a matter of months now while we are delayed time and time again by this case company.

Yes i might just be paranoid about this but you really can't trust anyone in business ,it's like say scotland is the only place in the world that makes cakes ,scotland makes over 200 different cakes all top quality and always on the look out for a new recipe ,then comes along an american with a new recipe for a never seen/tasted before super cake ,ohh and scotland are known to steal cake making ideas from just about anyone in the first place ,then the american gets delay after delay ,delays that are just simply odd and not the common practice in scotland ,i wonder what's cooking in the cake factory.


Hehe ok kinda silly but like i say i don't trust anyone and could OPT really do anything about it if the entire design is copied ? mabe OPT put all their eggs in the one company basket (not a good idea) and what i mean from that is this company know everything about the Pandora ,not just the case dam after all they have every part of the Pandora so they can build it piece for piece to test the case.

 

[grahamr]

it's like say scotland is the only place in the world that makes cakes ,scotland makes over 200 different cakes all top quality and always on the look out for a new recipe ,then comes along an american with a new recipe for a never seen/tasted before super cake ,ohh and scotland are known to steal cake making ideas from just about anyone in the first place ,then the american gets delay after delay ,delays that are just simply odd and not the common practice in scotland ,i wonder what's cooking in the cake factory.

I havn't had breakfast - i try to read your post - but to me it looks like this.

 

[aatu]

I see no reason why they would.

Because they're a little behind of schedule and would like to reassure they have things under control?

PS. Next time OPT should try to add extra clauses/definitions to all their contracts: "Penalties for delays"
Not agreeing to them should be regarded as an instant red flag. My former school had a renovation contract with such a clause. In the end they had to pay only 80% of the initial price to the contractor.

 

[jottt]

it's like say scotland is the only place in the world that makes cakes ,scotland makes over 200 different cakes all top quality and always on the look out for a new recipe ,then comes along an american with a new recipe for a never seen/tasted before super cake ,ohh and scotland are known to steal cake making ideas from just about anyone in the first place ,then the american gets delay after delay ,delays that are just simply odd and not the common practice in scotland ,i wonder what's cooking in the cake factory.

I havn't had breakfast - i try to read your post - but to me it looks like this.

Makes more sense now seeing it that way. Rmpf. Now I'd like to have a scottish cake. Or maybe a cake with scotch would be better. (You never know if the secret ingredience in that famous scottish cake is a good amount of minced Haggis...)

Don't forget the

PS. Next time OPT should try to add extra clauses/definitions to all their contracts: "Penalties for delays"
Not agreeing to them should be regarded as an instant red flag. My former school had a renovation contract with such a clause. In the end they had to pay only 80% of the initial price to the contractor.

Been said before quite often: If you are lucky you find a company AT ALL to make your low quantity for a fair price, you can't just set up a contract to your likings. They read it, they say no. It's as easy as that. They don't need you. OP knows it, the moulders know it.
If you have 2.000.000 cases, things look different. There is money to be made and other companies are interested too. Of course now you will accept a stricter contract to get such a deal.

This is the same for your school.

Try to get a painter to paint a single Window in your house.
Now, try to make a contract with him that has a fixed finishing date and a part "paint must stick at least 5 years or else it will cost 50% of the contract and has to be painted again for free." He probably won't sign and watch TV at home instead.

 

[WizardStan]

PS. Next time OPT should try to add extra clauses/definitions to all their contracts: "Penalties for delays"
Not agreeing to them should be regarded as an instant red flag. My former school had a renovation contract with such a clause. In the end they had to pay only 80% of the initial price to the contractor.

Your school's contractor was in the same country as they are, a country which can enforce the contract. I've heard a lot of stories about doing work in China, one of which basically goes "we had a contract, they ignored it, we sued them, it cost us a lot of money, we won, they ignored the verdict, we never got anything, the end"

 

[Monk]

PS. Next time OPT should try to add extra clauses/definitions to all their contracts: "Penalties for delays"
Not agreeing to them should be regarded as an instant red flag. My former school had a renovation contract with such a clause. In the end they had to pay only 80% of the initial price to the contractor.

