Keyboard Poll, Finally!

[Esn]

How do you like this solution?

I like it! It's a nice solution.

But I don't think there necessarily needs to be an indicator to indicate which mode it's in; that should be easy enough to figure out by just tapping the "ctrl," key once, for example.

 

[kagato]

OK, here goes.

I was planning on doing an XBox Chatpad clone, but a quick search indicated that the Chatpad is region specific, so even with two modifier keys it only targeted part of its market. I think the current plan of using a Compose key plus unlabeled AltGr functions offers greater flexibility.

Updated Kagato Layout

I thought about the pros and cons; in the end I've stuck to my guns and left Ctrl and Alt on the shoulder buttons.
Here's my rationale for this layout:
-If you're doing lot of text input as opposed to application control, the meta keys are taking up 2 extra spaces.
- . and , are primary punctuation symbols, and should have dedicated keys if possible. (eg, see Chatpad)
- I'm fairly confident that, even laid flat on the table, the shoulder buttons can still easily be reached.
- Ctrl and Alt are often mapped to Fire keys on games anyway.
- You can press Ctrl/Alt and the mouse buttons together while in Mouse Mode, and still keep your thumb on the joystick.
- No keys should be mapped to

by default, so that they can be used for software control (eg. OK, Back, Cancel)
(In Mouse Mode it's not an issue as you can just use the mouse as normal)
- While the Dpad should be interpreted as cursor keys most of the time, some programs may want both Dpad control and text input. Fn-Dpad can force cursor key mode.
- I've removed the "Display Mode" function, because I'm no longer sure it's a useful item. Moved Wireless Toggle to the same spot.

More a bit later on.
[Edit: later...]

To elaborate on the "Display Mode" point, I originally figured you'd need to turn the external display on and off, and cycle through possible display modes. But most devices I've used with a secondary composite output have it enabled all the time anyway. It'll be up to specific applications as to what its function will be, and for the main environment (kdrive) the external display behaviour can be set through the settings menu. A dedicated key is probably unnecessary.

Modified Cosurgi Layout

Very little changed; again, just taken off the Display Mode button and moved Wireless Toggle (really didn't like having a function on Enter), and also swapped ., with <>

 

[peca]

I like last Updated Kagato Layout from Kagato. Only thing that I would change is currency symbols, they can be omitted and reached by "compose" key, likewise Compose + = + E, Compose + = + Y and Compose + = + P or else. But I have no idea what place on keys instead currency symbols.

My original screen (desktop) sliding idea was just brainwave, so it can be 2d scroll wheel instead it, I just forgot that mouse wheel

I believe that CTRL/ALT on shoulder buttons is better than having it on typing keys too. (OK everybody already knows this)

 

[White Demon]

How do you like this solution?

That's a very good solution. I actually prefer this one to Kagato's now.

 

[cosurgi]

@JayFoxRox: I see that your layout is similar with Kagato's layout. If we make that "last voting" - do you want to see your proposal there? I would like to suggest that you withdraw it, because Kagato's design is, sorry to say that, much better and thought through. But anyway, it's up to you. I'd like to hear any answer from you.

@Kagato, thanks a lot for your updated layout, and also for updating mine. I'm working now on an improved version of mine - which is of course inspired a lot by your new design. Basically I just had a simple idea: the AltGr of 0-9 keys is not allocated. I could squeeze few extra symbols there:

I need to think about which least used symbols to put there. This will allow to free Dpad (like in your design), and maybe put those £, € and ¥ that you have in your design (and ß for EvilDragan who is the author of original design ).

I'm still hesitating about my "merged" solution... After all sticky keys can also be used here(*). It could make things more complicated, but on the other hand it requires only one change to my proposal: putting "," and "." beside the "Alt" and "Ctrl" labels.... I still don't know...

But now I'll be away from computer for two days. But I'll think about it and then I'll put my design here. I'm sorry about the delay which I'm causing here.

Also I was thinking how the poll could look like (still one question too much):


1. Is this the last keyboard poll?
- yes
- no

2. Where do you want a Pandora logo button?
- I don't want it - let us keep the keyboard design it as it is now.
- Alt
- Menu
- Select
- somewhere else

3. Can you agree to have ß, £, € and ¥ PRINTED on the keys? It would be an AltGr+Letter combination, for example: [Fn][Alt][P]=£.
- YES! I will use at least one of them.
- yes, I can agree to have them printed on letters "S", "P", "E" and "Y"
- yes, I can agree to have them printed on the top 0-9 row
- no, I don't like them - they should be mapped in software instead.

