A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[webcraaawler]

The bottom line is that more Pandora's need to be sold in order for the current situation to be rectified. None of this is really helping anyone, if I was a potential customer coming to the boards for the first time I'd run a mile after reading this thread.


What's done is done and no amount of arguing and trying to place blame is going to change that. I really hope Craig and ED can sit down and work through their differences. With everything this project has had to go through to get this far, it would be a crying shame to see it end like this.


Just remember that this project is far more than just the hardware, it's about the community too.

+1


And Timstertoo's offer sounds pretty awesome. (You own a bar ... cool!! )


And I'd be willing to donate some money to your train/flight/gas/time/hotel room for each of you/etc, for you two to meet and figure things out. Or at least to agree that things aren't going to work and to plan a separation process that hopefully keeps OP going.


And would be nice to share whatever strategy you guys decide on.


Cheers everyone.

 

[darkborn]

Thanks ED. Please, could you organize some private OPT members videoconferencing (by e.g. g+ hangout)? It's cheaper and faster then trip to Netherlands (which is not excluded).

This is a shame what we don't need is more bad press.

Just not more hiding! This is what we don't need. It is the worst thing happened!

 

[darkborn]

Personally I had no luck talking to Craig in private, it's like talking to a brick wall, unless he needs something from you. It does seem to work in public though, at least I got answers.

Obviously, it is possible when there are more eyes involved. Could you (&OPT) handle some videoconferencing? There are urgent problems: Christmas sell, promotions, drop-shipping business model, alternative models... Just elect some moderator first.

 

[Dead1nside]

Then ask him why he refuses and disrupts my attempts to help him get those sales.


My hands are tied. I cannot send you what Ed does not send me.


As I've previously said, I've no idea what is going on anymore with Ed, but I find it hard to believe


he has not sold enough units in the last 3 months to cover those 70 he says I owe him money for.


And if he has not been able to sell enough units... we're back asking why he does not seem to be


interested in my help.


That's the loop and I'm not posting it again. I have absolutely zero control over events here or with


Pandora production/shipping, that has been made clear to me.


The tragic thing is I know I could have sold hundreds of units this month...


If you wish to petition OP Ltd for bankruptcy then that is your right, but it won't get you your Pandora.


There is nothing more for me to say, this argument serves no positive purpose. I really dislike that I'm having to do this at all but I just wanted to post something...

Craig, I thought it was outrageous when you asked for someone's order number to cancel their order, just because you didn't like the pointed things they were saying. Now I wish that was me - at least I'd have my money.


I don't want to take action against you, but I will if necessary - I would rather you take action to restore our faith. I don't feel you've treated this community with the same faith we have placed in you, and from the years of watching on the sidelines I think you are too prone to making rash decisions and acting alone.


You have absolutely no plan to tackle this backlog. You are showing absolutely no willing to do whatever it takes to resolve this, you appear on the brink of giving up. You seem to be shirking your responsibilities knowing that you can just wind up your company and start again, and won't be personally liable for your unfulfilled orders. I think that's very shameful, the attitude you have.


Why haven't you sought investors in the same way Michael has? It's not beyond you to do that. You need some more working capital so you can buy stock, and through those profits clear down the backlog. It's completely your own choice to do the Kickstarter as a separate company.


Look, Craig, I and many others have been invested in this for many years now... it's a bit shocking really. For your own self-respect, can you not understand what you have put people through? It's not your fault that some things went wrong, like CC -- nobody expected that -- but it is your fault when you bury your head in the sand and don't communicate and discuss with both your customers, and your business partners.


If sales are difficult it's because you've priced yourself out of the market. I'm pretty sure that was your decision: what was going to be a slight increase in the price became an astronomical one. I fully believe that many people who upgraded only did so to at least get something out of this mess, me included. Like I said, you've plunged a bunch of us into an even deeper problem, and state of limbo.

 

[rohezal]

Why haven't you sought investors in the same way Michael has? It's not beyond you to do that. You need some more working capital so you can buy stock, and through those profits clear down the backlog. It's completely your own choice to do the Kickstarter as a separate company.

I don't think he could find an investor this "easy", I think I remind he had already a credit for the production.

 

[calc84maniac]

If I were Craig (though that's not something I would wish upon myself), I would take up the dropshipping offer. I mean, that's the only way I can see that people would want to give Craig their business, because they'll know that 1) They'll get their order shipped quickly and 2) They'll be helping OpenPandora Ltd. get out of this awful mess.

 

[DreamWave]

If people really want to have a reliable estimate of the queue size, isn't it possible to set up some email address where every preorderer, refund-waiter and upgrader can send a snippet of the latest transaction, possibly order number, whatever with a clear heading of their situation.


