Pandora Keyboard Layout

[Yrx]

All I really care about is that the period and comma are on the face. I wouldn't be able to deal with them being secondary. Especially if I end up using Pandora for notes for class, or anything like that. Pretty much anything that requires typing would be easier with those on the face.

 

[MilanC]

QUOTE
All I really care about is that the period and comma are on the face. I wouldn't be able to deal with them being secondary. Especially if I end up using Pandora for notes for class, or anything like that. Pretty much anything that requires typing would be easier with those on the face.

Erm... look at your desktop/laptop keyboard. Many important punctuation marks are secondary: shift+something.



Erm... I just thought about something...
ctrl-alt-fX ( X =something between 1 and 7; leave out ctrl if you're not in X11) is very important to anyone who uses CLI in linux... it's doable on Kagato's layouts (ctrl and alt on shoulder buttons, fn+X for your thumbs), but NEAR IMPOSSIBLE with Cosurgi's layouts: you'd have to press 4 keys at the same time on the front, and I don't think it would be anywhere near easy to do when handheld...

 

[benjiro]

Here's another idea i was just thinking about:

The basic idea is to allow the maximum of usability while thumb typing correct? Yet, i get the feeling to many of the suggestions are based on the idea of a standard keyboard. In other words, you have more then 2 thumbs/fingers you use.

So any function keys like CTRL, ALT, ALT-GR, SHIFT etc, are all keys that by definition require 2 actions on the thumb layout.

Please! read this text below multiple times, because it may sound complicated, but its rather simple in operational terms...

So far it's not so strange, all it's lacking are all the keys that require dual function.

The trick comes from the Multi Function on the L & R buttons:

----------
Action: Press & Release L ( aka single click - OnKeyRelease set $tmpshift = true ).
What does it do? Toggles Shift Mode for the following one! character.
Expected result: Type any letter, and it will be uppercased, and the system goes back! to unshift mode.
Why this way? The most used reason for capital letters are the start of sentences. There is no reason for it to act like a capslock, so after a letter is pressed ( and returned a cap letter ), or any other system key ( returns the system key, and ignores the result for system keys, and it goes back to normal.
----------
Action: Press & Hold L ( aka OnKeyDown set $tmpFn = true )
What does it do? Toggles Fn ( Function ).
Expected result: Holding the L down will result in the secondary keyboard layout ( The Blue used on most layouts ) to be accessible.
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Action: Press & Release R ( aka single click ).
What does it do? Toggles Ctrl mode
Expected result: Acts the same as the single mode shift, but for CTRL. Aka, allowing for ctrl+c
----------
Action: Press & Hold R.
What does it do? Toggles Alt mode
Expected result: Acts the same as the single mode shift, but for ALT. Aka, allowing for alt+f ( Open File Menu or whatever )
----------
Action: Press & Hold L & R
What does it do? Tongles CTRL + ALT mode
Expected result: Acts the same as single mode shift, but for CTRL+ALT.
---------

The basic idear of this layout is to eliminate the double thumb press for any function ( Ctrl, Alt, Shift, FN ), and decrease the amount of double keypress's needed in the known layouts for populare keys ( note: point, comma, and whatever people find more interesting. There is still two keys free in the above layout, three if you move enter to the X button like squirrel's example ).

In theory with this layout, you need to have a 25% or more speed increase in any actions that require the keyboard.

I hope this is understandable?

The mouse, now thats a other mater, and for that i refer to Cosurgi's mouse toggle idea ( layout 3 ). Or map the left, middle and right mouse button the the remaining [A] [Y] . In normale desktop usage, you probably better off with the touchscreen for any mouse like operation, then the "mouse move - mouse cursor". The only reason you may want the L & R to be left & right mouse buttons is if you are playing x86 based games ( first person shooters ). Almost all the other systems are console based, and use the AYBX keys.

 

[beljam]

The basic idea is to allow the maximum of usability while thumb typing correct? Yet, i get the feeling to many of the suggestions are based on the idea of a standard keyboard. In other words, you have more then 2 thumbs/fingers you use.

...

Action: Press & Hold L & R
What does it do? Tongles CTRL + ALT mode
Expected result: Acts the same as single mode shift, but for CTRL+ALT.

...

The basic idear of this layout is to eliminate the double thumb press for any function ( Ctrl, Alt, Shift, FN ), and decrease the amount of double keypress's needed in the known layouts for populare keys ( note: point, comma, and whatever people find more interesting. There is still two keys free in the above layout, three if you move enter to the X button like squirrel's example ).

In theory with this layout, you need to have a 25% or more speed increase in any actions that require the keyboard.

