Testing alternative Layouts that require single-width space. INTL layout vs Big Space, and other key

[comradekingu]

Pyra is super for reasons discussed, and also the logo-button is always super. (Its the windowsbutton if you have a regular keyboard.)

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/5a72c0b1508cc5a09fb3e9c57f85f2fa

The A-Z should be centered on the key, and F markings should be top left (to correspond with where meta is) but it was a bit difficult with the layout-editor.

Edit: To explain why arrangement of comma to space and dot to enter is important.

You start out writing "Ftgcv" for case of argument and then add a comma, a quick stop at "," and " '------' " and you are off typing mostly "hnnnnnnnnn"  before again its time for a break, then you try to conclude with "olp"  before realizing your sentence makes no sense and chose to end it with a dot and enter before beginning anew on the next.

Starting the "Ftgcv,  hnnnnnnnnn,  olp."-tirade again, you have a choice of capitalizing F with either shift on the keyboard, or using the right shoulder.

In a real world scenario you would use space a whole lot more often, so its important to have that central, if not the key next to m, then maybe a shoulder, but that remains to be tested.

What makes arrangements like dvorak and neo more effective than querty, is mostly because they have placed short strings of words that often follow each-other together.

We cant do that, but we can use that same lesson to make sure we dont waste movement or shift focus to the other hand without reason in punctuation.

That is the biggest flaw of the pandora keyboard, because it makes it makes even anglo users suffer. Which brings us onto the missing +4 keys to make it a full keyboard/ international. Visual chaos is third for me.

 

[DAP]

Someone needs to write a really good keymap editor for the Pyra.

 

[DAP]

This:

http://i.imgur.com/sgPlB8Z.jpg

 

[Glyph Reader]

This:

http://i.imgur.com/sgPlB8Z.jpg

I think my eyes melted slightly. 

-Glyph Reader

 

[_wb_]

Let's take a good look at this epic retro keyboard first:

Revised my proposal:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/8870a42bfeae2e2b689a162a7df3fcab

Shift, Ctrl, Alt and Pyra (=Hyper) are the main modifier keys. They are on the shoulder buttons, and they are duplicated on the main keyboard -- let's say their Left version is on the keyboard and Right is the shoulder button, like how it's done on the Pandora. The third shift button (the one on the right on the keyboard) should correspond to some other key, remapped to act as another shift by default.

The Pyra button is corresponds to Hyper because that is a standard modifier key that is not in already use by anything. I used the symbol ★ because I needed something that exists in unicode for that keyboard layout editor, but we could use the actual Pyra logo instead.

To the left of the POWER button there are two more modifier keys: Meta and Super. The user can of course remap them to anything, but by default these are keys that are available to make custom shortcut combinations (and already known by existing software!). In Ubuntu, tapping Alt (START) will show the HUD ("Type your command"), while tapping Super shows the Dash (menu). We could of course make it so that tapping Hyper (PYRA) shows the main menu.

You can think of Meta as AltGr, the Apple Command key, or the Menu key (as used in Windows keyboards). You can think of Super as the Windows key.

I much prefer "Meta" and "Super" as names for those keys though, because they are neutral (not vendor-specific), they have interesting historical roots (see the above picture of a Space-cadet keyboard), and they are Greek words like the word Pyra itself (well, "Meta" and "Hyper" are Greek, "Super" is the Latin word that shares the same Proto-Indo-European root with "Hyper" and even the English word "over" (after two millennia of bastardization)). Also the words "Meta" and "Super" make it more clear than "Windows" and "Menu" that these keys cannot just be used for one specific action, but can also act as a modifier key.

 

[Askarus]

Updated again. This time there are two versions, one with fewer changes and the other a more radical approach.

Version 1

Version 2

The detailed explanation for both can be found here.

I like the one with Esc on Tab.

Really nice one .

 

[rygD]

Some of this is carried over from PMs with comradekingu.  I am starting to think I need to bring more of that into this thread.

_wb_, you kinda lost me at hyper.  I have encountered meta a few different ways. I cannot remember ever coming across anything related to hyper other than when looking at the history of keyboards.  It doesn't matter what you call the modifier, or how it is labeled.  All that matters is people know how to use it to produce the characters they want.

