Keyboard Layout - Prepare Voting Pool.

[kagato]

Im still really concerned about kagato's design of the number row. shift+# has a standard definition in QWERTY.

The reasoning behind my layout is that the number keys are separated a fair way from the main keyboard, and probably aren't as easy to type on. You need those punctuation keys a lot, so for ease of typing I've brought the same layout down to the first row.

On typing accents: I've thought about MilanC's comment some more, and he makes a good point regarding software handling.
Windows Mobile can get away with their system because the OS supplies the textbox controls; under Linux we don't have that luxury.
Ideally you'd want an accent input method that can be bound to the keyboard driver instead of the application. I think Arialia's dead-key suggestion might work best.

So the Accent button (I'm now favouring Fn-LTrig) activates dead-key mode, the next keypress specifies the accent, and the last key is the character that receives the accent. (On an invalid combination the accent is ignored.)
eg. Fn LTrig " o -> ö
Fn LTrig ' Shift e -> É.
That makes it a constant 4 presses per accented character (5 for caps), and the application only receives the final character input so it doesn't need to manage accents itself.
(This is different to full AltGr input for non-roman languages, which might be bound to Fn-RTrig and really needs key labels. It's a separate problem.)

 

[PandoraLox]

I really don't care, just make it already!!! :lol:

But really, my ideal setup would at the VERY least just have it where I can map the keys anyway I want via an application that'll allow quick profile switchouts with each profile allowing for different mappings of the keys & controls.

I only speak English so I won't need it for speaking in other languages or anything, but I can imagine playing some games which require the presets of using the A, S W X keys for specific actions or whatever being a necessity, mainly in Flash gaming which many times you're forced to use a game's preset of say... using U, A, W, or X keys for direction or firing or whatever - thus mapping anything to the keypad OR the keyboard in a quick profile swap would be ideal greatness - a luxury I enjoyed with a Nostromo controller once upon a time.

Also, my idea of hacking a mini Maximus Optimus keyboard into this thing sounds more & more tempting - everyone in favor of paying the extra 800 bucks say 'I' !!!! :lol:

 

[PSyMastR]

Personally, I think that if it was loaded with Cyrillic and other non-english characters all over the keys like some people want, I would seriously consider not buying the Pandora just on a pure ugly factor.

 

[Arialia]

I can't quickly find how to type latin accented char by SCIM (yes, I found project site, but not found simple desription how to type). I you can explain it briefly, please.

As i have a french keyboard and not qwerty keyboard, it's difficult for me to find that too, but with US international layout you don't need the use of scim for latin accented as explained here for linux : http://wiki.linuxquestions.org/wiki/Accented_Characters ( you must setting your touch 'Compose', for me under Ubuntu i have set to 'Left window key' ) so to have é you must press [Compose] ['] [e]

it s for that i prefer for accented letters the system with compose ( by default for everyone ) or deadkeys ( by country ) and not Scim , i think scim is perfect for another alphabet or another system writing like Cyrillic, greek, Klingons :rolleyes: , Japanese ...

but i think my config of scim has a little problem must reboot for that ....
QUOTE

In fact on a little device like Pandora the position of key is not a real problem : we can't type on it like dactylo , as french i prefer an US layout with dead key for accent ( ^`) and ( " ' , ) can be use for ( ¨ ´ ¸ )

Oh my, I found that exist 17 (!) diacritical marks or accents. Sure, any language don't use them all, but which put on keyboard?


I think, that what we need just now is good layout without exactly defined functionality, as functionality can be SW changed. As each language use different accents or none accents but different characters (Russian, Greek, Asians, Klingons, Atlantians...), I guess that labeling it on keys is not good idea. I believe that this allow as many ways of typing, as everybody can wish, and I guess that this is Kagato's layout. Little issue can be wifi switch on space, which is just next to Fn and can be very easily pressed. But it can be workaround as long press (about 3 seconds) and nobody switch wifi accidentally.


most of diacritic are on standard US layout and Kagato has put them on keyboard

some must be a problem for hungarian as they use both o u with trema (¨) and double acute accent ( ˝ ) but easyly solve by two characters with Altgr maybe , carom can be do with U , vietnamese is difficult because it use some letters with two diacritics together http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnamese_alphabet#Tone_marks :blink:

here scim can be useful for vietnamese i find this on french ubuntu documentation :
http://doc.ubuntu-fr.org/scim#vietnamien1

QUOTE

On typing accents: I've thought about MilanC's comment some more, and he makes a good point regarding software handling.
Windows Mobile can get away with their system because the OS supplies the textbox controls; under Linux we don't have that luxury.
Ideally you'd want an accent input method that can be bound to the keyboard driver instead of the application. I think Arialia's dead-key suggestion might work best.