Since just a few posts above you, MilanC expressed need to use Ctrl+Alt with a function key, how would that work with this layout? Once you hold both shoulders to get Ctrl+Alt, you have no way to access the Function keys. My own concern would be how you get a Cap Lock on this keyboard?

Also, not criticizing at all but curious, where you get a 25% speed increase in any keyboard actions? The majority of things I do on a keyboard only require Shift. Ctrl, for editing, and Fn, in the case of a thumb board, will also be useful, minor compared to the general letter buttons. Your shift is really no different from a regular StickyKey setup, and the others would only see occasional use (again, compared to the standard letter keys), so I don't see how you can get that kind of gain.

jam

 

[benjiro]

Since just a few posts above you, MilanC expressed need to use Ctrl+Alt with a function key, how would that work with this layout? Once you hold both shoulders to get Ctrl+Alt, you have no way to access the Function keys. My own concern would be how you get a Cap Lock on this keyboard?

Also, not criticizing at all but curious, where you get a 25% speed increase in any keyboard actions? The majority of things I do on a keyboard only require Shift. Ctrl, for editing, and Fn, in the case of a thumb board, will also be useful, minor compared to the general letter buttons. Your shift is really no different from a regular StickyKey setup, and the others would only see occasional use (again, compared to the standard letter keys), so I don't see how you can get that kind of gain.

jam

- Point, comma are dedicated keys. So you don't need to double thumb type for standard sentence writing.
- Shift is split from the thumb keys. In other words, instances where you normally start a sentence, etc, you also don't need to performer thumb key writing twice. The reason why the shift act as a StickyKey, and not a capslock is because you are going to type 90% of the time, single uppercase characters ( unless you like to yell a lot in chat boxes ).

- Any instance where you use CTRL, ALT, Fn, you can dual perform those action.

- 2 or 3 keys are unassigned in this layout, in other words, popular keys ( that people use often ) can be assigned to those.

Now, regarding ctrl + alt + Fx, this is going to be a problem in any keyboard layout that has been proposed. Lets face it, we are talking about a stripped down keyboard that you are going to be using with 2 thumbs.

The most simple approach, solution? Add a 6th's L / R button option:

Single Click L, Single Click R, Hold L, Hold R, Hold L & R. Well, there is one combination left: Single click L & R at the same time and any key from the alternative FN layout can be used as ctrl + alt + Fn ( F1 ... F9, !, @, ... ).

The basic idea is, keep the keyboard for typing! And use special conditions in combination with the L & R.

This is not a full featured layout, but the reason i placed this online, is to give people a idea for a alternative that does not need double or tipple thumb keypress's in combination with whatever letter they need. If somebody can use this idea to create a even more feature perfect keyboard, by all means, go right ahead.



It may sound silly, but i have been looking at it from the perspective of text writing, linux shell access, and vi. The 25% was based on my possible workload. Ofcourse, its almost impossible to time / workout how much speed increase people will have, because they will use different programs... For me, if those unassigned keys hold ( $ ), ( - ), ( | ), or ( * ) i can tell you, that will increase my workspeed ( thats why i left them unassigned, and user assignable ).

Somebody else may look at it from a different perspective, and find this idea / layout totally unusable, so be it. At leased its out in the open

 

[davecuk]

Pandora logo and Kagato layout looks best to me.

 

[AireTamStorm]

As the poll results suggests, there are two factions, the Ctl Alt Faction and the Comma Period Faction, both of similar support, fighting over the two keys on the bottom left.

Alot of the suggestions regarding leaving modifiers on the game controls have some sense behind them, but somehow I think we need to have Ctl, Alt, Comma and Period all on the keyboard, perhaps all four on those two bottom right keys.

 

[CoMiKe]

Sorry for off-topic, but this is rather curious.

A qwerty keyboard that can be converted to Dvorak with a new skin... LOL

 

[Arialia]

Sorry for off-topic, but this is rather curious.

A qwerty keyboard that can be converted to Dvorak with a new skin... LOL



Excellent

 

[pyropandora]

Wow, the idea of being able to take screenshots with the pandora will be awesome but where would you paste the screenshot into? Pandora Paint?

Anyway some really great ideas for the pandora keyboard

Sorry for off-topic, but this is rather curious.

A qwerty keyboard that can be converted to Dvorak with a new skin... LOL



Excellent



Hmm... That is strange I don't think I would be able to change from the QWERTY style

 

[quantenmagier]

both layouts are good,
but i voted for cosurgi because i use other special symbols same as much as komma and period, and that is easier for me with a dedicated fn key on the left which seems to be easier to remap on cosurgis design than on kagatos.

about the pandora-key, what was about having it instead of select? i remeber to be not the only one who would like to have it there...?

greets
Simon

 

[cosurgi]

wow, the amount of voters is now getting close to 150 people, which is 5% of 3000 of first patch production.

