Release First pictures of "final", epoxy-coated keymat

[pelrun]

These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose.Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

No, they are absolutely in the right spot - consider the use cases. You'll want to press Ctrl/Alt plus another key, and that's a real pain if you're forced to jam one thumb against one side of the keyboard and reach the other thumb all the way across. With them in the middle you can use either thumb to hit Ctrl/Alt depending on which thumb can reach the other key most comfortably. Sticky keys sounds like a good idea but it is still more inconvienient than this.

And claiming that all the GPIO keys are by design game buttons only is a bit precious - they're on GPIO's specifically because the gaming use case requires it, and ctrl/alt are there because the keyboard use case requires it - they're equally important.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

 

[JayFoxRox]

I think the labels are perfectly fine for ctrl alt and I also think they are in an ok spot - might not be the best reachable position but still ok and completly fine for longer key-combos.
It would suck to forget which is ctrl and which is alt and therefore labeling makes sense - same goes for start / select and the way the label is done is doesn't even look overloaded (atleast not from the photos).

 

[God Ginrai]

You guys still need to take into account the fact that even if they aren't on GPIOs (if they're on the keyboard matrix), they'll be sticky keys. You will have no need to hold them down. I totally agree with GodGinrai that if the Start/Select buttons are mapped to Ctrl/Alt, they shouldn't be labelled as such. These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose. I strongly believe that they should be labeled simply "Start" and "Select", and a user's manual would let people know that they function as Ctrl/Alt in text-entry mode. Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

I know I plan to map it to the shoulders.

You guys still need to take into account the fact that even if they aren't on GPIOs (if they're on the keyboard matrix), they'll be sticky keys. You will have no need to hold them down. I totally agree with GodGinrai that if the Start/Select buttons are mapped to Ctrl/Alt, they shouldn't be labelled as such. These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose. I strongly believe that they should be labeled simply "Start" and "Select", and a user's manual would let people know that they function as Ctrl/Alt in text-entry mode. Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

That don't make much sense to me.
The Pandora is like a mini computer with gaming buttons and the Linux distro running on it will see the buttons as ctrl and alt. In Pandora-specific emulators ctrl and alt will then be (standard) mapped as select and start. The buttons will only be recognized as select and start by unofficial (not created by OP team) programs (emulators and such), the OS will still see them as ctrl and alt.
Am I missing something?

You are missing the fact that the Pandora is a gaming handheld first and foremost, a miniature computer second.

Btw, if you don't like the label, cover it with a permanent marker or something.

I would like to refrain from defacing my Pandora, thank you very much.

But if ppl are thinking of remapping keys, they will probably thinking of ways of re-labelling the keys anyway, so it shouldn't really matter what is on the keys anyway.

That way is fine if you plan on remapping all the keys, because then you would need new labels for all of them, and it would be consistent. But if you only plan on remapping two to four keys or buttons, then it will look bad, because there will be inconsistencies between those buttons' labelling and the rest of the handheld's. That would just be bad, IMHO

These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose.Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

No, they are absolutely in the right spot - consider the use cases. You'll want to press Ctrl/Alt plus another key, and that's a real pain if you're forced to jam one thumb against one side of the keyboard and reach the other thumb all the way across.

I find having Ctrll and Alt in the center as inconvenient. If you had them on the shoulders, then they would be even easier to press than stretching one of your thumbs all the way to the center. Also, what if you need to press Ctrl + Alt + some other letter? Then you're pretty much boned with this center method where you must use your thumbs. With the Ctrl and Alt on the shoulders, then your thumbs are free to press the other buttons.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

Wrong, it'll bug the fuck out of me constantly. And it will confuse people who are using my Pandora, because Ctrl and Alt will be on the shoulders for mine.

-God Ginrai

 

[gp2.eXe]

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

Wrong, it'll bug the fuck out of me constantly. And it will confuse people who are using my Pandora, because Ctrl and Alt will be on the shoulders for mine.