So the Accent button (I'm now favouring Fn-LTrig) activates dead-key mode, the next keypress specifies the accent, and the last key is the character that receives the accent. (On an invalid combination the accent is ignored.)
eg. Fn LTrig " o -> ö
Fn LTrig ' Shift e -> É.
That makes it a constant 4 presses per accented character (5 for caps), and the application only receives the final character input so it doesn't need to manage accents itself.
(This is different to full AltGr input for non-roman languages, which might be bound to Fn-RTrig and really needs key labels. It's a separate problem.)



Well i think a 'Compose' key (i prefer this term because it is an old key and more generic use ) is a good thing and yet implemented in linux
but also for locale setting some key with deadkey function could be useful and no need of 'compose' so reduce pressing keys

for example for é , è , à, i could press [FN] ['][e] , [FN][`][e], [FN][`][a] and for ' : [FN]['][space]
in place of [Compose][FN] ['][e] ,[Compose] [FN][`][e],[Compose] [FN][`][a]

as [Compose] is give by 2 keys ... i prefer 3 press than five
you have forget than ' " ` must be obtain by Fn key :rolleyes: or you want mean press only touch where is the accent without Fn maybe , also this reduce also combining , why not? everything is software settings after all B)

 

[cosurgi]

I started receiving PMs about withdraws. There are currently only 13 proposals left. Since the maximum is 15 answers in a poll, it is theoretically possible now to make a poll. But there are 6 questions, while in a poll only maximum 3 are allowed. Perhaps a mod could create a poll with 6 questions? I'll ask Chip, because he was most involved in this discussion (and will probbaly decide to skip the 1st question ).

I got a PM reply from Chip, he says that the limit of 3 questions is hardcoded, and moderators cannot make polls with more questions. So he says that he cannot make a poll with 5 or 6 questions, and that it's up to us to make a poll.

So I guess that in the end I'll make that poll, but I'm waiting for reply from peca, hootcooler and caine about their final revisions.

And I think that the poll will have those three questions (I'm still using old question numbers here, to avoid confusion in the following discussion):

2. International characters: Do you want to have YOUR OWN language specific characters to be printed on the keyboard? (as compared with punctuation characters, which are are: ~`!@#$%^&*()_-+=[{]};:'"\|,<.>/? )

a) I'm using a ROMAN ALPHABET language with several accented letters but I DO NOT WANT them printed on the keyboard. Accented letters would be too much junk for so small keyboard and placement of PUNCTUATION characters is much more important. I know my own language very good, and I know the obvious key combinations to write an accented letter that I need (either with "AltGr" or with "Accent" (also called "Compose") key).

b) I'm using a ROMAN ALPHABET language with several accented letters, and I WANT them printed on the keyboard, but their placement is LESS important than placement of all PUNCTUATION characters

c) I'm using a ROMAN ALPHABET language with several accented letters, and I WANT them printed on the keyboard, and their placement is MORE important than placement of mere PUNCTUATION characters

d) I'm using a NON-ROMAN ALPHABET language but I DO NOT WANT that another alphabet (cyryllic, kana/kanji, etc...) printed on each key. I prefer to have only QWERTY and input my own language using SCIM IME or stickers or another similar solution. Another alphabet would be too much junk for so small keyboard.

e) I'm using a NON-ROMAN ALPHABET language, and I WANT a character of that another alphabet (CYRYLLIC) printed on each key in its standard location or close to it,

f) I'm using a NON-ROMAN ALPHABET language, and I WANT a character of that another alphabet (KANA/KANJI etc...) printed on each key in its standard location or close to it,

g) My native language is ENGLISH (or doesn't use any accents), I don't need any accented letters nor other alphabets, and I DO NOT WANT them being printed because PUNCTUATION characters are more important and accented/non-roman letters would be too much junk for so small keyboard.

