Right, let's start recovering this?

[levi]

Thanks for yet another informative and open news post.


With regards to a discounted upgrade, it might help push people into moving now rather than waiting and seeing. From a moralistic point of view, you have held onto people's money for a long time now, so it could be seen as fair to compensate them for a loss of interest (not that you'd get much of that these days). I guess it would mean you made a small loss overall for those orders, but it would reduce your debt and the number of people waiting (and sometimes moaning) and give you some extra cash to help pay bills today. Sounds like a good deal to me.

 

[ghostpatch]

Ok 299$ for a CC pandora. I am pretty sure you can sell them, six times. This are 8% of the money needed. This is a start. So its around 88 pandoras you need to sell to get the 20K € back. There are enough parts from CC left to build 700 pandoras. So you can try to build and sell 88 pandoras for 300$ in the next weeks. Sounds hard but possible.

I think the 700 is the number of OMAP3530 processors left - not assabled PCBs. That means you need money to prduce them which is not there

Craig, you unilaterally introduced a price premium for 1Ghz units, I wasn't happy about that. You're well within your rights to have done this, but I don't think you accounted for the animosity among the old preorders that this may cause.

I paid for the upgrade a month ago now, and expected to receive it within a couple of weeks, that situation has changed and that is why I have already asked for a refund, which while I understand will compound the situation, I believe is the only way to proceed.


If you were thinking about discounts for the loyalty of your old preorders, rather than saying every one of us costs you money (because of your losses), then maybe you wouldn't have had so many cancellations and refunds. You should have thought about this originally. We have been, and are, a very understanding customer base, but your lack of communication is abysmal. You may have promised to give the kickstarter 110%, but haven't you done the same for the Pandora?


I don't want you to go bust, nor do any of us, but really, you could have handled many of these situations a lot better. While I admire that you still are carrying on, you seem to not account for the loyalty of some of your long-suffering customers, and then suddenly expect some more understanding.


We're not happy. So please, make your mind up about things quickly. If you want to offer discounts to old preorders to upgrade to 1Ghz units then great, please give me partially my upgrade fee back, give me a realistic date of delivery, and I'll consider it. I have had enough of waiting.


Thank you.

If I didn't miss something the reason why the flow of 1GHz units stoped was the massive cancelation which means you cancelled after that. Plz correct me if I'm wrong but in that case its not Craigs fault because he had to refund them! You can't blame him for not having a buffer for about 100 units, which is a least 30.000$


Edit: yeah! 30k not 300k ups, where did that 0 come from? ha ha

 

[kasp]

While I can see why you are offering a discount for the upgrade that is a complete slap in the face to the people who currently are waiting for their 1 Ghz. Not only are people getting it before them but they are paying less to receive it first.


So if you have a partial refund to people (when you have the cash) I am sure they won't get offended. At least with the initial pre orders people had to pay more to jump the queue, now you are suggesting they have to pay less.

 

[Timstertoo]

more like $30.000,- (100*300)


Moot point, Stardroid corrected himself ^^

 

[THB]

While I can see why you are offering a discount for the upgrade that is a complete slap in the face to the people who currently are waiting for their 1 Ghz. Not only are people getting it before them but they are paying less to receive it first.

Some of these people have been waiting almost four years while OP have been selling to other people who ordered later. I dont think there is a harder slap in the face than that.

 

[ghostpatch]

because those people financed the old preorders and are still financing them. The alternative (preorder money lost + no Pandora) was worse.

 

[hedwards]

I agree with the posts above about being interested in a cheaper 1GHz upgrade option. $200 might be good, since that is the price difference between the current 600MHz and 1GHz models after all ($700 - $500 == $200). In addition, this implicitly removes an old order from the queue just like a new 1GHz order would.

The problem with that is that many people, such as myself, are getting our units at a loss to the OPT. I paid substantially less than $500 for mine because I bought mine on like the 6th or so day of the original preorders. So, I would be paying about $500 for a 1ghz unit. Which would be a complete no brainer. But, not likely to be financially viable for the project.

 

[kasp]

While I can see why you are offering a discount for the upgrade that is a complete slap in the face to the people who currently are waiting for their 1 Ghz. Not only are people getting it before them but they are paying less to receive it first.

Some of these people have been waiting almost four years while OP have been selling to other people who ordered later. I dont think there is a harder slap in the face than that.

