An update of the waiting game

Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, May 3, 2018.

  1. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    The waiting game still continues, but I've got a quick but tasty update for you :)

    Global Components have populated 24 of the new CPU boards yesterday.
    They're still fully untested (GC can't test them), but they're finished and Nikolaus should receive them soon and test them.

    Let's cross all fingers that the 4GB RAM will work without any issues :D

    Regarding the mainboards:
    It seems like electroinc production is really increasing. The normal wait time of 4 weeks for the bare PCB mainboard has been increased to 8 weeks - and it was the same with multiple companies (GC checked that).
    They're all overloaded right now, which increases the production time. Of course, Chinese companies are ALWAYS giving other chinese companies priority in production... but we're not chinese.
    Well, they should arrive sometime in May, and together with the CPU board, we can then build final units :)

    Regarding the case:
    All changes have been implemented. They're currently updating the 3D files (the ones I have are very old) and will produce a new set which should be finished next week - and hopefully, it's REALLY the final one now.

    Next step: Waiting for the case to arrive here and for the mainboards.

    So much for the quick news update.
    Skin-nl, javaJake, Djhg2000 and 43 others like this.
  2. ptitSeb

    ptitSeb Serial Porter

    Aug 15, 2012
    France, near Lyon
    Thanks for the update! Sounds good, new tasty CPU board :cool: !
  3. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    You'll get that one into your unit. The optimized power circuit could mean that it produces less heat.
    So once I get my hands on a working CPU board, I'll update your Pyra with the cooling and the new board and finally send it back to you (you're the best one when it comes to testing heat dissipation in real life ;))
    Kolbász, javaJake, FBnil and 11 others like this.
  4. daveshah

    daveshah Still Fresh

    Aug 17, 2008
    8 weeks - I wonder what this is? Sounds to me like GC are in on the joke now...
    javaJake, FBnil and dfkman like this.
  5. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    I doubt that.
    What would they gain from that? They have all the parts and machines, they don't produce the bare PCBs themselves.
    That wouldn't even make sense.

    I've heard similar complaints from other companies I'm working with who produce their own stuff.

    Simple PCBs (two- or four-layer, etc.) are not affected, just the more complex one (I think the Pyra mainboard is 6-layer as well, but hns knows).

    It's easy to get sample PCBs in Germany within 2 - 3 weeks - however, we are in a state where we need the PCBs from the same company that does the mass production PCBs, otherwise, it could be that Wifi, etc. won't work properly.
    FBnil, Lightkey, Yori and 2 others like this.
  6. rygD

    rygD Nihilistic Mystic

    Feb 28, 2014
    So if it takes Two Months to get main boards made, is there also an increase in the time it takes to get the others? If you purchase for mass production are these timelines going to remain the same?

    I was kinda hoping we might get within the real Two Month window soonish.
  7. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    No, there's a huge difference:
    When producing a PCB the first time, it gets analyzed and there are a few questions for the designer. The more complex they are, the longer the analysis takes.

    Here's an example (only a few questions we received):

    As shown, the gap between IC PADs is too tight (5.9-6.2mil only) to keep the solder mask dam .
    A>Remove the SM dam between pads which space is below 7.87mil.
    B>Cutting PAD 1mil per side to keep the soldermask dam.

    Question 1.png Question 1b.png

    As shown, NPTH is located on the trace, it will cause the exposed copper.
    A>Accept the exposure copper and burr on the edge of hole.
    B>Shave the copper 0.2mm to avoid the coppper exposure.

    Question 2.png

    These are only two examples of the many questions we received.
    Some need some time to think over, some are easily and quickly answered.

    They need to be answered thoroughly, as any mistake could lead to problems in the production later.

    These questions are ONLY needed the first time. They are not needed for reproductions. And even if something is changed, most of the answers won't be affected by that (unless the change you made is in that area).

    Most PCB production companies state a BUILD time of around 15 - 20 workdays for a 6 layer PCB non-express (workdays = Mo - Fr), so that's 3 - 4 weeks.
    BUILD time - that means: Once they start. (It's a good trick to make things appear faster than they will take in reality). The analysis for new PCBs and the time for the queue before they start building yours is not included there :)
    javaJake, Djhg2000, szr and 12 others like this.
  8. Xcl4m4t10n

    Xcl4m4t10n Advanced Member

    Dec 18, 2009
    September 2018.
  9. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

    Mar 4, 2003
    Okay, just a quick update regarding the leadtime of the PCB production (as I asked Global Components for the reason):

    GC add 2 weeks themselves to the leadtime (just to be sure the PCBs are there when production is planned), so the leadtime from the manufacturer is 6 weeks.