h) My native language is ENGLISH (or doesn't use any accents), I don't need any accented letters nor other alphabets but I CAN ACCEPT them being printed, but placement of all PUNCTUATION characters is MORE important.

i) My native language is ENGLISH (or doesn't use any accents), I don't need any accented letters nor other alphabets but I AGREE that placement of them (ACCENTED letters or CYRYLLIC/KANA/KANJI) is more important than placement of mere PUNCTUATION characters,


11. Where do you want to have Alt, Ctrl mapped:
a) I prefer Alt, Ctrl as L/R shoulder buttons
b) I prefer Alt, Ctrl on Dpad or ABXY buttons
c) I want Alt, Ctrl to be PRINTED (labelled) on the keyboard. And I do NOT care where.
d) I prefer Alt, Ctrl as two buttons on bottom left ( <, and >. in original layout)
e) I prefer Alt with Fn on bottom left and Ctrl on bottom right
f) I prefer Ctrl with Fn on bottom left and Alt on bottom right
g) I prefer Alt, Ctrl to be PRINTED somewhere on the keyboard, but not in positions mentioned above

22. Finally - pick one of the final proposals submitted by everyone participating in this discussion
- 1...
- 2...
- 3...
- 4 ....
..... all the pictures from here go here, without the obsoleted ones (marked as REMOVED). After peca, hootcooler and caine will post their final revision.


When I will get final revisions, I'll make that poll. Somewhere around tommorow evening.

Wow I just realized that the percentage outcome of voting in this poll may tell the devs how many Pandoras of particular keyboard layout to make in the next batch (not the 3000 first one) - when they will probably print several different keyboard layouts.

 

[Esn]

Personally, I think that if it was loaded with Cyrillic and other non-english characters all over the keys like some people want, I would seriously consider not buying the Pandora just on a pure ugly factor.

Ok, honestly: I use Cyrillic characters daily, but I would definitely not want them to be on Pandora's keyboard. First, it would be ugly, and second, I'd prefer to customly assign the letters to whatever feels more comfortable. My current keyboard has no Cyrillic characters on it either; I type from memory, and it's really not so hard.

 

[_VWV_]

Ok, honestly: I use Cyrillic characters daily, but I would definitely not want them to be on Pandora's keyboard. First, it would be ugly, and second, I'd prefer to customly assign the letters to whatever feels more comfortable.

+1

My current keyboard has no Cyrillic characters on it either; I type from memory, and it's really not so hard.

-1
Mmm Sounds like you're a superman because it is hard in my opinion. I'm planning to use stickers.

 

[Arialia]

i confirm again SCIM is great on US layout ( i test it on French layout and have some surprises : the 'A' sound is on key 'Q' for example , i think SCIM work on Keycode and not Keysym , so need certainly a work on file config for Pandora Keyboard )

I can't quickly find how to type latin accented char by SCIM (yes, I found project site, but not found simple desription how to type). I you can explain it briefly, please.



Ok i have found it : install scim-m17n too, select latin-pre click on help under scim quick menu and you can see how it works

the language ime are in /usr/share/m17n/ and have extension *.mim
sometimes the *.mim are not really intuitive but you can make your version as you like :
for example for greek to make ά you must type ";α" not intuitive for me :huh: and q give ; :unsure:

 

[cosurgi]

Ok, honestly: I use Cyrillic characters daily, but I would definitely not want them to be on Pandora's keyboard. First, it would be ugly, and second, I'd prefer to customly assign the letters to whatever feels more comfortable. My current keyboard has no Cyrillic characters on it either; I type from memory, and it's really not so hard.
Exactly. While others would like to print accented letters and cyryllic letters on the keys - for people like YOU. This is why I think it is a good thing to put in a pool. And you will vote that you use cyryllic, but DO NOT want it printed - answer (d) .

That reminds me, I also should put a vote option for english people, who don't use any accents or non-roman alphabets.