-God Ginrai

What!? You're gonna let other people use your Pandora!? Oh, how lowly we've fallen... -_-

 

[pelrun]

I find having Ctrll and Alt in the center as inconvenient. If you had them on the shoulders, then they would be even easier to press than stretching one of your thumbs all the way to the center. Also, what if you need to press Ctrl + Alt + some other letter? Then you're pretty much boned with this center method where you must use your thumbs. With the Ctrl and Alt on the shoulders, then your thumbs are free to press the other buttons.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

Wrong, it'll bug the fuck out of me constantly. And it will confuse people who are using my Pandora, because Ctrl and Alt will be on the shoulders for mine.

How can you possibly be so sure (and continue to bitch and bitch and bitch) when you haven't even held it in your hands yet? I've used a Zaurus for years, which has multiple keyboard oddities, and they haven't caused me any trouble. Fine, remap it. Use a damn marker to cover the label. And STILL end up needing to explain to the people you lend your pandora to how to use it. "Oh! Was it left for control or was it right? I keep getting them mixed up!"

 

[Vorporeal]

These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose.Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

No, they are absolutely in the right spot - consider the use cases. You'll want to press Ctrl/Alt plus another key, and that's a real pain if you're forced to jam one thumb against one side of the keyboard and reach the other thumb all the way across. With them in the middle you can use either thumb to hit Ctrl/Alt depending on which thumb can reach the other key most comfortably. Sticky keys sounds like a good idea but it is still more inconvienient than this.

And claiming that all the GPIO keys are by design game buttons only is a bit precious - they're on GPIO's specifically because the gaming use case requires it, and ctrl/alt are there because the keyboard use case requires it - they're equally important.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

First, I never said that the GPIO keys should be game buttons ONLY. I said that their first use is as game buttons. Second, I can't see ANY way that sticky keys are LESS convenient than having to hold the buttons. They can only be MORE convenient. You push them, and then you don't have to worry about holding them down when you're pressing down whatever other key you want to use as a modifier. Shift is implemented as a sticky key for EXACTLY that reason.

Also, I probably will still care even after 5 minutes. In my opinion, Ctrl and Alt seemed thrown on the keys, pushing off Start and Select to the side. I think it's a bit cramped, and I'd MUCH prefer the look of just one set being on there, and if that was the case, it really should be Start/Select.

How can you possibly be so sure (and continue to bitch and bitch and bitch) when you haven't even held it in your hands yet? I've used a Zaurus for years, which has multiple keyboard oddities, and they haven't caused me any trouble. Fine, remap it. Use a damn marker to cover the label. And STILL end up needing to explain to the people you lend your pandora to how to use it. "Oh! Was it left for control or was it right? I keep getting them mixed up!"

Alright, this is so dumb. YOU CAN'T COVER THE LABEL. There is a layer of epoxy over it. You can't just permanent marker the epoxy and expect it to look anywhere remotely close to decent, not to mention that it still won't really cover the label. This is NOT a solution.

 

[ilovevideogames408]

Why bitch over something so small <_< Look at the broad picture..

Seller - "Hey check this out, I'm selling a little mini- gaming laptop with gaming controlls that can play PS1 games fullspeed and runs linux"
Buyer - "Nah, it's crappy. The Y is to high and two buttons aren't labeled. I'd rather buy a DS, because when people borrow it, they'll know how to use it"

 

[lulzfish]

Well, it's not a big deal to line up the letters, I'm sure they're already working on that.
But it is kind of pretentious of us to care so much about how the Ctrl / Alt buttons are labelled. It's not going to make them work any differently.

There's no Eject CD button!

 

[God Ginrai]

I find having Ctrll and Alt in the center as inconvenient. If you had them on the shoulders, then they would be even easier to press than stretching one of your thumbs all the way to the center. Also, what if you need to press Ctrl + Alt + some other letter? Then you're pretty much boned with this center method where you must use your thumbs. With the Ctrl and Alt on the shoulders, then your thumbs are free to press the other buttons.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

Wrong, it'll bug the fuck out of me constantly. And it will confuse people who are using my Pandora, because Ctrl and Alt will be on the shoulders for mine.

How can you possibly be so sure (and continue to bitch and bitch and bitch) when you haven't even held it in your hands yet? I've used a Zaurus for years, which has multiple keyboard oddities, and they haven't caused me any trouble. Fine, remap it. Use a damn marker to cover the label. And STILL end up needing to explain to the people you lend your pandora to how to use it. "Oh! Was it left for control or was it right? I keep getting them mixed up!"