Having said that, the Pyra key should remain as super, which is different than meta, by whatever name you want to call it, as you understand.  It has a different function and should not be changed.  I like a lot of what is happening in this thread, even if some of it seems to be running around in circles, but changing the Pyra key to a primary modifier is a bad thing in my opinion, and would be problematic if applied to how I use my Pandora.  The Pyra key needs to function the same way the Pandora key, the Super key, and the Windows key do.  If you want an additional modifier do not sacrifice the Pyra/super key to get it.  Why would you want to completely change how this key works and is designated compared to a normal keyboard or the Pandora?  Why move super away from where it already exists?  Do we need an additional modifier enough to bring in a hyper key?

Now, if you are simply changing what we internally refer to these keys by, call it whatever you want, but as for how it functions.  I don't know how hyper works, so if it works the same as super in the ways that the Pandora key is used, sure change it and disregard what I said.

This seems to be going from the difficult task of making a keyboard that allows the most functionality for as many people as possible, to the pointless task of seeing how obscure and complicated use of a small keyboard can be made.

Edit:  I am not trying to attack you or your ideas, _wb_, they just seem to be going in a really odd direction.

 

[_wb_]

Updated again. This time there are two versions, one with fewer changes and the other a more radical approach.

Version 1

Version 2

The detailed explanation for both can be found here.

I like the one with Esc on Tab.

Really nice one .

The problem with not having two keys to the right of P and L, is that non-English speakers cannot comfortably remap those keys to the ones they need.

The layout Saber (and nearly everyone else at first) proposes is nice for English, but not so nice for non-English.

Keeping P+2 (at least P+1) and L+2 (and preferably also M+2) available for remapping is really quite important.

Examples of keyboard layouts that use P+1 and L+2:

German:

Danish:

Polish:

Also Norwegian, Swedish, Finnish, Swiss, Icelandic, Italian, Portuguese/Brazil, Spanish,Romanian.

Examples of keyboard layouts that use P+2 and L+2:

Estonian:

Turkish:

Russian:

Russian (phonetic) uses only P+2:

Examples of layouts that use P+2 and L+3:

Slovene:

Hungarian:

Dvorak uses L+1 and M+3 for its letters, and Colemac uses L+1, Neo uses P+2 and L+1. Of course those require heavy remapping anyway.

Also it is better to keep the number row free of third-level modifiers, because layouts like French and Czech/Slovak use shift for numbers, primary key for accented letters, and they could use the third-level modifier to get back !@#$%^&*(). French also needs P+1 and L+1.

(Vietnamese uses the number row for accented letters and dead key diacritics, and they use AltGr for numbers and Shift+AltGr for symbols).

TL;DR : Not everyone wants to type only English. For non-English, it is crucial to have Q and A as the left-most key of their row, so there is enough room at the right to map all the keys of extended QWERT* keyboards.

 

[_wb_]

Some of this is carried over from PMs with comradekingu.  I am starting to think I need to bring more of that into this thread.

_wb_, you kinda lost me at hyper.  I have encountered meta a few different ways. I cannot remember ever coming across anything related to hyper other than when looking at the history of keyboards.  It doesn't matter what you call the modifier, or how it is labeled.  All that matters is people know how to use it to produce the characters they want.

Having said that, the Pyra key should remain as super, which is different than meta, by whatever name you want to call it, as you understand.  It has a different function and should not be changed.  I like a lot of what is happening in this thread, even if some of it seems to be running around in circles, but changing the Pyra key to a primary modifier is a bad thing in my opinion, and would be problematic if applied to how I use my Pandora.  The Pyra key needs to function the same way the Pandora key, the Super key, and the Windows key do.  If you want an additional modifier do not sacrifice the Pyra/super key to get it.  Why would you want to completely change how this key works and is designated compared to a normal keyboard or the Pandora?  Why move super away from where it already exists?  Do we need an additional modifier enough to bring in a hyper key?

Now, if you are simply changing what we internally refer to these keys by, call it whatever you want, but as for how it functions.  I don't know how hyper works, so if it works the same as super in the ways that the Pandora key is used, sure change it and disregard what I said.

This seems to be going from the difficult task of making a keyboard that allows the most functionality for as many people as possible, to the pointless task of seeing how obscure and complicated use of a small keyboard can be made.

Edit:  I am not trying to attack you or your ideas, _wb_, they just seem to be going in a really odd direction.