Counting these emails (especially if they are prefixed) should be fairly easy.


It is hard for me to believe the people who have preordered are not reading this forum every now and then after so many years of waiting. I mean, I didn't read it for, like, the first two years, but after that... weekly at least, when not daily! I'm pretty sure the number would be pretty accurate pretty soon.


To me it also starts to sound like it would be better if only one company handles the orders until this mess is resolved. After this discussion it is also difficult to see how Craig could generate further sales, since he has no units and ED has them in stock and everyone knows that by now.


In summary it seems to me the big issue for Craig is probably "losing his baby" to others after working so hard for it. This is somewhat understandable, wasn't it so that initially investors were avoided just to avoid a situation like this...

 

[EvilDragon]

In summary it seems to me the big issue for Craig is probably "losing his baby" to others after working so hard for it. This is somewhat understandable, wasn't it so that initially investors were avoided just to avoid a situation like this...

The investors have nothing to do with it.


They don't have anything to decide, they just gave me a credit to be able to continue the production, hoping to get the money back (and maybe some profit) when the business plan works out as planned.


Without them, it would've been Game Over after the CC fiasco last year. No units, no money, no production facility, over 1000 remaining customers.


Of course it's not easy to give such a project out of your hands, but the other option would've been to file for bankruptcy over a year ago and that's it.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Pre-orders seem like a terrible idea at this point. No more pre-orders ever, again would be my suggestion. Before profit can be effectively made, perhaps merit should be restored. As in people need to trust that they will get what they paid for in a timely manner. Everything should be funneled into killing that god damned pre-order queue. Its a bllody huge weight around craig and edds necks. As long as it exists they are beholden to a certain portion of their customers.


I can genuinely understand the idea of craig having a vision that has to be done his way. I feel like this too about some stuff. But it may be possible to pick your visions. some stuff is your way and some stuff is a collaboration. Both are enjoyable in their own way. One never knows what a great ideas someone else will have.


Tricky business this. Ed organising pandora stuff and craig selling sounds sensible. i may get flamed, but dont sell what you don't yet have, because life has a way of doing the most unexpected shit, some good some bad. True compromise may be needed to resolve these problems. the pandora, be it 800mhz or 1ghz is good. It genuinely has merit. It just can't survive with hiccups. A lower 1gh price may be necessary. I have to admit that at gamescom the high price was a problem. peoples faces bore an expression that said i love this machine but no way am I paying 600 euros. Some people were genuinely mersmerised by the pandora though which is surely a testament to craigs vision. Nuff said.

 

[Yoyobuae]

Without Craig, the Pandora wouldn't exist. You need a lot of self-confidence and risk to start a project like this. I would never have started it.

He's pretty good selling things. He could sell some grandma a tablet for 1000 EUR which she would not even have a use for.

Selling and promotion Pandoras would be what we need now. It's ready, it can be shipped right away.

As long as everything runs as planned, he's awesome, as he can promote and sell stuff like hell. He's very very good with that.

He could've taken care of sales and marketing, whereas I could've taken care of the production here, keeping deadlines, handling the community, making sure the production will run as planned (that worked great with the Pandora 1 here in Germany).

This.


Craig, just start bringing in those sales. No one here would be opposed to a proper Pandora marketting campaign. New sales are what's really needed to recover from the current situation, after all.


Driving a successful marketting campaign would do far more to improve your reputation in the eyes of everyone than anything you can say here or anywhere. Actions speak stronger than words.


Take the dropshipping offer from ED, fix up your website according to ED's suggestions and start selling those Pandoras. It would be silly to let some smallish misunderstanding sabotage all your work so far.

 

[rohezal]

I approve Yoyobuae posts. Let's be positive and bring it to a happy end

 

[klapse]

If sales are difficult it's because you've priced yourself out of the market. I'm pretty sure that was your decision...

Err.. You have evidence that prices were set by Craig? Where?


Too expensive? Go back a few pages to see Ed's figures on number of sales needed to clear the pre-orders. Reducing the price of new units drastically increases the numbers needed to be sold to generate the income needed to pay for the remaining preorders. It has to come from somewhere. They cannot recoup their costs by selling units at 10 percent margin (which would still be too expensive for many people).

 

[Exophase]

I think he's referring to where ED said he wanted to sell 1GHz Pandoras for only a small premium and at a later date, not for $200 more than the 600MHz ones.


People are funny with prices. They have a pretty emotional reaction to different price points. You could make something 20% more expensive but lose 50% of your potential buyer base because you've crossed that threshold.