Because I have plenty of systems where such things have bothered me, and I'm also easily bothered when something says something it doesn't do, which will be exactly the case on my Pandora.

These buttons are, first and foremost, game buttons (hence them being put on GPIOs), and their secondary purpose is as Ctrl/Alt. Even if they are used more as Ctrl/Alt, this is not their original purpose.Then again, maybe Ctrl/Alt should be mapped to somewhere else altogether. (Game buttons?)

No, they are absolutely in the right spot - consider the use cases. You'll want to press Ctrl/Alt plus another key, and that's a real pain if you're forced to jam one thumb against one side of the keyboard and reach the other thumb all the way across. With them in the middle you can use either thumb to hit Ctrl/Alt depending on which thumb can reach the other key most comfortably. Sticky keys sounds like a good idea but it is still more inconvienient than this.

And claiming that all the GPIO keys are by design game buttons only is a bit precious - they're on GPIO's specifically because the gaming use case requires it, and ctrl/alt are there because the keyboard use case requires it - they're equally important.

And all this complaining is over a *label*! After 5 minutes of actually using the pandora you aren't going to care.

First, I never said that the GPIO keys should be game buttons ONLY. I said that their first use is as game buttons. Second, I can't see ANY way that sticky keys are LESS convenient than having to hold the buttons. They can only be MORE convenient. You push them, and then you don't have to worry about holding them down when you're pressing down whatever other key you want to use as a modifier. Shift is implemented as a sticky key for EXACTLY that reason.

Also, I probably will still care even after 5 minutes. In my opinion, Ctrl and Alt seemed thrown on the keys, pushing off Start and Select to the side. I think it's a bit cramped, and I'd MUCH prefer the look of just one set being on there, and if that was the case, it really should be Start/Select.

How can you possibly be so sure (and continue to bitch and bitch and bitch) when you haven't even held it in your hands yet? I've used a Zaurus for years, which has multiple keyboard oddities, and they haven't caused me any trouble. Fine, remap it. Use a damn marker to cover the label. And STILL end up needing to explain to the people you lend your pandora to how to use it. "Oh! Was it left for control or was it right? I keep getting them mixed up!"

Alright, this is so dumb. YOU CAN'T COVER THE LABEL. There is a layer of epoxy over it. You can't just permanent marker the epoxy and expect it to look anywhere remotely close to decent, not to mention that it still won't really cover the label. This is NOT a solution.

Agreed.

But it is kind of pretentious of us to care so much about how the Ctrl / Alt buttons are labelled. It's not going to make them work any differently.

Not when it says something that it does something that it doesn't do, which will be exactly the case with my Pandora, and many other people's. (I remember that a lot of people were adamant about Ctrl and Alt at places other than Start and Select in the mapping, and I'm sure that many of them will remap as soon as they get their Pandoras)

-God Ginrai

 

[Vorporeal]

Something that is so user-preference-dependent as the location of Ctrl and Alt should keep them from being labelled on the keypad. Their use as Start and Select is a given, and it's HIGHLY unlikely that anyone will want to remap them, hence they should be labelled as such. It's not like you're going to label whatever is mapped to the game buttons, analog sticks, or L/R as things like that are easily (and often) remapped.

 

[BackAssward]

I have to say this: It is highly self centered and egotistic to want the standard keymat changed because of what re-mapping you might do. No amount of whining or re-posting the same complaint will change that it is a personal desire that should not change the product for all users. The ctrl/alt placement is the standard, and will stay mapped that way for the majority. That *is* what those buttons do in the OS, to say it isn't is disingenuous. Changing your mappings does not change the default, and keymaps are printed to the default... not what you think is best for you. We also need the printing on there to remember which is which.

Simply put, to expect a change in the wording of the keymat (for everyone), based solely on what is best for you, is arrogance to the highest level. I can't believe anyone would suggest doing so was a reasonable request. Also, not very 'community' minded, changing everyone's Pandora for what is best for *you* is the most selfish thing I can think off.