Hyper is exactly like Super or Meta, but it has the advantage of being obscure, which means it is available/unused. Of course it does not need to be labeled as Hyper, just "PYRA" will do. The point is that you can still define shortcuts like Super+F1 or Super+Letter, which would be impossible if the Pyra modifier would already be Super internally.

Now whether or not the PYRA button below Select and Start has to be the same thing as the Pyra modifier on the shoulder button, that's a different question. That does not have to be the case. We could make that Pyra button correspond to Super. But then it would be best to use another name for the Pyra modifier (maybe Fn or Sym). There has to be a Pyra modifier key somewhere on the keyboard though, not just on the shoulder button. We could waste a key on the main keyboard block to it (which would be rarely used because the shoulder button is more efficient), or we could put it on one of those keys to the left of POWER. I think it makes most sense to put it where Ctrl and Alt already are, since it is also a modifier.

Regardless of what that PYRA button below START and SELECT maps to, we can make sure that in the default desktop environment, the main menu is opened when you press and release the button (and still use it as a modifier key if you chord it with another key).

 

[comradekingu]

Why is meta not obscure enough, and what is it used for? Having AltGr means you already get third level stuff. We dont want to reinvent stuff, we want to tie into what is known.

Is it impossible to supply custom modifications to AltGR+number?

So as to not confuse french people, we should leave everyone else guessing? It would be ok if we had a whole number row so they could just get their regional mappings, but we need to have everything there.

Otherwise you run into the situation when you are visually looking for something, and you can only narrow it down to _the whole keyboard_ This has annoyed me many-a-time on the pandora.

I dont want to learn it, because no sensible layout will ever have it.

With US layout defaults on number row, if you provide countless other places for things to be, a lot of people will look there thinking they already know its not on the shift+numbers because they know those, and start to test AltGR combos, because they arent marked. If they arent registering, you make people angry because they 'know how to do it'

The best solution i see is to provide sensible US shift+ defaults, which are roughly the same as other places, and then contain the chaos that is the rest, to the AltGR+ numbers

Then it is all in plain view for beginner and pro to see.

Im having trouble seeing the implications, because i so intrinsically think seeing FN-type behaviour on a keyboard always means someone made bad choices on limited space.

I will resist change a while longer and have a look at it, but it looked good, albeit with a hint of possible satire.

 

[_wb_]

OK, let's call the Fn/AltGr/Pyra/whatever modifier "Meta" again. And let's make the Pyra button below START and SELECT map to Super again, like rygD requested.

I then put the non-shoulder button Meta to the left of POWER, together with a generic Menu button:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/86999ee32ada089eec2f91a3b5361f7c

@comradekingu: I still think it's a bad idea to have both AltGr and Meta, using one for the punctuations (whether they are on the number row or at the letter rows is another matter) and the other for the F-keys. It is confusing and unnecessary to have two competing third-level modifiers, and it brings the total number of "important" modifier keys to five, which is one more than the number of shoulder buttons available for efficient chording (shift, ctrl, alt, meta, altGr).

In my layout, AltGr is not available by default, but of course everyone is free to map one of the redundant shift keys to AltGr if they want to. I don't think it's something we need by default though.

 

[Saber]

Updated again. This time there are two versions, one with fewer changes and the other a more radical approach.

Version 1

Version 2

The detailed explanation for both can be found here.

I like the one with Esc on Tab.

Really nice one .

The problem with not having two keys to the right of P and L, is that non-English speakers cannot comfortably remap those keys to the ones they need.

The layout Saber (and nearly everyone else at first) proposes is nice for English, but not so nice for non-English.

Keeping P+2 (at least P+1) and L+2 (and preferably also M+2) available for remapping is really quite important.

I understand what you're saying here but the drawback is the letters, which should always be the priority input, are shifted over one to fit less important symbols on the far right. If we hold our Pyra's by cuppng our hands evenly on both sides of the device, then the outer keys to the edges give some comfort spacing, but if we go with the P+2/L+2 arrangement, we lose that "zone" on the left completely and add +1 more of it on the right side. It's a mobile device naturally held by both hands so I don't think it's best to make it uneven for a small grouping of symbols when space is so limited as it is. :mellow:

 

[comradekingu]

Noticing a variation over the theme "we" that means english people. For half the people, the +4 _is_ the letters. And for those people the layout is off the keyboard, thats a bigger concern than not being centered. Its not like the shift enter and tab isnt important, and that is very much on either side in any event.