    They also have access to faster production companies - but the company they're working with for the Pyra PCBs is one that has a HIGH quality (and very little failure rate) - which is also the reason they're overloaded (good quality is more and more important).

    So it's either quality or speed.

    Additionally, the Pyra mainboard is VERY complex (because we cramp so many parts on so little space).

    Just compare the Pyra mainboard to the GPD Win mainboard. The GPD Win mainboard almost looks like a wasteland in comparison. Fewer parts on bigger space.

    This - of course - makes the analysis more complex which just takes more time.

    I hope that explains things a bit :)
  10. pimaster

    pimaster Member

    Oct 19, 2015
    Thanks for the update. The delay on the mainboard hurts but knowing that there is a known delay feels so good.

    Will you be able to do a quick test with the new CPU boards on older main boards?
    I know it isn't the sort of test you want to do before green lighting the mass production but I think a lot of us are waiting to hear that 4GB of ram and 1.5Ghz are looking good.

    I feel pedantic asking but I don't understand what this means.
    Do they physically change the mold by hand, then put the changes back into 3D files?
    Have they updated their mold and 3D files but are passing them back to you?
    They have understood the changes that are required and need to update the 3D files and mold?
    Asking because I'm very interested in manufacturing and noticing that communication and version control are often overlooked.
  11. lordbobjones

    lordbobjones Member

    Jul 8, 2010
    Thank you for the update and for your continued work! Looking forward!!!
  12. zonova

    zonova Member

    May 8, 2012
    Those questions you posted as examples of what you have to think about sounded very complicated, I can see why this takes so much time. Good luck and remember to get rest when you can! You deserve it
    FBnil and levi like this.
  13. Caine

    Caine Hardcore Member

    Jun 5, 2008
    While I don't like the news itself, I am glad there is an update.
    Yori and Grench like this.
  14. Farox

    Farox Certified Guru

    Jan 8, 2009
    Thanks for the updated news.
    I'm crossing the fingers hoping for a working board with 4GB Ram.
    AnimatedFreak and Silent-Hunter like this.
  15. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

    Oct 3, 2008
    Does this:
    Plus this:
    and assuming all goes well with the cases, boards, testing and volcanoes...
    mean that prototypes -might- -maybe- shipping in ~ 2 Months?

    I figure that the real production two month 'countdown' window will likely start around 2 weeks after prototypes ship - if/when the prototypes work right and have a 'few miles' on them.
    Silent-Hunter likes this.
  16. Jumpman

    Jumpman Advanced Member

    May 20, 2006
    Sin City
    The quality VS. qty sounds about right, but no way to call BS or not until they produce said items, and we see how well they where actually made.

    So for now, the waiting game continues and ONLY 2 MORE MONTHS:p

    ckblackm, Yori, error and 1 other person like this.
  17. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

    Oct 6, 2008
    Somewhere off the coast of the EU
    It feels like it was longer, but I think this CPU board currently nearing testing is the one designed in December last year. 4 months for a board to be produced, even one with as many layers as this, is quite long but it could easily be worse. And Form Action seem to be playing ball which is good to hear.
  18. fusion_power

    fusion_power Advanced Member

    Dec 11, 2006
    Crazy idea: don't cramp so many parts on so little space in general. ;) Would also be possible that you don't need so many prototypes in theory and have the device out sooner = profit.
    Pyra is just to complex for such a "indie device" imho. I bet big companies would have been failed long ago or denied it right from the start. So respect that you are still on it. But it does not sound like it will be released anytime in this century. You spent to much time with adjusting, re-adjusting re-re adjusting and prototyping. The case alone has so many changes, noi wonder the greek company gave up.

    Net time (if any): more pre planing and less tinkering afterwards PLEASE. You don't want to become the Berlin BER Airport of the handheld devices. ^^"
    ThinkPad likes this.
  19. NOP

    NOP Member

    May 2, 2017
    i do not care that much how long it takes, as long as it works properly.
    As it looks like I will get my win2 sometime THIS month (or early next month), so I am distracted for a while.

    Also if i would get the Pyra right after the win, then the win would not see much use, and end up in the drawer even faster :(.
  20. TrashyMG

    TrashyMG Sarcasm Dispenser Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2010
    @fusion_power Hindsight lecturing doesn't really help at all, in fact just makes you look like a jerk talking down to someone doing their best to get something accomplished...
    gunrock, Djhg2000, goiken and 11 others like this.

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