 

[kasp]

If sales are difficult it's because you've priced yourself out of the market. I'm pretty sure that was your decision...

Err.. You have evidence that prices were set by Craig? Where?


Too expensive? Go back a few pages to see Ed's figures on number of sales needed to clear the pre-orders. Reducing the price of new units drastically increases the numbers needed to be sold to generate the income needed to pay for the remaining preorders. It has to come from somewhere. They cannot recoup their costs by selling units at 10 percent margin (which would still be too expensive for many people).

The reason the price is still so high is because of all the preorders Craig took which he couldn't deliver on.


How would you feel pre-ordering a product and not only not getting it before anyone else that there was a significant reduction in price and you still don't have it in your hands?


The thing that gets me the most is ED has offered a huge helping hand to Craig offering to clear his backlog for free when new sales allow and he has the money to do so, sent him 70 units without receiving any money. Yet Craig has the Audacity to say the things he has.


Here is a news flash Craig instead of sending you any pre orders and clearing your backlog at all ED could just be keeping the money for himself and making his investors happy.You are paying nothing for those units, he has absolutely no responsibility to your company and has been extraordinarily generous. So how about showing some gratitude rather than acting like a spoiled child having a tantrum. This project would have tanked without ED. I know I would have bailed long ago if it wasn't for ED and I am sure many others are the same way

 

[klapse]

I think he's referring to where ED said he wanted to sell 1GHz Pandoras for only a small premium and at a later date, not for $200 more than the 600MHz ones.

Ah, thanks.

People are funny with prices. They have a pretty emotional reaction to different price points. You could make something 20% more expensive but lose 50% of your potential buyer base because you've crossed that threshold.

Yes, and it takes market research to determine those points. Lacking that all we have is gut feelings and guesstimates. The invariant is that production cost already prices the unit out of the average gamers' range.


Perhaps a poll: "what would you pay for a 1Ghz pandora if you didn't/don't already have a pandora?" would be informative?

 

[andmaz777]

Have to agree, Craig's response was in a word disgusting end of and let's move on.

 

[Exophase]

Yes, and it takes market research to determine those points. Lacking that all we have is gut feelings and guesstimates. The invariant is that production cost already prices the unit out of the average gamers' range.
Perhaps a poll: "what would you pay for a 1Ghz pandora if you didn't/don't already have a pandora?" would be informative?

We did have a poll that showed that a lot of people won't buy a Pandora 2 at $700. IIRC it was about 2/3rds of voters. People would probably be even less willing to shell out for the upgraded Pandora..

 

[SoleGrave]

I knew this fucking blame game bullshit was gonna start. Im cross upgrading to Ed when I get the funds. Never knowing what Craig's numbers were for either batch has burned me long enough.

 

[palstyo]

What makes you think he isn't thinking? I don't have any inside information, but the fact is that ultimately, CC caused most of this mess. It's been confirmed mulitple times that they failed to meet the bare minimum requirements on things like the oxidation issue.


I don't really know what's going on internally, but I was personally surprised that Craig's customers weren't receiving units in proportion to the open orders after that cash infusion via the investment plan. I may well have misunderstood it, and ED did explain it a bit when I asked a few months ago. But, the whole situation is confusing and I get the sense that there's some sort of major communications failure going on internally.

Point is word...


Don't explain to me previous situation coz. I know it.


Problem is he use our money for refund and now he did it again.


If he clear all 1GHz unit as he said I didn't say like that.

Then, why did you post what you posted? Anybody that's been following the progress for the last years should know that it was mostly the CC incompetence that caused the mess.

may be that time I was in the hospital and not much time that's why post from mobilephone but bit difficult enter many line( coz. my eyes is presbyopia


That's why may be make you misunderstanding what really want to say.


Or may be my poor English that is a reason..


Anyway original problem is based on CC thing in last Year but I'm talking about from June not in the past.


Just think about it in business scene can you do that like he did?


Well I can't do that , actually I own my company but I never ever did like that before and future even my company become Bankrupt.


When it happened he just explain the reason for(like a Self-defense) and no Apology.


So what I want to say I want him think more deeply before post especially what we(who trust him and pay 1GHz order/upgrade) feel when he post like that.


P.S.


Hopefully this is enough to explain.

 

[Binky]

Perhaps ED is being dishonest, uncommunicative, and a bad influence on the project. Given past experience, and the amount of detail ED provides, most of us would say its the other way round.


Please Craig: Prove us wrong


An ED-Craig balanced P2 could be wonderful - but seems a very fragile dream right now...