The vocal minority is still the minority, we've had what 2 maybe 3 people say they want to remap them out of 4000 pre-orders (and a number of enthusiasts waiting for the second batch)? Hell, I want them to say only ctrl/alt, since I plan on moving select and start... so can I repost a bunch of times that sentiment and think everyone should just go along with me? Since on *my* pandora, those keys don't do select/start, to have them printed that way is plain wrong. I want to change everyone's Pandora to suit my desires/configuration.

Edit: Before I get the "but but but, they are gaming buttons, so I am justified in my expectation" retort. No, they are multi-purpose buttons. They *were* gaming buttons at first, but as the product design has evolved, their purpose went from gaming to gaming & OS (remember, originally it wasn't even going to have a full OS, but it's design evolved there too). So, don't try that false justification.

You don't like it? Suck it up, order a custom one out of your own pocket... don't expect to change everyone's Pandora just so your arbitrary design specs are met. It is better for the majority to have the printing than not, so arguments the contrary are moot.

 

[Vorporeal]

I feel like, from the PAGES upon PAGES of keyboard layout discussion, there are going to be PLENTY of people who are unhappy with the mapping of modifier keys like Alt/Ctrl, AltGr/Compose (if included somewhere), and possibly even frequently used keys like Tab. I'm not saying that it should change just because I want it to, I'm saying that the fact that there was so much unrest and debate about the locations of Ctrl/Alt means that they shouldn't be printed on the keys, to allow for remapping "flexibility".

(I don't see this as arrogance in any way. If you disagree, I'm sorry.)

 

[BackAssward]

I feel like, from the PAGES upon PAGES of keyboard layout discussion, there are going to be PLENTY of people who are unhappy with the mapping of modifier keys like Alt/Ctrl, AltGr/Compose (if included somewhere), and possibly even frequently used keys like Tab. I'm not saying that it should change just because I want it to, I'm saying that the fact that there was so much unrest and debate about the locations of Ctrl/Alt means that they shouldn't be printed on the keys, to allow for remapping "flexibility".

(I don't see this as arrogance in any way. If you disagree, I'm sorry.)

Well, this thread is only three pages long, and (relatively) very few posters care about the ctrl/alt printing. Certainly not the majority of the community nor buyers. One could arbitrarily argue that any specific printing shouldn't be there, or the printings modified. So we either stick with what we have, do a total redesign for all the people who think some small change is needed, or have a keymap with no printing. Changing the keymap for a small amount of people and two arbitrary changes, would be wrong, if they don't do everyones changes. Of course, there are conflicting desires and you cant make everyone happy. = Unmanageable cluster fuck.

Why are your specific keymap changes more important than what other people want changed? If you think they are, then you are arrogant. If you agree they aren't, then it's either a complete redesign or no printing at all... or we stick with what we have.

It's all or nothing, if *only* your changes should be done and not other people's changes, then yes, yes you are unmitigatedly self serving (and arrogant).

 

[Pleng]

I feel like, from the PAGES upon PAGES of keyboard layout discussion, there are going to be PLENTY of people who are unhappy with the mapping of modifier keys like Alt/Ctrl, AltGr/Compose (if included somewhere), and possibly even frequently used keys like Tab. I'm not saying that it should change just because I want it to, I'm saying that the fact that there was so much unrest and debate about the locations of Ctrl/Alt means that they shouldn't be printed on the keys, to allow for remapping "flexibility".

(I don't see this as arrogance in any way. If you disagree, I'm sorry.)

I think you'll find that the pages and pages are made out of a couple of people making the same point over and over again.

I vowed never to get involved in a keyboard debate but... I simply can't see the logic in saying 'you should not label ctrl and alt, and expect people to remember them. labeling them with both functions is confusing'.

Labeling them with both functions: It's clear which 2 functions the buttons perform
Labeling them with only 1 function: 1st time users will be hunting around thinking 'where's control and alt', and after consulting the manual or the internet will need to remember which way around they are. Remember a lot of software will be straight-ports of linux apps which rely on these buttons (firefox, anyone?)

