Getting closer...

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, Jan 23, 2018.

  1. JonnyH

    JonnyH Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    (No longer) PowerVR
    Nearly all SoCs can be tuned for a specific power use (and heat output) - they just clock lower. No need to create a new SoC for each power target when you can just wind the same silicon down for the same result.

    This same point should be kept in mind when considering any lower performance core due to power use or thermal limits - you really have to tune both for the same power output and compare performance then. While the omap5 is getting rather old now, being at least 2 major process nodes behind, a more modern "high power" A73 will likely beat the pants off an A55 (of a similar silicon node) in anything but the most limited scenario...

    That is to say, if the A55 is having to turbo the pants off itself to keep up, it may use more power than a larger core in the middle of it's performance curve.

    A lot of that will likely be i/o - PCIe signalling is /expensive/, if nothing is connected, or can be disconnected for large amounts of time, you should be able to completely disable the phy and save pretty much everything. Likely other busses can be disabled in similar ways (Assuming, of course, that the SoC implementation allows that - I would assume so, as it's just wasted power otherwise, and not really difficult to gate whole units in a coarse fashion like that..)

    A usb HDD can draw "up to" 900milliamps @5v (so 4.5w) itself, so most of the difference may not be the usb implementation in the SoC itself.

    And the rather high "standby" power use is likely a software issue - that's higher than many x86 laptops idle at - sceen on and everything....
     
    Ted, Djhg2000, Djoga'Ro and 1 other person like this.
  2. WolfpackN64

    WolfpackN64 WolfpackN64

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Ghent, Belgium
    Djhg2000 likes this.
  3. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    10,848
    Location:
    Somewhere off the coast of the EU
    What's your reasoning? Is it just because it needs a binary blob, as does the current PowerVR core in the OMAP5, or is is suboptimally performant in some way?
     
  4. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

    Joined:
    Oct 3, 2008
    Messages:
    6,022
    Name a GPU that is.

    Then name one that is ideal (has Linux drivers), has good 3D performance and has open source drivers.
     
  5. WolfpackN64

    WolfpackN64 WolfpackN64

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Ghent, Belgium
    Indeed, because Mali needs a binary blob. If you can have a GPU with a FOSS driver, go that route, and there are actually 2 options. Anything that has an Adreno GPU (Snapdragon) or a Vivante GPU (mostly i.MX). Both are well performing options.
     
    Djhg2000 likes this.
  6. Yuji Sakai

    Yuji Sakai Still Fresh

    Joined:
    Oct 10, 2016
    Messages:
    51
    maybe future low-energy ryzen?
     
  7. JonnyH

    JonnyH Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    (No longer) PowerVR
    If there's *anything* even close from AMD/Intel/Broadcom to the power envelope possible here I would strongly prefer those.

    I really dislike giving companies dollars when they haven't earned them - even if they have a "good" open source driver, I feel they're taking advantage of the community who are putting all the work in to reverse engineer and work on said drivers.

    I feel it's a bad precedent, saying "No need to bother helping with OSS, as some volunteers would put in their time anyway", and giving them money due to having a community-supported driver feels like encouraging bad behavior.
     
    Djhg2000, ashcloud and Silent-Hunter like this.
  8. kaprikawn

    kaprikawn Very Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 28, 2008
    Messages:
    368
    Location:
    UK
    That sounds a lot like you're willing to cut off your nose to spite your face. Options are already limited, beggars can't be choosers. If there's a FOSS driver available, even if it's built off the hard work of the community, I doubt a project of this size is going to sway the thinking of a big corporation.
     
    Djhg2000 likes this.
  9. WolfpackN64

    WolfpackN64 WolfpackN64

    Joined:
    Jan 11, 2018
    Messages:
    7
    Location:
    Ghent, Belgium
    Broadcom would be a good choice, especially once SoC's with VideoCore V become more widespread, but they're not easy to get I've heard.
     
  10. Djoga'Ro

    Djoga'Ro moonstruck

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2016
    Messages:
    829
    It's gratis SoCs now?
     
    Djhg2000 and rygD like this.
  11. Letalis Sonus

    Letalis Sonus Advanced Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    Are we talking about the same "Let's slap the same crappy ancient peripherals on every chip!" Broadcom? The Pi's chip series is nothing but a cashcow to them and even those ones are everything but available for purchase. Their SoC core business are semi-custom industrial chips, unless you're going to throw a bunch of money into their faces to get your own chip you won't get anywhere.
     
  12. JonnyH

    JonnyH Member

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2014
    Messages:
    85
    Location:
    (No longer) PowerVR
    From what I remember they actually pretty much shut down all their SoC development teams - I guess the pi is just enough to keep them limping along doing "least effort" refreshes with what IP they already have lying around (or pretty much complete but not yet in product when they did that), or can get off the shelf from someone else. I certainly wouldn't expect anything "new" from them.