 

[Arialia]

@cosurgi : sorry for delay for my answer to your PM but need lot of thinking

I think your last keyboard is very great B) , all we need are on.

in fact on mine i wanted to have math operation ( + - / * ) at right of keyboard but with more thinking , if i program a calculator ( a python calculator of course ) i would use the game button for that, maybe more easy to access , you can remove mine for poll

I think position of characters is important for Qwerty users, for others not because keyboard is too different than Pandora keyboard .....

some persons have said that accented letters or cyrillic on keyboard made it ugly , it is ridiculous :angry:

but we can't put all accented letters latin on this tiny keyboard : too many ! cyrillic ? and why not greek so ? and all the others scripting so ? It's impossible :huh:

here we all writing sometimes in english so we need english on Pandora
and for others we can use scim ( and more easy to adapt than keymap )

but well we miss the 'Screenshot' key , someone has thinking about that and it will be great to have one
no need really to mark a touch for that but .....

maybe put trema on shift FN of " to psychologic impact , everyone who had read this topic know than we can have ë with [compose][Fn]["][e] but for new customer it may be important to see his accent on keyboard :rolleyes: and can have ë with [Fn][Shift][¨][e] also

 

[cosurgi]

Thank you for your reply

you can remove mine for poll

ok There are plenty of choices already

maybe put trema on shift FN of " to psychologic impact , everyone who had read this topic know than we can have ë with [compose][Fn]["][e] but for new customer it may be important to see his accent on keyboard :rolleyes: and can have ë with [Fn][Shift][¨][e] also
OK

I will wait for answers from Synthetix, Conso and Chip if they want to submit their designs into the poll. Then I'll make a poll. If they don't answer, then their designs will be in the poll I think this won't offend them?

Also I have updated the poll questions, listed above on this page. You might want to have a look at this (probably final) version of the poll.

 

[AireTamStorm]

Also I have updated the poll questions, listed above on this page. You might want to have a look at this (probably final) version of the poll.


Disclaimer: My Opinion, yours may differ.

2: Too many choices. You use the word "tolerate", which I doubt is really appropriate. With the limited keys on the Pandora, usability of the punctuation characters is likely to drop if other functions are crammed onto a single key (I know there will be people that will disagree with me on this). You are probably better off asking "Would you rather prioritize getting punctuation into the standard QWERTY layout, or having accented characters according to their standard layouts?" You also need to link to examples on these, so that people can actually see what you're talking about. If you do not have an example layout (even from a non-Pandora keyboard), it would probably be best to simply not list it as an option. There are exceptions to that, but for example, the kana / kanji layout that you and I discussed, you should probably link to the wikipedia keyboard layout I showed you, or design one on the Pandora layout. It is cool, definitely, but you need something to give people as an example. Overall, slight rewording and maybe a little consolidation will go a long way on a poll.

11: Like with 2, if you don't have a picture with the actual layout, its likely best not to list it. (Unless for example, nobody has a layout with Ctl - Alt on the bottom left side of the keyboard, which is standard)

22: Nothing to say here, really.

 

[cosurgi]

2: Too many choices. You use the word "tolerate", which I doubt is really appropriate.
ok, changed

With the limited keys on the Pandora, usability of the punctuation characters is likely to drop if other functions are crammed onto a single key (I know there will be people that will disagree with me on this). You are probably better off asking "Would you rather prioritize getting punctuation into the standard QWERTY layout, or having accented characters according to their standard layouts?"
I think that I cleaned this up as much as I could. Now there are only 9 answers. Three for roman alphabet people, three for non-roman, and three for english people. All of them ask respectively for importance of punctuation characters, accents and non-roman alphabets. I hope that all cases are covered.

IMHO it is important to divide voters into those three major categories (roman, non-roman and english). Because for example it may turn out that only english people want kana/kanji on Pandora, while nobody from Japan wants it (an extreme example). But in fact sometimes in the discussion english people wanted accents for everyone else (not for themselves), while this poll might give a result that those guys do not want them.

