A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[crow_riot]

I think its pretty clear that there has just been, plain and simple, financial mismanagement. ED is owed money by Craig, and Craig just simply hasn't paid it. I gather that all ED wants is for Craig to pay his bills, and to stop spending money if he's not actually making money to pay those bills.

it seems that craig does not understand this point. he's owing money to ED and is wondering why he doesn't get any pandoras anymore.

 

[dmarschal]

After reading Craig's latest posts I'm dying to see the e:mail communication between Craig and CircuitCo from day one to the last one.

 

[vcoleiro1]

After reading Craig's latest posts I'm dying to see the e:mail communication between Craig and CircuitCo from day one to the last one.

+1

 

[Godmil]

it seems that craig does not understand this point. he's owing money to ED and is wondering why he doesn't get any pandoras anymore.

I guess Craig was thinking along the lines that instead of receiving the next 70 free pandoras (paid from other sales and donations), he'd just not get those and his debt would be cleared, then the next free ones should come afterwards.... however I think he was thinking that more pandoras had sold than actually have, as ED said that most sales were actually upgrades, which don't fund free pandoras.


Which kinda makes sense to me. We just need to sell more units for things to start flowing again.


Hey, I've got an idea for promotion... Giantbomb always do videos of the things they get sent in the mail... maybe if we could chip together to get them a pandora as a gift (rather than a loan of a review unity) that could get some good publicity.

 

[darkborn]

Feb 2009 for those who wonder...

Actually, I also did payment in Feb 2009. But it didn't work (Moneybookers), so I pull out money and after trying different ways to order it, finally make it by bank2bank payment (RBA>Barclays). So, officially, I got my Order number in early March 2009. I wanted to point out that things were sloppy from early beginnings.

 

[darkborn]

(I didn't see the movie, by the way, so I'm only judging based on the books)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terry_Pratchett%27s_Going_Postal

He is The One, definitively.

 

[WizardStan]

I think its pretty clear that there has just been, plain and simple, financial mismanagement. ED is owed money by Craig, and Craig just simply hasn't paid it. I gather that all ED wants is for Craig to pay his bills, and to stop spending money if he's not actually making money to pay those bills.

Is that true? EvilDragon says he does, Craig says he doesn't. One of them is wrong and I don't want to immediately jump one way or the other regardless of personal feelings. It's quite clear that there has been a major communication breakdown and regardless of who owes what absolutely nothing will happen unless that communication is restored.

 

[Link]

We don't like to give numbers on outstanding units because the numbers jump about due to returns, LCD cable faults, PCB failures etc.


The LCD cable/PCB failures were about 200 in the last 10 months which didn't do wonders for the list... however we suspect we're past the worst of that now.


Once this upgrade process is complete we will give a more recent number.

200 LCD cable/PCB failures? Where are these units? Did YOU fix them? Out of the hundreds of Global Components boards I've dealt with since February, I've had to send a half dozen Global Components boards back to Germany, others that I sent were CC. I think I'm on my 33rd RMA since June, and I've repaired some of the 1st batch units you've sent stateside.


How's that more recent number coming along?


I really think this is all the community would like to see. For REAL, not some magic number. Not excuses as to why you can't make it happen. When numbers jump about, it's called Algebra, but even then, the numbers still work. Might be high time to start checking the math before you tarnish what little credibility you have left with the community. Those people who you've taken money from since June are owed what is called an Apology. ED is owed what is called a Thank You, and you'll never understand that.


Lastly, you've really picked a great bridge to burn coming in here and talking trash about Michael. A year ago production was starting up in Germany, and you really had nothing to say, up until it started running again. Then you decided you want to be back on the Pandora train, as production got smoother, you became more involved again AFTER bowing out.


Personally, as an investor, in keeping the project alive, the money I invested was for Pandora production, it wasn't for Craig to not pay for 70 Pandoras and just put it on his tab (a number you refuse to disclose, which at this point is beyond scary, but its the only ace up your sleeve). The money wasn't to deliver you 800 Open Pandora in one fell swoop. It was for 4000 Pandora to be produced to recover the initial investment, getting you your 800(but didn't that number jump because you lost orders and then found them magically?), getting ED his 500, and still have money remaining to make another 1000 Pandora, so that perhaps those of us who invested, might see a return on our investment.