Having trouble comprehending today, but i understand meta to be a second layer modifier. Basically free to do anything, besides the QWERTY-row, which is F-keys.

Its really having an F-row and no actual buttons for it thats the non good idea. Taking away functionality instead of adding complexion doenst make it any less ideal.

 

[bzar]

Saber: So I guess the question is which is more important: more easily (mostly unaltered) mapped alternative layouts or more comfort when using the default layout.

 

[Saber]

Noticing a variation over the theme "we" that means english people. For half the people, the +4 _is_ the letters. And for those people the layout is off the keyboard, thats a bigger concern than not being centered. Its not like the shift enter and tab isnt important, and that is very much on either side in any event.


Having trouble comprehending today, but i understand meta to be a second layer modifier. Basically free to do anything, besides the QWERTY-row, which is F-keys.


Its really having an F-row and no actual buttons for it thats the non good idea. Taking away functionality instead of adding complexion doenst make it any less ideal.

I don't think we are talking about half the people who'd buy an Pyra, but you'd still need to remap keys any way it's done.

Saber: So I guess the question is which is more important: more easily (mostly unaltered) mapped alternative layouts or more comfort when using the default layout.

It is a thumb keyboard and I believe Q-P, A-L, and Z-M will always be the most important over any local alphas like Eth or C-Cedilla. Really, just look at all the work put into the P+2/L+2 layouts proposed and where they've had to move the Tab and all the other keys to fit this unaltered mapping found on these regional full-size keyboards.

The Question is is it worth it to have the Fn/Meta/Sym key on the shoulder button, losing the keyboard's Left Shift, shuffling the Escape key anywhere it can go, to fit some local lettering where they should be? Is what's gained worth what's lost?

 

[rygD]

OK, let's call the Fn/AltGr/Pyra/whatever modifier "Meta" again. And let's make the Pyra button below START and SELECT map to Super again, like rygD requested.  
I then put the non-shoulder button Meta to the left of POWER, together with a generic Menu button:

http://www.keyboard-...c2f91a3b5361f7c

Oh no, now it is a biohazard. 

Kidding. Keep it a modifier, that is fine.  I often use super for other purposes, such as super+tab to switch desktops/workspaces.  As long as it brings up the menu and can function similarly to how it does on the Pandora I am fine with how it is handled behind the scenes.  It might make things a bit more difficult when customising things by the user. I know I don't own a USB keyboard with a hyper key, so that makes anything using it potentially inaccessible if not using the Pyra's keyboard and buttons without additional steps (which I currently don't know).

 

[_wb_]

I'm not sure that centering really adds any comfort at all. On a regular keyboard, your hands are centered around F and J, which means the actual center is between G and H. In Saber's layout the center is on G while in my/comradekingu's layout, the center is on H. Both are non-centered by half a key.

But even if you insist that G is supposed to be the center and not B like on a normal keyboard (which is impossible in our layout since the row containing B has an even number of keys), then I don't think it makes much of a difference. It is a thumb keyboard, not a finger keyboard. The center is not particularly better than the edges. In fact, the center is probably worse than the edges. Compare the dpad and action buttons with the START/SELECT/PYRA buttons in case you have doubts about that.

Noticing a variation over the theme "we" that means english people. For half the people, the +4 _is_ the letters. And for those people the layout is off the keyboard, thats a bigger concern than not being centered. Its not like the shift enter and tab isnt important, and that is very much on either side in any event.

Having trouble comprehending today, but i understand meta to be a second layer modifier. Basically free to do anything, besides the QWERTY-row, which is F-keys.

Its really having an F-row and no actual buttons for it thats the non good idea. Taking away functionality instead of adding complexion doenst make it any less ideal.

 I don't think we are talking about half the people who'd buy an Pyra, but you'd still need to remap keys any way it's done.

It's hard to predict customer demographics, especially since the keyboard layout may actually have an influence on it. But out of all European countries, the UK is the only one that does not use those keys to the right of P and L. It could be that over half of the sales will be in the UK, Australia and USA, but it's hard to predict such things. I think at least a significant part of the Pyra customers will be from Germany, France, Scandinavia, Poland and other eastern European countries, Portugal, Spain and Italy.