4. A rundown vote between two(?) winner proposals:
- cosurgi updated layout
- Kagato updated layout
- (?)Peca's ascetism
- (?)JayFoxRox
- (?)I'm not satisfied by those choices and I WILL SUBMIT a better design to prove that it is possible to make a better one!

I don't know what layouts besides the winning ones to include here.


(*) for others, who didn't use such small devices yet: sticky keys are used by people on most handhelds (because they are more comfortable). Pressing multiple buttons (while holding in hands, without a table) is done sequentially, eg. Ctrl-Alt-Backspace doesn't need to press them all simultaneously But first Ctrl, then Alt, then Backspace.

PS: this is the "unfinished" updated layout from me. (and I still don't know if I'll propose that "merged" solution). Just so that you would know before I'll post a finished version in two days:

 

[peca]

4. A rundown vote between two(?) winner proposals:
- cosurgi updated layout
- Kagato updated layout
- (?)Peca's ascetism
- (?)JayFoxRox
- (?)I'm not satisfied by those choices and I WILL SUBMIT a better design to prove that it is possible to make a better one!

I don't know what layouts besides the winning ones to include here.

My opinion is to use just first 2 layout. I guess, that very few people want ascetics layout due to "everybody" want punctuation printed, even if it is not perfect. So make just last "battle" for layout (I not expect many votes). I think that this is just hit for devs and the rest last on them.

 

[JayFoxRox]

cosurgi:

Yeh, kick mines out:

Poll should be like this:

1. Is this the last keyboard poll?
- yes
(This is taking longer and longer if you say no all the time)

2. Where do you want a Pandora logo button?
- I don't want it
- Alt (Only If you voted for cosurgi)
- Start
- Menu
- Select

3. Can you agree to have ß, £, € and ¥ PRINTED on the keys? It would be an AltGr+Letter combination, for example: [Fn][Alt][P]=£.
(Enough people said they don't want it in this poll, you even found it out on your own)

4. A rundown vote between two(?) winner proposals:
- cosurgi updated layout with the changes from 2
- Kagato updated layout with the changes from 2
(This is the last thing, we don't need more options)

 

[kagato]

I like last Updated Kagato Layout from Kagato. Only thing that I would change is currency symbols, they can be omitted and reached by "compose" key, likewise Compose + = + E, Compose + = + Y and Compose + = + P or else. But I have no idea what place on keys instead currency symbols.
(More correctly, you would use AltGr-E/Y/P. AltGr is for alternate symbols on a key, Compose is for assembling multiple symbols together.)
If another 3 keys are needed for something, they certainly could be moved. Those are just the symbols that are printed on international variations of the standard US QWERTY keyboard, so some people might expect them, they don't favour any one language over another, and I had the space.

QUOTE
My original screen (desktop) sliding idea was just brainwave, so it can be 2d scroll wheel instead it, I just forgot that mouse wheel
Nothing wrong with the idea, but it could be implemented using scroll wheel input anyway. (And for those who might not be aware, there are already input devices that scroll in 2 directions and have Linux support)

I'm working now on an improved version of mine - which is of course inspired a lot by your new design. Basically I just had a simple idea: the AltGr of 0-9 keys is not allocated. I could squeeze few extra symbols there:
I would strongly advise against doing that.
At the moment there is one common way of entering standard symbols, Fn-<key>. Adding AltGr to access regular printed characters on some keys would significantly complicate text input; and you've only used it on two keys, so people would have to remember the exception rule for just those two cases. Granted, you could add more symbols, but there's plenty of room for AltGr symbols on the main keyboard too (with a lot more room for labeling if need be).

QUOTE
I'm still hesitating about my "merged" solution... After all sticky keys can also be used here(*). It could make things more complicated, but on the other hand it requires only one change to my proposal: putting "," and "." beside the "Alt" and "Ctrl" labels.... I still don't know...
It's an interesting solution. Personally, I don't think I like it as much as your previous layout, as in "punctuation mode" you're left with two redundant fn keys so the gains are minimal. I think optimising the keyboard one way or the other is preferable.

Just curious; what does the Pause key get you (Fn-Start) that you couldn't get using Start alone? Does it have some system-level behaviour I'm not aware of? I would have thought any ported apps could just be modified to respond to Start instead of Pause, or even have Start use the Pause keycode.

On the poll:
Drop the first question, it's not very helpful.

QUOTE
2. Where do you want a Pandora logo button?
I wouldn't bother asking this one. According to MWeston, "Menu" is the only system-level key, so I think it's the only sensible choice to become a "Pandora" key. If you must ask the question, just make it "Do you want the Menu key to be labelled with the Pandora logo?", but it's a purely cosmetic choice regardless.

QUOTE
3. Can you agree to have ß, £, € and ¥ PRINTED on the keys? It would be an AltGr+Letter combination, for example: [Fn][Alt][P]=£.
Wasn't this answered in the first poll? Pretty much tied between "Don't use them but would accept labels", "Don't use them and don't want labels", and "Use them but don't want labels". I'd say go ahead and include the keys if you've got spare room, but don't rehash old questions.

 

[pyropandora]

Hmm I have not yet voted because I am not too sure but I would like to see accents on letters and the ` key to open up games consoles.

 

[Esn]

I'd be quite happy with either the updated cosurgi or the updated Kagato, though I still have a slight preference for Kagato's since it just makes a bit more sense for me. The one thing that I still don't like about cosurgi's (sorry, I just noticed this) is that the "-" key is up near the top. That key isn't just the "minus" sign; I use it not-infrequently as a punctuation mark, and it's just not in a very convenient place. It would be nicer if it traded places with one of the lesser-used punctuation keys, such as "~" or "_" or "*".

QUOTE
1. Is this the last keyboard poll?

Add in a "maybe" option, or don't include the question. It's all well and good to say "yes", but there might be some news on the hardware side that will necessitate another poll... you never know.

 

[kagato]

Hmm I have not yet voted because I am not too sure but I would like to see accents on letters and the ` key to open up games consoles.
For a single function like "open console" it would be more practical to bind that function to another key. [`/~] is used because it's out of the way and easy to find, not because it has any special meaning.
On a dedicated games machine like this, the Select button is probably a better choice.

 

[White Demon]

Drop the first question, instead state that it WILL be the last poll. This has already gone on long enough, it needs to be final this time.

 

[cosurgi]

Hi, I'm back online.

QUOTE
My original screen (desktop) sliding idea was just brainwave, so it can be 2d scroll wheel instead it, I just forgot that mouse wheel
Nothing wrong with the idea, but it could be implemented using scroll wheel input anyway. (And for those who might not be aware, there are already input devices that scroll in 2 directions and have Linux support)yeah. I'm using Logitech MX400 with scrolling in two directions. It works well under linux in openoffice, firefox and even inkscape

I'm working now on an improved version of mine - which is of course inspired a lot by your new design. Basically I just had a simple idea: the AltGr of 0-9 keys is not allocated. I could squeeze few extra symbols there:
I would strongly advise against doing that.
At the moment there is one common way of entering standard symbols, Fn-<key>. Adding AltGr to access regular printed characters on some keys would significantly complicate text input; and you've only used it on two keys, so people would have to remember the exception rule for just those two cases. Granted, you could add more symbols, but there's plenty of room for AltGr symbols on the main keyboard too (with a lot more room for labeling if need be).You are right. No AltGr symbols will be printed on the keyboard, that would be just too confusing. But there is one problem though: I'm one key short. There is no place to put "\". In the end I have found a solution (provided that I don't want to use Dpad for brightness - it was causing some confusion for people)... not sure how good it is:

• put WiFi toggle on Fn-Menu and
• put "\" on Fn-Enter

This actually means that I'm using Fn-Enter for an ordinary character, which is not good. I was thinking which ordinary character to put there, and in the end I decided that "\" is probably the best choice (because it's not used frequently). So that's the actual price for not having brightness control on Dpad (and I dropped Display Toggle and Pause too).

QUOTE
I'm still hesitating about my "merged" solution... After all sticky keys can also be used here(*). It could make things more complicated, but on the other hand it requires only one change to my proposal: putting "," and "." beside the "Alt" and "Ctrl" labels.... I still don't know...
It's an interesting solution. Personally, I don't think I like it as much as your previous layout, as in "punctuation mode" you're left with two redundant fn keys so the gains are minimal. I think optimising the keyboard one way or the other is preferable.One thing for me is sure: for most people this will be an unnecessary complication. But in the case if my design will win and if the devs will decide to use it - this can be a life-saver for people who really want Alt,Ctrl on shoulder buttons. I'll not submit this "merged" solution to voting. Even if they are not printed - the keys could be remapped in such way by people who want Alt,Ctrl on shoulders.

I'll rather highlight this solution for the Pandora team as an alternative that could maybe keep happy the other group of people who voted for your design (only if I will win, which is not sure ). And leave the decision for them.

Just curious; what does the Pause key get you (Fn-Start) that you couldn't get using Start alone? Does it have some system-level behaviour I'm not aware of? I would have thought any ported apps could just be modified to respond to Start instead of Pause, or even have Start use the Pause keycode.
Oh, right - I removed Pause And used that spot for WiFi toggle.

QUOTE
The one thing that I still don't like about cosurgi's (sorry, I just noticed this) is that the "-" key is up near the top. That key isn't just the "minus" sign; I use it not-infrequently as a punctuation mark, and it's just not in a very convenient place. It would be nicer if it traded places with one of the lesser-used punctuation keys, such as "~" or "_" or "*".
That's right, "-" is used more frequently, than the place I've put it in. To keep all those symbols together (I think they should be together) I changed places of "+" "-" "=" with "[""]" "_". I hope that it is better now.

The last keyboard Poll
OK, so here's how the poll will probably look like (with all your comments taken into account):

1. Do you want the Menu key to be labelled with the Pandora logo?
- yes
- no

2. A rundown vote between two winner proposals:
- cosurgi - Ctrl,Alt on keyboard
- Kagato - Ctrl,Alt on shoulders


@kagato - one more thing - IMHO it's better if we will give two pictures of our design for the voting: one with all non-printed text (green & orange) and another with only the printed text. So it would make it easier for people to judge it. And we both should provide .svg source file (again) for the devs. Maybe those files will be useful for actual printing of the labels on keyboard? EDIT: and last thing - we should both put a note that we are transferring the full rights to use our designs to Pandora team. (as far as I'm concerned they can use it exactly as their own and pick any license they wish to use and do whatever else they need to )



cosurgi updated layout

SVG source

Changes:

• removed "Pause" and "Display toggle"
• changed places of - + = with [ ] _
• moved brightness control from Dpad to 7 and 8
• moved WiFi toggle to Menu and "\" to Fn+Enter

with only printed stuff shown:

 

[kagato]

But there is one problem though: I'm one key short. There is no place to put "\". [...]

• put WiFi toggle on Fn-Menu and
• put "\" on Fn-Enter

This actually means that I'm using Fn-Enter for an ordinary character, which is not good.
I guess you could put "\" on Fn-7, WiFi on Fn-8; then put brightness on Fn-L/R, Fn-Joy2 (ooh, analog adjustment ) or even just move it to the settings menu (the DS does this).


As requested by Cosurgi, for the purposes of the next vote here's my layout annotated, plain, and with SVG source.

To further complicate things ( :rolleyes: ) here's an alternative punctuation layout.
This takes the symbols further away from their standard positions, but keeps similar symbols together; and it should be better optimised for reaching common punctuation and accents.
(ie, the common stuff is to the left, so you can press Fn then <key> quickly using both thumbs.)

Functional keys remain unchanged.

 

[cosurgi]

@Kagato

It's a very good idea to put brightness on L/R ! I'll check it out, and probably use it!

I've just read your PMs. I'm preparing the poll now - I think that it will be ready in about 30 minutes. I'll let you know immediately when it's ready. If you will make the first reply on this poll, then we can follow the scenario that your proposal is in your post.
I'm wondering whether we could post our "alternative" proposals. Not as a poll option (there will be only two votes possible me and you - of course!) but as an alternative solution for the devs. My "alternative" is the merged solution. Your alternative is different punctuation placement.

 

[parag0n]

why do they both have OK/Accept on the inside button? Isn't it normally on the bottom button, and right hand button is cancel / back?

 

[peca]

why do they both have OK/Accept on the inside button? Isn't it normally on the bottom button, and right hand button is cancel / back?

Due to "A" button is often use for OK/Accept and "X" is often use for Cancel/eXit and "B" for Back respectively. Precision layout doesn't matter, as this will not be printed on device and everybody can shape it by someself.

edit: mistype in BB tag
edit: B for Back

 

[CoMiKe]

QUOTE
why do they both have OK/Accept on the inside button? Isn't it normally on the bottom button, and right hand button is cancel / back?

I totally agree with you. I prefer the OK button to be the right one, and the back button being the left one.

In fact, I think the main button is the B button, so that should be the OK button, as the OK function should be the main one.

EDIT: Well, I believe that could be an option inside the system, so everyone could choose the preferred button function layout.

 

[cosurgi]

OK guys, here goes:

Cosurgi updated layout:

SVG source
plain view:

Alternative proposal for devs to take into consideration (not a part of the poll):

SVG source

About position of OK/Cancel, Back etc.... - we can talk about it later It depends if the letters ABXY will be actually printed on Pandora. If they will be printed, then it's up to you guys to make a poll for that. For me it's (currently) too much to bear with, sorry

now I'm making the Final keyboard poll: "The last battle"

 

[greendots]

Here is one that should satisfy those who want alt and control on the keyboard portion of pandora. It also adheres closer to the "qwerty" standard. There is letters added specially for spanish and german typing users.