I really think that you are the one to blame for the 1GHz units that are in ques for your customers. All you had to do was keep half the money of new customers paying, and set aside the money from those who upgraded to perpetuate your getting another 70 units. Where's your tax refund? That mass email you sent was a joke, if you call that sales, then let's celebrate Chinese New Year now before the end of the world.


The part of supplying your pocket books with money means you need to meet the demand, which you can't do, so don't come in here preaching about your sales expertise. Sure you can sell, but you can't meet the demand. Meet the demand Craig, show us your Order #s.

 

[Timstertoo]

I think its pretty clear that there has just been, plain and simple, financial mismanagement. ED is owed money by Craig, and Craig just simply hasn't paid it. I gather that all ED wants is for Craig to pay his bills, and to stop spending money if he's not actually making money to pay those bills.

Is that true? EvilDragon says he does, Craig says he doesn't. One of them is wrong and I don't want to immediately jump one way or the other regardless of personal feelings. It's quite clear that there has been a major communication breakdown and regardless of who owes what absolutely nothing will happen unless that communication is restored.

WizardStan pretty much sums it up.


At this point it's irrelevant who did what in the past.


ED has made it clear how he will take care of matters if he has to face them alone. So the quesion is can Craig and ED patch things up in such a way that they can both do whatever they are good at and enjoy doing as much as possible and at the same time negate each others weaknesses as much as possible.


Best for everyone, even if it might not seem that way right now, is if they work together.


It seems assumptions have been made on both side and there is some bad blood. There is so much money involved that neither of them would do himself a favor by not trying to make this work for at least the duration of the remaining pre order mess.


Craig needs to be in an emotional state where it makes sense for him to promote the crap out of this product and get those sales going. And ED needs to feel confident that Craig doing that will lead to problems being solved, not problems being added.


I think a bit of facetime on neutral ground will do them a lot more good then mailing/pm'ing, even phoning each other or fighting it out on the forum. Put them together for a whole day in a place where neither of them can say they have to get back to work or feel stronger because it's home turf and just throw it all out there and work things out.


Even if working things out means that you come to a mutual conclusion that you need to each go your own way. Just try to do it in such a way then that both have the best start in the future.

 

[skeezix]

I should bloody hope that you don't intend to make the Pandora 2 under the same relationship. However I do hope that when the time comes you could consider an actual formal relationship; whether that takes the form of one being

People have been wanting this for years; Craig doesn't do contracts. He likes informal. Everyone else likes to know exactly w2here they stand

 

[FamilyGuy]

Those two guys, in a room with two chairs and a table, unlimited coffee, limited cognac, and this could be solved pretty fast.


It seems like a simple accumulation of misunderstandings, probably caused by communicating over e-mails and the stress inherent at facing financial problems...

 

[klapse]

At this point it's irrelevant who did what in the past.

It is? The only predictor of what will happen in the future is experience from the past.


Where did the money for the 70 units go? Where are the drop-ship sales? Where is the promotion work Craig promised? (One mass email?) Is there a single review or write-up of the pandora based on Craig's marketing work? (Maybe I just missed it.)


Ed is the one making brilliant promotional gameplay videos in addition to well, EVERYTHING else. It makes one ask what on earth Ed is getting out of the relationship.


On a side note, it would help if those with custom made TV-Out cables would make a few more videos. I will continue donating as funds permit.

 

[Timstertoo]

At this point it's irrelevant who did what in the past.

It is? The only predictor of what will happen in the future is experience from the past.


Where did the money for the 70 units go? Where are the drop-ship sales? Where is the promotion work Craig promised? (One mass email?) Is there a single review or write-up of the pandora based on Craig's marketing work? (Maybe I just missed it.)


Ed is the one making brilliant promotional gameplay videos in addition to well, EVERYTHING else. It makes one ask what on earth Ed is getting out of the relationship.


On a side note, it would help if those with custom made TV-Out cables would make a few more videos. I will continue donating as funds permit.

I understand completely what you mean.