Look at it this way. OPT could get a contract, perhaps, that reduces the price by 10% per months delay past 4-5 months mold development time. They got a deal in China where they got a 90%* price reduction. So in effect the Chinese company has up to 9 months worth of delay (on top of the 4-5 months "normal manufacturing time") before they run out of discounted-time-delays.

They've had what, about 8 months since they were given the data? So if they deliver any time soon they will be WELL within the kind of period that your clause would have given them if OpenPandora paid the kind of money that allows for that type of clause, and OpenPandora would have spent less than going to a more controllable source.

OpenPandora GOT THE CASES MOLDS MADE CHEAP. VERY CHEAP.

 

[Prometheus]

I just hope the Pandora design isn't being stolen by the japs for all we know the entire mould,buttons controls and everything else down to the mainboard could be stolen design and they are tops at board creation, i would be worried about this,there could be a copy Pandora out in a matter of months now while we are delayed time and time again by this case company.

Pardon my asking, but what have Japanese folks got to do with this? The boards were done in Texas, weren't they?

 

[Monk]

I just hope the Pandora design isn't being stolen by the japs for all we know the entire mould,buttons controls and everything else down to the mainboard could be stolen design and they are tops at board creation, i would be worried about this,there could be a copy Pandora out in a matter of months now while we are delayed time and time again by this case company.

Pardon my asking, but what have Japanese folks got to do with this? The boards were done in Texas, weren't they?

MWeston said that the boards were actually made in China. Months later, Craig has corrected to say they were made "in Asia".

 

[Prometheus]

That still doesn't really answer my curiousity, though (EDIT: I do know that, to clarify ). It's just that I've honestly not heard of the nation of Japan playing a part in this or board-cloning. :blink:

 

[aatu]

@jottt, WizardStan, Monk:

Yes, the enforcing-contract-part is a good point. And a valid point when dealing with Chinese (or foreign in general) companies. But aren't they now on the consensus to transfer future production to EU/US (or was that just chit-chat)?

In Europe there are companies who are willing to make smaller quantities (I think OPT even confirmed this at some point?). Granted, in Europe they cost a little more than in China. But at the moment, we're already 18 months late(*). We lost some of the first-to-market-momentum. Lucky for us we have quite a unique product, so it's not all lost. But all the lost time is also lost business time. And lost customers. But yes, if the cost really is 1 to 10 between China and rest, it's not a hard decision for a small company.

But either way, doesn't stop from trying (getting the clauses, I mean). And it's a good negotiation tactic. When they agree on a deadline, isn't it assumed that's what they're aiming at? So if after that they straightoff decline the penalty clause, wouldn't that raise some flags?


(*) Well, as an afterthought, the first few months weren't even very realistic, so maybe more like 12 months late.

 

[Monk]

@Prometheus I'd love to answer more fully, but it would be pure speculation as this is the first mention of Japan that I've noticed too

@aatu as a general principle, there is no doubt that penalty clauses are a good idea if they are enforceable and we can HOPE that the OpenPandora team have learnt a whole raft of lessons from this project, not limited to but including their experiments with Chinese/international commerce.

I'm not privvy enough to their... bargaining powers or contracts, but I'd hope in future they would strive not to pay the full amount until they have more evidence of actual goods. Part payment as a sign of good faith is one thing, full payment up front is trusting another group who do not trust you (or they would not require full payment up front). Business and trust are uneasy bedfellows, but every now and then you have to gamble a little trust if you're going to see the rewards

 

[WizardStan]

Yes, the enforcing-contract-part is a good point. And a valid point when dealing with Chinese (or foreign in general) companies. But aren't they now on the consensus to transfer future production to EU/US (or was that just chit-chat)?