Saber: So I guess the question is which is more important: more easily (mostly unaltered) mapped alternative layouts or more comfort when using the default layout.

It is a thumb keyboard and I believe Q-P, A-L, and Z-M will always be the most important over any local alphas like Eth or C-Cedilla. Really, just look at all the work put into the P+2/L+2 layouts proposed and where they've had to move the Tab and all the other keys to fit this unaltered mapping found on these regional full-size keyboards.

I suggest you ask a German which key is most important, Ü or Q

The Question is is it worth it to have the Fn/Meta/Sym key on the shoulder button, losing the keyboard's Left Shift, shuffling the Escape key anywhere it can go, to fit some local lettering where they should be? Is what's gained worth what's lost?

In my proposal we don't lose any Shift, in fact there are three Shifts in my proposal.I'm not sure about the Escape key -- I don't want to make it too easily pressed accidentally, so it either has to go to the very top, or behind Meta.

OK, let's call the Fn/AltGr/Pyra/whatever modifier "Meta" again. And let's make the Pyra button below START and SELECT map to Super again, like rygD requested.  

I then put the non-shoulder button Meta to the left of POWER, together with a generic Menu button:

http://www.keyboard-...c2f91a3b5361f7c

Oh no, now it is a biohazard.  Kidding. Keep it a modifier, that is fine.  I often use super for other purposes, such as super+tab to switch desktops/workspaces.  As long as it brings up the menu and can function similarly to how it does on the Pandora I am fine with how it is handled behind the scenes.  It might make things a bit more difficult when customising things by the user. I know I don't own a USB keyboard with a hyper key, so that makes anything using it potentially inaccessible if not using the Pyra's keyboard and buttons without additional steps (which I currently don't know).

The biohazard symbol is just a placeholder for the actual Pyra logo
It's fine that Meta is not available on a normal keyboard, because you don't need it: normal keyboards have dedicated keys for F1-F12 and all the punctuation symbols etc that we have to put behind Meta.

I just noticed that I put wifi toggle on Meta+Meta, that does not make sense. Fixed it by making that key a dedicated Meta key and putting the wifi toggle on meta-menu and the 3G toggle on shift-meta-menu:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/e95ecc9a55ed45adfb4a5c2cae8a889b

 

[Saber]

I'm not sure that centering really adds any comfort at all. On a regular keyboard, your hands are centered around F and J, which means the actual center is between G and H. In Saber's layout the center is on G while in my/comradekingu's layout, the center is on H. Both are non-centered by half a key.


But even if you insist that G is supposed to be the center and not B like on a normal keyboard (which is impossible in our layout since the row containing B has an even number of keys), then I don't think it makes much of a difference. It is a thumb keyboard, not a finger keyboard. The center is not particularly better than the edges. In fact, the center is probably worse than the edges. Compare the dpad and action buttons with the START/SELECT/PYRA buttons in case you have doubts about that.

I don't insist or seek to force compliance with what we're talking about. I do sympathize with our non-English members here but I also think remapping, for the handful who need to, a few keys to the German umlauts and using the Compose key is more than a fair compromise.

It just doesn't sit well to use a hardware key all the way up top(or to rely on a shoulder button) for the main modifier Fn/Sym/Meta. I do like how you have F1-F12 though.

 

[rygD]

The biohazard symbol is just a placeholder for the actual Pyra logo

I would love the radiation symbol on one of the keys.  Maybe I can make one.  

Or, maybe we can split the space bar, put the radiation symbol on half, and then we have all the keys available.  Then, once we have Pyras in our hands, we can work on creating the non-English keyboard layout.  I still support doing it now, but as long as the keys are available perhaps something can be done later if a consensus isn't reached.

 

[bzar]

Saber: For fun, try pressing a five-key combo every time you want to type "f" or "c" (six for caps) in english. Those letters are about the same frequency in english as ä is in finnish. (EDIT: try this on a thumb keyboard for added effect)

Compose key is only good for really rare cases, like when you're typing a quote in foreign language. It's not a solution for anyone typing in the language for more than a sentence or two at a time.

Some want alternate layouts to fix this. I'll probably map some key as an extra modifier like hyper or try to find some suitable unmapped combinations from the existing modifiers.