My only point is that there is so much money involved for the both of them that it's not worth bickering for them who did or did not reply to a mail and what adjustment did or did not happen on the website and just try to focus on how to progress from now on. Not point fingers about the past.


After the mess is solved both can re-evaluate their positions and decide to work together again or go their seperate ways based on the whole experience, like you say. That's also a good time for pointing fingers if they are inclined to do so. They just don't really have that luxury right now as at this exact point in time it will come at great cost to both of them. And us.

 

[Chock]

Yes it is. Please email Craig and tell him you'd like to cross upgrade, and he will give you a reference you can use when you order ftom EDs shop, and he will remove you from his queue.


If you are prepared to do this you are truly awesome.

Done twice already, first as a reply to the email with the offer, second time as a reminder and with my order number.


From what I understood, all I need is some voucher or ticket number that I can use on ED's site to prove I had an original order.

 

[darkborn]

Just not hiding facts&debts anymore! I do not want fresh people involved (milked) in this story, if they don't know what they are dealing with.


It's not about money, it is about honesty.


Craig, do we really have to organize ourself and make our preorders list public, without you? Who will be most hurt?


In long-term, Pandora project will gain of this because of transparency (and there are thousands of happy owners that can prove it),


we could loose our few hundreds €/$, but you - you will loose remaining credibility for entire life. And I'm not talking about legal acts, prosecutions etc.


Craig, do you really have a choice? And what do you really have to loose / hide?


Is it 150 or 800 - who cares anymore? Give us numbers, just stop hiding and messing around facts.


I know dozens and dozens of people like Craig, they are great in normal circumstances (aren't we all?).


But, when something go wrong, they act like... that. They are lost, and then try to mess around. And hurt people more and more.


Immature and selfish behavior.


Could somebody put on voting pro-against drop-shipping model? Mr. Rothwell owes it to the community.

 

[budweiser]

This is a shame what we don't need is more bad press. these arguments should of been handled over private conversations, and the buyers/preorders of the Pandora should be at least let know a proper/official eta/que ..most of the bitching is about when I'm I getting my Pandora..OP step up and be more professional lets not let a good thing(Open Pandora) slip away....Bud

 

[klapse]

My only point is that there is so much money involved for the both of them that it's not worth bickering for them who did or did not reply to a mail and what adjustment did or did not happen on the website and just try to focus on how to progress from now on.

What would the content of such a discussion be? Ed: "I offer to continue to direct a proportionate amount of my companys' revenues from new sales and upgrades into servicing your companys' outstanding debts/obligations." Craig: "Not good enough! (burrp)"


What benefit can Craig offer for Ed's company?

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, after 3,5 hours sleep and some camera work this morning, I've found some time to read some more posts here, and I might be able to give answers.


Thanks a lot for all your support guys.


Here is some thoughts about the whole thing...

• Without Craig, the Pandora wouldn't exist. You need a lot of self-confidence and risk to start a project like this. I would never have started it. Of course, without all the other chaps like DaveC, MWeston, Fatih, notaz, skeezix, etc.... well, the whole community, it also wouldn't exist. But he was the one who started it. And that takes a lot of courage.
  
• He's a visionaire. He has great ideas and pulls them through. But he's not very good with organizing all these things, in my opinion. I've not yet seen a project he did without delays or issues. And these delays were foreseeable, if properly planned.
  
• He's pretty good selling things. He could sell some grandma a tablet for 1000 EUR which she would not even have a use for. Which is great, but also bad. A lot of these sales will want their money back if they don't get the device within a given timeframe, which was an issue with the Pandora. This probably was the reason for the high amount of refunds he got. If he had 300 refunds out of 800 in the same timeframe where I had 10 out of 500, then there needs to be a reason for that. Selling and promotion Pandoras would be what we need now. It's ready, it can be shipped right away.
  
• One thing I don't like though is all the promises he makes which never happen. Not only dates that could've never been kept, but things that never happen. How many times has he announced the fabulous AppStore 2.0? How many promises have you seen about other things on these boards that never happened? It's typical marketing strategy these days, but it's totally different from what I do - and totally different from what I think this community needs.
  