From what I've understood, they're going to wait out this contract, and when they've finally got the 10000 promised cases, they'll take their moulds as well and give it to a local company. The mould being the expensive part, the cases themselves are probably fairly cheap, and even a local company would not be too much more expensive.

 

[darkborn]

Yes, the enforcing-contract-part is a good point. And a valid point when dealing with Chinese (or foreign in general) companies. But aren't they now on the consensus to transfer future production to EU/US (or was that just chit-chat)?

From what I've understood, they're going to wait out this contract, and when they've finally got the 10000 promised cases, they'll take their moulds as well and give it to a local company. The mould being the expensive part, the cases themselves are probably fairly cheap, and even a local company would not be too much more expensive.

Funny... I thought that I was saying that, but ...nevermind. Peace & love.

 

[WizardStan]

Funny... I thought that I was saying that, but ...nevermind. Peace & love.

Perhaps that's what you meant, but the way you were wording it it sounded like you expected such a second factory to be doing something by now (if not earlier) that would somehow have stopped OPT from falling into this pit of infinite delays. Your examples were always about two things going at the same time: ie, ship half with one company, ship the other half with another. I've been trying to explain how having a second company would not have helped prevent the delay, and you responded by yelling that you don't believe it.
Once they have the moulds, yes, they will be free to use a different company, but getting those moulds has been an 8 month long process and having a second factory on standby wouldn't have helped that in any way.

 

[darkborn]

but getting those moulds has been an 8 month long process

NOPE. It was not just getting those [...that word starting with "m"] for 8 months. It also included cases production/prototyping *2 (or more), painting and gods know what more. "M" production was not bottleneck (for some time).

I've chased and chased those cases but the courier said the factory were unable to give weights or number of boxes last week.

That has NOTHING with "m", but obviously there could be other problems. Peace & love.

 

[SNESFAN]

I love it when people argue with stan he's like a rebuttal ninja

 

[darkborn]

I love it when people argue with stan he's like a rebuttal ninja

Well, you never know.

 

[WizardStan]

we allowed the Chinese guys to tweak the case moulds a bit more

As of April 6th, they still weren't completely totally finished with the mould. August -> March = 8 months.
So getting the moulds has taken over 8 months. Getting them to produce cases from those moulds has taken 1 month. It doesn't included prototyping, the prototyping was done before then; that's what the FDM process was for. It doesn't include painting, painting is part of this last month we've been waiting. The 8 months I said has been from "take our model and make a mass production mould" to "finally, now take that mould and make some mass production cases". If you have an idea that would have reduced that 8 months without costing more money, I (and I'm sure OPT) would love to hear it.

 

[darkborn]

If you have an idea that would have reduced that 8 months without costing more money, I (and I'm sure OPT) would love to hear it.

Actually, I have idea to reduce next __ months:

From what I've understood, they're going to wait out this contract, and when they've finally got the 10000 promised cases, they'll take their moulds as well and give it to a local company. The mould being the expensive part, the cases themselves are probably fairly cheap, and even a local company would not be too much more expensive.

Oh, you said that... or... nevermind, p&l.

 

[Monk]

but getting those moulds has been an 8 month long process

I've chased and chased those cases but the courier said the factory were unable to give weights or number of boxes last week.

That has NOTHING with "m", but obviously there could be other problems. Peace & love.

It was also a fantasy, as it has said been reported that there have been...other issues. Like, the factory was unable to give the cases, as well as their weight. It was nothing but a face-saving stall. Why? The latest story as I understand is is that the cases are not yet "finished" (in this case meaning, probably, painted). There's no practical way to farm out the finishing of the cases to a Plan B company.

As WizardStan has said, OpenPandora did the case prototyping long ago. They didn't have a handy-dandy 3D printer to do it, but there are many YouTube videos and photos of prototype cases, in various shades and degrees of progress. DaveC did the case design, and I presume DaveC updated the design to match the PCB as the board changes through revisions.

I'd love a 3D printer. I think it could be just incredible fun to use!