 

[bzar]

I, for one don't want to start a quest for secret hidden meanings of buttons. If a button does something it should be labeled accordingly (to an extent of course). If a program tells me to press ctrl-c I don't want to start guessing which button is control. if someone isn't happy with the layout, they can change it, but the keymats should reflect the standard.

 

[BackAssward]

Good post guys, my point exactly. (of which they purport to being not true, that more people believe as they do, so having people post to the contrary is welcome).

 

[Vorporeal]

Whatever. It just looks awkward having the two squeezed onto the button like that. Ideally, one could be printed on the button and the other on the case itself, but that's obviously not feasible.

 

[gp32rich]

I think they look sweet!

I could care less what each button does. I'll learn whatever/whereever.
In fact I'd take a blank mat, CNC case and shoe-horn the bits in, just so I can have my panda.


I think I see *MY* keymat there :twisted: ^_^

 

[God Ginrai]

We also need the printing on there to remember which is which.

Taking off two labels doesn't suddenly turn the keymat into a Das Keyboard. If you can't remember where two buttons are, then how the hell are you going to remember keyboard shortcuts that use the damn buttons?

I feel like, from the PAGES upon PAGES of keyboard layout discussion, there are going to be PLENTY of people who are unhappy with the mapping of modifier keys like Alt/Ctrl, AltGr/Compose (if included somewhere), and possibly even frequently used keys like Tab. I'm not saying that it should change just because I want it to, I'm saying that the fact that there was so much unrest and debate about the locations of Ctrl/Alt means that they shouldn't be printed on the keys, to allow for remapping "flexibility".

(I don't see this as arrogance in any way. If you disagree, I'm sorry.)

I think you'll find that the pages and pages are made out of a couple of people making the same point over and over again.

I vowed never to get involved in a keyboard debate but... I simply can't see the logic in saying 'you should not label ctrl and alt, and expect people to remember them. labeling them with both functions is confusing'.

Labeling them with both functions: It's clear which 2 functions the buttons perform
Labeling them with only 1 function: 1st time users will be hunting around thinking 'where's control and alt', and after consulting the manual or the internet will need to remember which way around they are. Remember a lot of software will be straight-ports of linux apps which rely on these buttons (firefox, anyone?)

I believe that by "PAGES" Vorporeal was not referring to just this one topic, but all the many topics about the keymat that kept cropping up back at GP32X as well, such as many of the topics created by cosurgi.

Also, I never said that the fact that it has two functions was the confusing part. It is the fact that because the software can have the keys remapped, many systems will not use that for Ctrl and Alt. Therefore it will confuse other people, because it says it does something that it in fact does not do.

I, for one don't want to start a quest for secret hidden meanings of buttons. If a button does something it should be labeled accordingly (to an extent of course). If a program tells me to press ctrl-c I don't want to start guessing which button is control. if someone isn't happy with the layout, they can change it, but the keymats should reflect the standard.

If you can't remember where control is. How are you ever going to remember what control-c DOES? If you can't remember where one button is, then you sure as hell shouldn't be able to remember any sort of keyboard combination that isn't printed onscreen at all times during program operation.

-God Ginrai

 

[bzar]

I, for one don't want to start a quest for secret hidden meanings of buttons. If a button does something it should be labeled accordingly (to an extent of course). If a program tells me to press ctrl-c I don't want to start guessing which button is control. if someone isn't happy with the layout, they can change it, but the keymats should reflect the standard.

If you can't remember where control is. How are you ever going to remember what control-c DOES? If you can't remember where one button is, then you sure as hell shouldn't be able to remember any sort of keyboard combination that isn't printed onscreen at all times during program operation.

-God Ginrai

I try not to get into these, but... are you serious? That has got to be the second biggest strawman I've seen in a while (I also see your hyperbole and raise with a meiosis).

Okay, now that I've got that out of my system:
I think things should be labeled because of clarity, not because I couldn't remember them. It's a matter of convienience. In addition, I believe it to be convienient for most people. Don't try to argue your point by belittling those opposed to your ideas. If your opinions have enough support they might get you somewhere, but trying to counter every opposing opinion especially with comments like this doesn't help. Make your points and let others have their opinions. We are not your enemies, you know. -_-