• He's stubborn. Very stubborn. Which is both good and bad. It's good when working with some companies (especially in Asia), as you need to be stubborn and force them to do your work at some time. However, it also means he thinks he knows everything best, which is a bit of an issue when you have a handheld that's been meant for a community. He doesn't accept any suggestions. Remember the discussion about his Appstore? Regardless what the community suggested, he didn't care. Discussions about the Pandora 2... well, no suggestions, discussions or anything did change his mind about his vision. These are just two public examples. But as mentioned, I wasn't really involved in the Pandora development. No suggestion ever happened.
  
• Nobody really knows what he does inside his company. Where does all the money go? How many are left in the queue? What happened to all that money he got for the 1GHz units? Could it all be refunds? No one knows. That's normal for a company (no normal company would give out details), but it's very different in this case. The community and all our customers are actively supporting us. They should at least know what's really going on. I don't want to say Craig did something else with that money, but as he never really gives answers to such questions, it probably looks fishy for quite a few members. He's missing some needed transparency here, in my opinion.
  
• He ignores or forgets things he doesn't like. I'm not sure myself whether he realizes that or not. When I send him an eMail with questions, I only get about 50% of that answered. It's the same on the boards here: Stuff he doesn't like he doesn't reply to.
  
• He often tries to find someone else to blame for. Something didn't work out as he thought? Blame it on someone else. I've rarely seen a word of thanks. His behaviour towards the community often isn't the best one. Quite a few who helped out from the beginning left for that reason. Fatih (who still helps me with the Pandora production) doesn't want to be involved in any businesses with Craig anymore. It also was one of the main reasons why Prometheus left. And some more devs.
  

I do not want to badmouth Craig. This is just my opinion having worked with him during the last few years. He's a human being, he's a really nice chap to talk to and he doesn't want to scam anyone.


But as every human being, he's got some negative sides, and right now, with the current status we're in, they are like poison.


As long as everything runs as planned, he's awesome, as he can promote and sell stuff like hell. He's very very good with that.


This is, on the other hand, how I see myself... it might be biased, so you might correct me with some stuff...

• I'm honest and open. Which is good in the current situation, but can also be bad in certain cases (often in professional business work). There were some cases in the past where I wanted to be open and post what's happening when something went wrong but Craig prevented me doing that (mainly during the production phase). The issue I wanted to post about had silently been resolved a while later, so it was good I didn't post it. But right now, I think it's good to be open to let everyone know where he stands. It helps preventing preorders.
  
• I'm certainly not as good in sales as Craig is. He could've probably even lowered the current production cost with his business talent. I'm not really good at that. I can organize everything, but I can't bargain at all.
  
• I'm pretty good planning things and following that plan. Up until the 1GHz preorders started, everything went according to plan. We were a little late with the full production speed, but we started as planned and units had been shipped out as planned as well.
  
• I'm no marketing guy. Definitely not. I am too honest. I tell everyone what the Pandora can do but also what its flaws are. Because of that, my return and refund rate is VERY low, but I don't get as many orders. Whether that's good or bad is not easy to tell
  
• I always try to please EVERYONE. Which is impossible with such a massive amount of people
  

So basically, we both are humans. We both have our strenghts and our weaknesses.


For Pandora 2, I was hoping that we could finally share our work according to our strengths and weaknesses.

• Develop the device idea together (both making compromises of our own ideas), so that the most versatile and best solution would've been found. I've seen Craigs basic idea for the Pandora 2, and it was pretty good. I wouldn't have come up with this, it was his vision once again that's great. With our ideas (not just ours, but the once of Michael, Dave and the community as well), it would've been great.
  
• He could've taken care of sales and marketing, whereas I could've taken care of the production here, keeping deadlines, handling the community, making sure the production will run as planned (that worked great with the Pandora 1 here in Germany).
  

We are two very different people, and playing our cards right, we could've done it professionally.


Seems like it won't work out though.


These are just my thoughts. They might be subjective and biased, but I guess that can't be helped (it's probably the same with Craigs posts )

 

[rohezal]

I think ED and craig should discuss in a private board or private via email.

 

[notaz]

Personally I had no luck talking to Craig in private, it's like talking to a brick wall, unless he needs something from you. It does seem to work in public though, at least I got answers.