So lets use my scenario as an example I have been waiting the long wait I think around 3 years.When the 1 Ghz was offered I paid the premium to be one of the first batch of 1 Ghz models. Only to find out that people can get it cheaper and quicker than I did.


Don't forget the community was not happy about the premium Pandora but hey at the end of the day they got a discounted price so people were willing to cop that since there was still a benefit of them preordering. People like myself paid a premium price to get our units first only to be put at the end of a queue that is unknown how long it will take. So price and delivery we have been shafted.


I don't have a problem with them reducing the price to drum up business but the people who paid a premium to get their unit first and are still waiting should also benefit from this reduced price. After all they will be receiving the unit last.


Also just think what would happen if they did offer the 1 GHz version for a cheaper price. Why wouldn't everyone currently waiting just get a refund and purchase the unit again? After all you would receive your unit cheaper and quicker that way. Hell it is even tempting to do it now knowing we can just purchase a unit straight from ED right now for the exact same price. Imagine if the price was reduced the people who ordered are already at a disadvantage keeping their orders with Craig. Why would you want to increase that disadvantage and expect people to put up with that?

 

[vcoleiro1]

I thought the investment cash that was sought and gotten last year?, was to clear all this shit up , get production happening in Germany and send out all the pre-orders back logged . I have to ask, if that cash wasn't sufficient to do this, why didn't you seek the correct amount at the time to do so. This fighting fires approach isn't working, it's been going on to long. Surely Craig and ED you must see that by now.


Simply put.


Get some investment which is going to clear this mess up(all the pre-orders) once and for all and give you enough to move forward. Even if this means a KS (although I can imagine the hesitation and reasons why not to do this.) . Travel to Silicon valley and get VC or angel funding , sell a stake in the company or get more funding as you did last time - do what you have to get investment and the show on the road, right and proper.

 

[ghostpatch]

The money for the first run in Germany came from investors. As far as I know, they didn't get any money from CC

 

[vcoleiro1]

^^ Huh, not sure what your trying to say there. I know the money came from investors and not CC. I made no mention of CC in my my post

 

[TrashyMG]

I don't recall hearing that the Investors were to pay for pre-orders to ship out, it was just to front the initial costs of moving production to Germany.. And had nothing to do with what was going on in Craig's world.


I could be wrong..

 

[the_marshal]

I agree about the cheaper upgrade price for preorder. The upgrade price is currently very steep. If people that preordered could upgrade for 200$, i thing they would be more likely to do so. Then again, they would expect they Pandora quickly.


I don't know how much Craig pays for the 1ghz unit and if charging a 200$ for upgrade is enough. If it is enough to cover the cost, I think you should consider it. I think the years old preorder is something that need to be taken care of, so we can move on.

 

[vcoleiro1]

I don't recall hearing that the Investors were to pay for pre-orders to ship out, it was just to front the initial costs of moving production to Germany.. And had nothing to do with what was going on in Craig's world.


I could be wrong..

That's not the point really, moving forward, we should stop trying to fight fires and just seek the funding/investment required to clear the pre-orders and also have enough to move forward.


Having been sent the Business plan for that round of investment, I could answer your questions directly, but I feel I received that plan in confidence. Needless to say though, as per my comment above, at this point we need to look forward and do what needs to be done.

 

[FuzzySocks]

The people that paid the premium to get the test batch of 1Ghz models should get theirs before any discounted upgrade, that's what the premium was for. Now that the production process has been refined the cost per 1Ghz should start to come down. I'd be willing to upgrade my October 1st, 2008 order for about $200 if that's about what it costs to produce now. That way you get to break even and clear one more old preorder from the queue.


I'm not going to pay until the existing 1Ghz orders are satisfied though. I do appreciate the better communication, but until things are sorted out I'll stick with what I have.

 

[MaxNormal]

I thought the investment cash that was sought and gotten last year?, was to clear all this shit up , get production happening in Germany and send out all the pre-orders back logged . I have to ask, if that cash wasn't sufficient to do this, why didn't you seek the correct amount at the time to do so. This fighting fires approach isn't working, it's been going on to long. Surely Craig and ED you must see that by now.

I assure you as an investor that we did not put our hands up to take on the losses of Openpandora UK. Ed created a business plan that we all (investors) agreed to, and part of that plan is funding units for the outstanding pre-orders (including the ones from openpandora UK) through sales of new units. That plan has been working very well - at least until the 1 GHZ units came along.