And now, that preorder on 30th September is confirmed, I'm really curious what will go to the serial production.

Dear Pandora Developers, can you reveal the secret what keyboard on the Pandora will be used, please?

PS: maybe it wouldn't be too crazy if you produced 1500 with one keyboard printed and 1500 with another? And when ordering Pandora people could specify which keyboard they want, or that they don't care and can buy those that are left. That would perfectly satisfy the voting results, which are now fifty-fifty.

 

[AireTamStorm]

PS: maybe it wouldn't be too crazy if you produced 1500 with one keyboard printed and 1500 with another? And when ordering Pandora people could specify which keyboard they want, or that they don't care and can buy those that are left. That would perfectly satisfy the voting results, which are now fifty-fifty.
So what happens when one keyboard version runs out, and you have a bunch of people waiting for it to come back in stock? Thats a nightmare, right there.

 

[cosurgi]

So what happens when one keyboard version runs out, and you have a bunch of people waiting for it to come back in stock? Thats a nightmare, right there.

Of course it has to be dealt with prudently. Eg. stating clearly on the pre-order (info) page that no more units with particular keyboard are available (which would have the same effect as if devs simply made a decision to only make one version - which is the current alternative). But hey, it was just a small suggestion. I'd rather hear their answer than discuss this ad-infinitum among us as it has less and less sense now. Craig? MWeston?

 

[AireTamStorm]

My point was really, you would slow down sales waiting on a Pandora with different plastic. This has been discussed time and time again... having two versions of the Pandora is just not practical.

 

[cosurgi]

I'm shamelessly bumping this topic up, to generate more votes. If you think that it I should not do that, just tell me, and I will take notice and apologize.

 

[JayFoxRox]

I think we have enough votes,

1. Yes
2. cosurgi

I m also fine with that (Voted Yes, but the other layout) but in my opinion "." and "," should also be easily accessible through L and R as a second option, RMB and LMB have enough room elsewhere (Digital pad or something) - Just consider this if this topic is relevant to the devs and they want to use this layout. There should be a REALLY FINAL, LAST TOPIC ("',' and '.' on L and R by default?") about this if the devs can't decide themself.
However, if this doesn't happen I will just remap it on my own, but I think alot of Kagato-Layout voters would be happier with my suggestion =) (Atleast I would be)

 

[WizardStan]

I'm thinking there's a serious problem here. A difference of about 3% is pitifully small, especially when speaking of only about 5% of the first release anyway. At this point in time, you may as well flip a coin, because you're going to cause contention among about half the population anyway.

I am now actually hoping that no dev has looked at these polls at all. That way they can say whatever layout they come up with was chosen through internal debate and careful consideration. I could accept that, provided the result could be logically explained, even if I don't agree with it.
If, however, they looked at the polls and picked one of these two, it will forever feel as if they did, in fact, flip a coin. I would feel that I'd won or lost my choice based entirely on luck. Or even worse, if they go with Cosurgi's because it has a few more votes: 5 votes in 3000 possible is a disturbingly small margin.

 

[cosurgi]

If, however, they looked at the polls and picked one of these two, it will forever feel as if they did, in fact, flip a coin.

That's why I suggested to devs to make 1500 of one and 1500 of another in that first 3000 batch. But this produces other annoying problem - one of the keyboards will run out of stock, and some of the last buyers will be unhappy about their keyboard.

There should be a REALLY FINAL, LAST TOPIC ("',' and '.' on L and R by default?") about this if the devs can't decide themself.

With this one I don't agree, because I think that the voting results will be once again fifty-fifty. I think that it's now entirely up to devs.

 

[beljam]

I'm thinking there's a serious problem here. A difference of about 3% is pitifully small, especially when speaking of only about 5% of the first release anyway. At this point in time, you may as well flip a coin, because you're going to cause contention among about half the population anyway.

I don't think the problem is all that serious. Given all the other advantages of the Pandora, is the placement of two keys really a make it or break it proposition? One layout would be notably easier for me than the other, and I have voted that way, but the difference is not so great that I am going to take my money and go home, or hold a grudge later. Whichever design they choose, or even if it is not quite either one, it is still much closer to what I am looking for than anything else on the market.

It was said somewhere in one of the previous threads that this was mainly to show the devs what we as a group prefer, but there is always the chance that the winning design may be impractical for some reason. Hopefully, the devs will do their best to balance user preferences with technical and design limitations. Given that this is essentially what the Open Pandora project is about, seems like a safe bet.

jam