You also need to link to examples on these, so that people can actually see what you're talking about. If you do not have an example layout (even from a non-Pandora keyboard), it would probably be best to simply not list it as an option. There are exceptions to that, but for example, the kana / kanji layout that you and I discussed, you should probably link to the wikipedia keyboard layout I showed you, or design one on the Pandora layout. It is cool, definitely, but you need something to give people as an example. Overall, slight rewording and maybe a little consolidation will go a long way on a poll.
ok, I linked that kana/kanji keyboard. There are eaxamples with cyryllic keyboards in the poll. So (including that link to wikipedia kana/kanji) all layouts are covered, I think.

11: Like with 2, if you don't have a picture with the actual layout, its likely best not to list it. (Unless for example, nobody has a layout with Ctl - Alt on the bottom left side of the keyboard, which is standard)

ok. So I removed answers (b) and (g) because nobody during whole discussion had ever submitted a solution like that. So nobody would ever want to vote for it. The (a) and (d) proposals have a lot of examples in the proposals. The (e) and (f) can be a remake of every (d) proposal. For example like this (I'm using my proposal, only because I have it right at hand, but really this Ctrl,Alt,Fn switching can be applied to any proposal):

Those two pictures above will not be a part of the poll, instead the Alt,Ctr,Fn can be defined by answering 2nd question (number 11), and applied to the winning keyboard.

PS: do you/anybody know if poll questions can contain URL links?

 

[craigix]

I insist that you all use the select button for something!

Also how have I ended up in a cottage in Penrith on holiday?

 

[AireTamStorm]

FN + Select = Flux Capacitor Toggle

 

[kagato]

but also for locale setting some key with deadkey function could be useful and no need of 'compose' so reduce pressing keys

for example for é , è , à, i could press [FN] ['][e] , [FN][`][e], [FN][`][a] and for ' : [FN]['][space]

Ah, of course. I was wondering how you'd get standard punctuation with deadkeys (short of double-pressing everything), but accent-space makes sense.
For sure, there should be a deadkey toggle for accent-heavy languages.

QUOTE
you have forget than ' " ` must be obtain by Fn key

No, I figured once you've pressed Compose, you're only reading accent characters from the next keypress (effectively, Fn is still active).
You can't generally compose two letters together. (Yeah, I know, there's æ... <_<)

I'm not sure how well cosurgi's double-fn keys would work with the Compose function...

QUOTE
but well we miss the 'Screenshot' key , someone has thinking about that and it will be great to have one

There you go craigix! Fn-Select can be screenshot

 

[greendots]

it'd be great to have a screenshot button that would work no matter whats on the screen... console session, FB, X

 

[kagato]

it'd be great to have a screenshot button that would work no matter whats on the screen... console session, FB, X

I'm assuming that's why some people want a dedicated key for it, so it can be handled at the system level. Which I guess would be cool.

A note on game buttons: After some thought on the matter, regardless of keyboard layout, I'd like to recommend that unmodified presses of ABXY not be directly mapped to key presses.
Being a gaming handheld first and foremost, menu navigation should mostly be done with the d-pad and buttons.
If, say, A is mapped straight to Home, this could mess with navigation rather than select the highlighted item.

A standard defined behaviour for the buttons would be good for applications to work with,
eg.

Accept/OK,

Back,

Cancel
but they shouldn't be regular keys.

(Of course, Fn-button can be mapped to any key you like.)

PS. A,B,X & Y should be smilies on this board!

 

[greendots]

One of the devs ...cant remember any more... said that kdrive, the gui, would close when a game is being played and then will be turned back on after the game closes. They also said that software would use different mappings of keys.

So when kdrive is on and you have your normal desktop you can have a,b,x,y be what ever the user wants it (mouse button / meta button etc). When a game is playing they would work like joypad buttons.

Of course if some one had a simple gui launcher then something like: Accept/OK, Back, Cancel, would work out great.

 

[kagato]

One of the devs ...cant remember any more... said that kdrive, the gui, would close when a game is being played and then will be turned back on after the game closes. They also said that software would use different mappings of keys.

True, but under kdrive is when it's most important. That's the environment under which most ported Linux apps will run, which will want to use the full keyboard; but it's also the standard environment for the Pandora, so all the built-in dialogs should be designed with the gamepad in mind.

Standalone games are responsible for their own button mapping, they can do what they like.