If you want a 1 GHZ unit right now, the best way to get one is going here: http://www.dragonbox.de/en/main-consoles-and-upgrades/76-pandora-1ghz.html or here: http://ithic.com/en/48-o.html (if you're in the USA).


If you've already upgraded through Craig then unfortunately you'll have to wait until this mess is sorted out. Any sales of pandoras (especially 1GHZ models) in the above two shops are directly funding fixing the problem for everybody.

 

[vcoleiro1]

I wasn't real clear on what the business plan actually said, it wasn't spelled out that clearly (especially if you read the goals section in the plan), but thats just me. Thats why I posted - as you quoted - that as a question. Basically if it didn't include the money required to clear pre-orders, it should have, that is what I was trying to say in that point.


But the point is, you can't change the past. The only thing we can do now is move forward. And instead of trying to fight spot fires to keep the business afloat. I think it's clear that whats needed is investment that will clear the pre-orders and give enough breading space to carry on. Whether this means seeking VC, Angel funding or selling part of the business - it needs to be addressed.

 

[Awakening]

I ordered a batch 1 unit quite some time ago. Then I payed for a 1GHz upgrade. I was hoping to have it by now, and it was quite expensive.

One solution I see to this is:


1. ED get a bunch of 1GHz units produced for Craig


2. Craig sell half of them


3. Craig use that money to buy all these 1GHz from ED


4. Craig send half of the units to the new 1GHz customers


5. Craig send the other half to 1GHz preorders


6. Do the same with batch 1 preorders


I hope ED have some 1GHz Pandoras right now or incomming that Craig can do this with.

not possible! explanation:

Some quick additions from me:
The issue with these refunds really hit at a bad time. I've got no problems sending Craig units before he pays them - the issue is: Thanks to these refunds he didn't even have enough left to send me the money for the first 70 units I sent him.


If I sent more units to him, I would've run into financing issues myself - and in this case, I would be personally liable for that with everything I own in my life (try to explain the government you send a company more Pandoras even though it hasn't even paid the last bill...)


I'm currently gathering money to be able to pay the next big bill myself: 140K EUR is needed to start with the next 1000 Pandoras. It's exactly that time, so I didn't have money left to send more units to Craig.

and

I'm not sure yet how exactly we'll work it out and when I'll be able to send 1GHz units to Craigs customers yet. I need to recalculate, as these 20K EUR are now missing in my planning, and that's quite a lot of money.
I need to be able to pay the next big GC bill in October, so I need to check first how many of those 1GHz units I need to sell to new customers to be able to get enough money before I know how many I can spare.


The bad thing is that not only those 20K are lost for me - potential customers also are lost, since they paid to Craig already and didn't get their unit yet.


These could order from me right now, but I'm sure they wouldn't want to pay twice.


So yes, I WILL help you all as good as I can, but I was really depending on that money for a smooth ride and that's a bit of a letdown for me.


I'm not in a bad financial situation right, don't worry, but I cannot send out free 1GHz units until I made at least those 20K back.

My idea is simply that Craig sells units and pays ED before he sends them to craig. That is not impossible. If ED have them in stock they don't have to be preorders. So they can be promised to be delivered to new customers within a short time.

 

[ibisum]

EDIT: Rage removed.


Craig, do what you think you need to do, in order to survive. I hope you don't go to jail for committing mail fraud (accepting orders you have no means or way to deliver == fraud).

 

[bismuthdrummer]

I thought you had some good points, torpor.


Anyway I must be frank and admit I didn't realize the difference between the two shops' handling of the finances... my impression was that from the Rebirth onward their business plans for all this were structured the same. Sorry to see I was ignorant in my assumption.


Regardless, let's get this done. Having all the facts lends to community understanding and hopefully support.


Going a little further with kasp's points, I'll just say let's keep the original preorderers near the front of the line (I am not one). If I may, I'd suggest having the precedence go as follows:


1. Original preorderer, full price 1 GHz upgrade


2. Original preorderer, reduced price 1 GHz upgrade


3. Full price 1 GHz upgrade / Full 1 GHz purchase


4. Reduced price 1 GHz upgrade


#2 and #4 only being applicable if you do the price reduction. (And yeah I agree you shouldn't do #4, only #2.) After that you go to the preorder backlog, of course. This assumes such a distribution is manageable, I don't know enough to say whether it is. This is just a suggestion, shoot it down at your leisure.


EDIT: Realized my priority list was stoopid. Better now, I think. :rolleyes: