Keyboard Layout - Prepare Voting Pool.

[cosurgi]

I'm not sure how well cosurgi's double-fn keys would work with the Compose function...
Yes, I'm concerned about this too. Two extra symbols per key is a kind of a problem (not mentioning that it makes it more difficult to add stickers with other alphabets, by those who need it). So I made a second proposal with Ctrl,Alt but with single character per key. For that I had to remove currency symbols (€,£,¥), brightness moved to Dpad and put Air-Port mode on unused Fn+Enter position (which like in your design must be pressed at least 3 seconds to be activated).

Considering that the only price of this revision was the loss of €,£ and ¥ I will make this my final proposal (final is below, and I hope it's really final).

SVG SOURCE

(Sorry about putting it here - it should go to the other thread in fact.... but I'm replying to your concerns, so both threads are mixed)

QUOTE
but well we miss the 'Screenshot' key , someone has thinking about that and it will be great to have one
There you go craigix! Fn-Select can be screenshot

it'd be great to have a screenshot button that would work no matter whats on the screen... console session, FB, X

There you have it - I updated my layouts. You can update yours too

 

[Caine]

Suppose I want to enter Ctrl+"

I hit Ctrl+Fn+K. Would Fn turn this into Compose+" thus blocking out Ctrl+"?

Or do you intend Ctrl to be sticky, such that Ctrl+" becomes Ctrl followed by Fn+K?

Anyway, I intend to post an update of my layout later this day, so please wait with finalizing the poll for a moment.

Thanks in advance,
Caine

 

[WizardStan]

I have solved all problems!

 

[plopperz]

I have solved all problems!
http://i35.tinypic.com/rmmgxy.png


You've got my vote :lol:

 

[cosurgi]

Suppose I want to enter Ctrl+"

I hit Ctrl+Fn+K. Would Fn turn this into Compose+" thus blocking out Ctrl+"?

Or do you intend Ctrl to be sticky, such that Ctrl+" becomes Ctrl followed by Fn+K?

Ouch, I wanted this layout to be compatibile with both: sticky keys and non sticky keys. I don't want to force people on sticky keys only, let them make a choice later.

Fortunately this problem does not apply to AltGr, because AltGr is supposed to work only with letters.

To solve this problem I'm considering to move "Compose" in place of "Caps Lock" and completely remove "Caps Lock". In fact I didn't use this key for years, and to avoid accidentally pressing it on my keyboard I have mapped it into Hyper_L in my X startup script: xmodmap -e "keycode 66 = Hyper_L". Besides holding shift for few seconds, or double shift can be made "Caps Lock" in software, similar as it is configured in default KDE config.

And "Compose" must be sticky always, even if other keys are not sticky. So: [Fn+Shift=Compose][Fn+K="]=ü and [Fn+Shift=Compose][Fn+K="][Shift]=Ü, so there is no conflict between "Shift" and "Compose". Wow, are all problems solved here? If yes, then this is the final version.

Anyway, I intend to post an update of my layout later this day, so please wait with finalizing the poll for a moment.
ok I'll wait.

 

[kagato]

Suppose I want to enter Ctrl+"

I hit Ctrl+Fn+K. Would Fn turn this into Compose+" thus blocking out Ctrl+"?

Or do you intend Ctrl to be sticky, such that Ctrl+" becomes Ctrl followed by Fn+K?

Ouch, I wanted this layout to be compatibile with both: sticky keys and non sticky keys. I don't want to force people on sticky keys only, let them make a choice later.
It shouldn't be a problem.
Fn isn't like a normal meta key, it always modifies the next keypress.
Even if you allow press-and-hold as well as sticky keys, the order of keypresses is always important when Fn is involved.

So you press Ctrl, then Fn (which doesn't send a keycode), then K (which after Fn, sends the " keycode).
The software receives keycodes for Ctrl & ".

If you pressed Fn then Ctrl, you'd enter Compose mode, and pressing K would use " as an accent.
If you then pressed o, the software would just receive the ö character.

 

[P-J]

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention earlier in the design phase, but if the space bar is a small key on the bottom row as opposed to below the 'zxcv' line you've definitely lost one sale in me. Awful design.

 

[cosurgi]

Fn isn't like a normal meta key, it always modifies the next keypress.
Heh, and so I'm lost now. Which should I use as my final submission? With "Compose" on Ctrl or on Shift?

But probably you 're right that Fn is a special dead key, and press order always matters for Fn. Hmmm... perhaps I will go with "Compose" on Ctrl, and if devs discover that there is a problem with Fn they could use a second variation?

 

[kagato]

Heh, and so I'm lost now. Which should I use as my final submission? With "Compose" on Ctrl or on Shift?

Leave Compose on Ctrl; it keeps all the meta keys together, and people won't accidentally press Compose when they expect Caps Lock.

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention earlier in the design phase, but if the space bar is a small key on the bottom row as opposed to below the 'zxcv' line you've definitely lost one sale in me. Awful design.

Wow, you're easily disappointed aren't you? :huh:
It could be argued that a central position might be better, but if you look at it for a moment you'll notice that all of the QWERTY keys have retained their traditional layout. Doing anything else would either break the layout or require shrinking all the keys even more.
(Remember the Pandora is about the width of a CD case, and you'll be typing with your thumbs...)

 

[Ayla]

This way, Alt+Tab would never work.

 

[Chip]

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention earlier in the design phase, but if the space bar is a small key on the bottom row as opposed to below the 'zxcv' line you've definitely lost one sale in me. Awful design.

Really? It's actually not uncommon for qwerty cellphones. I've owned a couple like that and it's never been a problem.

 

[kagato]

This way, Alt+Tab would never work.

Sure it does; Alt -> Fn -> Space gets you Alt-Tab.
As stated above, Fn only affects the key presses that follow it, not the whole sequence.

What is tricky is Shift-Tab, as Shift would turn Fn into Fn-Lock (at which point the shift keycode gets swallowed, I'd guess).
I don't think we can allow any other key to modify Fn's behaviour.
Fn-Lock should be Fn->Fn (double tap), not Shift->Fn.

 

[Arialia]

Perhaps I wasn't paying attention earlier in the design phase, but if the space bar is a small key on the bottom row as opposed to below the 'zxcv' line you've definitely lost one sale in me. Awful design.

i'm so surprised , Pandora is first a game device :blink: .
The position of space bar is good and has good size : not so tiny in comparizing with another umpc, same size i would say and bigger than on Sharp PC 1360 without problem :lol:

if size of this touch is so important for you i suggest for you an UMPC , make your comparize here :
http://www.umpcportal.com/products/

try the Pandora model in paper

 

[fusion_power]

This entire Keyboard Layout Discussion is quite funny. 10 People with 11 different opinions, nice :lol: How likely is it that the Comunity ever find a FINAL Layout? A Layout that pleases everyone? Or more important, how likely is it that the Pandora Devs decide the Keyboard Layout after Comunity Designs?
This Discussion could be endless and forever, I doubt that we ever find a final Layout, I would BET we never find a final Layout!

 

[AireTamStorm]

I'm for cosurgi's designs, so far. They've improved upon the beta qwerty / punctuation focus for a while.

I believe I said a while back that we are not going to come to a consensus on this issue. You provide your layouts, vote on them. The devs look at the poll, and if #1 just doesn't make any sense to them they pick #2. Just look at the Pandora logo on the blog for an example of that. Best thing you can do is sit back and think before voting, and create the most functional and clean layout as possible. If this does not get done soon we'll end up being the bottleneck on the release date .

 

[Arialia]

+1 AireTamStorm

+0.8 Fusion_Power , maybe this brainstorming are a little help for devs why not :rolleyes:

in all cases it was very interesting to think about that, how difficult is too make it :huh:

FN send or not keycode ? it depends on the Mweston's driver that ... not sent keycode means more work for him : must add virtual key when are pressing after Fn ( as most of laptops : so you can't personalize the action of these keys ) and i don't think it's better.

No i think the soluce must be software in the keymap as a deadkey. Must be try on linux

 

[cosurgi]

<edit - about older design, and why €,£,¥ were removed from the design>

I'm not sure how well cosurgi's double-fn keys would work with the Compose function...
Yes, I'm concerned about this too. Two extra symbols per key is a kind of a problem (not mentioning that it makes it more difficult to add stickers with other alphabets, by those who need it). So I made a second proposal with Ctrl,Alt but with single character per key. For that I had to remove currency symbols (€,£,¥), brightness moved to Dpad and put Air-Port mode on unused Fn+Enter position (which like in your design must be pressed at least 3 seconds to be activated).

Considering that the only price of this revision was the loss of €,£ and ¥ I think it's a deal worth it becasue in exchange we get Alt and Ctrl on the keyboard.
</edit>

What is tricky is Shift-Tab, as Shift would turn Fn into Fn-Lock (at which point the shift keycode gets swallowed, I'd guess).
I don't think we can allow any other key to modify Fn's behaviour.
Fn-Lock should be Fn->Fn (double tap), not Shift->Fn.

Leave Compose on Ctrl; it keeps all the meta keys together, and people won't accidentally press Compose when they expect Caps Lock.
Thanks Kagato for your hints. I hope that this one is really final:

SVG SOURCE

I'm for cosurgi's designs, so far. They've improved upon the beta qwerty / punctuation focus for a while.
Thanks

How long should I wait for Caine, with opening the poll?

 

[cosurgi]

Anyway, I intend to post an update of my layout later this day, so please wait with finalizing the poll for a moment.

How long should I wait for Caine, with opening the poll?

I got an idea - I can make a poll option for you, so it will be possible to vote for your design once it is finished. And when it is finished - it will be simply added to the list of pictures. Sounds good?

 

[Caine]

Guys, sorry it took a bit long. I got home a bit late from work.

Here is my updated design:

Keyboard

In case the software cannot determine the order of keypresses as described by Kagato above then:
- move wifi toggle to Fn+enter
- put AltGr on Fn+Space
- Move Compose to right shift as shift value (i.e. lshift+rshift (sticky))

-Caine.

 

[cosurgi]

Guys, sorry it took a bit long. I got home a bit late from work.

Here is my updated design:

Keyboard

In case the software cannot determine the order of keypresses as described by Kagato above then:
- move wifi toggle to Fn+enter
- put AltGr on Fn+Space
- Move Compose to right shift as shift value (i.e. lshift+rshift (sticky))

-Caine.


great. So I'm making the poll now.