    I guess it kinda depends on what you want out of a pyra. You want a more powerful device? They're available elsewhere now. You want a lower cost device? They're available elsewhere now. For me the real differentiator is the "openness" of the platform and community.
     
    Djhg2000 and Yori like this.
  13. Yori

    Yori Hi, how was your day?

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2016
    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Venice, Florida
    The Pyra is not even out the door and we are already talking about a new cpu!?!

    I'm hoping there will not be a new cpu board soon, I don't want my brand new Pyra becoming obsolete in a few months.

    And I'm hoping if we do get a new cpu soon it won't fracture the software & toss out Pyra hardware optimization out the window due to having two different types.
    We already are going to have to account that some Pyras will only have 2GB memory insted of 4GB when making software.
     
  14. Letalis Sonus

    Letalis Sonus Advanced Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2009
    Messages:
    1,040
    They are still doing new SoCs for automotive ECUs - but not the kind you'll read about in any media.
     
  15. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,342
    Location:
    Everywhere
    My guess is ED feels the same way. Additionally, there is a little less rush (and work) to make a new CPU board, so I expect it will take a while. Even once we get an upgrade I like to I imagine there will be a device that I can put the old one in. Maybe we can do a KS if there are enough sales and interest to get something from @hns. If he and his company are willing to do it I will probably be we rolling to buy it.
     
  16. matzesu

    matzesu Hardcore Member

    Joined:
    Jul 22, 2009
    Messages:
    2,913
    Location:
    Germany,, Saarland, at home
    One Big Advance of the Pyra over other Devices is, that you dont need to buy a whole new Unit if there is a new SOC, just order the New SOC, put your OLD SOC in the Anti Static Bag, where the new one came whit, and put the new one in..
    Mybe a Carry Case whit a Spot for CPU Board would be a great Addition to the Dragonbox Shop..

    Im also Hoping the Software Devs make the Software that runs on the Omap also for the Omap,

    I dont want to Change my SOC every Time i change the Software i wants to run..

    Like: The SNES Emulator needs the Omap Board, and the NES Emulator needs a diverent board..
     
    Djhg2000, Yori and CommanderB like this.
  17. PCXT

    PCXT Very Active Member

    Joined:
    Sep 14, 2016
    Messages:
    216
    I'm talking about making these parts like "pipes": With one "input" transfer condition on one part (usually elements faces) and "output" on another, everything else is not modelled at all. The problem I found is that modelling the other conductivity makes the conditions a bit more ideal than they really are and in many cases not including the flow there nicely compensates presence of heat from other parts of the system.
    But this is for metallurgy, not plastics. This works if you have a 1200*C-hot workpiece near your 400*C-hot complex, multi-part die and you really don't feel like writing radiation exchange to FE package :).
     
    levi likes this.
  18. elvissteinjr

    elvissteinjr Very Active Member

    Joined:
    Aug 23, 2013
    Messages:
    406
    Location:
    Germany
    I hope it's obvious enough how long developing the current CPU board took (actually is still taking) a long time. As much as you don't want your Pyra to be not outdated for as long as possible, the reality is that we're already on a pretty outdated SoC to begin with.
    With this thread you can also see that it's worth having SoC candidates discussed within the community. Side-grades are probably not worth developing.

    "Portability without sacrificing capability" was the slogan of the Pandora. The more powerful devices out there lack other capabilities or half-ass them.
    I value the community and the openness of the platform as a user. I don't see a closed-source GPU as a huge burden, personally, as long as it works.
    One does not necessarily exclude the other. We can still aim to have a powerful device to the extent possible.

    If I only wanted community and open platform, I'd already have that with my Pandora.
     
    Djhg2000, Yori and Djoga'Ro like this.
  19. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2003
    Messages:
    19,644
    Location:
    Ingolstadt
    Yep, we don't even HAVE a deal with any SoC manufacturer right now, so any CPU board is still FAAAAAR away, no worries about that.

    That said, RockChip can't really be used (horrible Linux support), AllWinner isn't really much better than the OMAP5 (if it even is).

    So yeah... nothing serious at the moment.

    Some quick update:
    My contact in Greece did have the time to check on FormAction and the moulds yesterday. He inspected them thoroughly and all discussed changes have been implemented.
    They have a production run planned next week and he hopes to find the time to pay them a visit on Monday and send me some pictures.
     
    Djhg2000, jeeks, PowerGod and 17 others like this.
  20. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2014
    Messages:
    7,342
    Location:
    Everywhere
    Then after you do a quick check once you get them, a clear run, right?
     
    Djhg2000, Djoga'Ro and directive0 like this.

Share This Page

Loading...