A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[EvilDragon]

ED, I think you should give him an option to earn money. Craig maybe just wants to see some $ of his 4 years of hard work.

Ummm... well, that was what he wanted to do with the 1GHz units. Buy them for production costs from me, sell them for a higher price, clear the queue and make profit.


I've also not yet seen any money for 4 years of work, but I got 450,000 EUR debts from that.

 

[Mr_Loon]

Good to see that this thread has allowed for some open communication between Craig and ED.


+1 to the idea that they should also have a long talk on the phone and then get something in writing that clearly states their obligations to each other.


It does seem like a lot of the recent problems have been caused by a lack of direct communication.

 

[klapse]

So we're back to discussing the way forward? Then I think this needs repeating:

Okay, this will probably be a lengthy post, but I hope I can be able to answer some questions and explain what's going on.


I will be as open as possible but I can't let you know any secrets about Craigs business.


First off, let's start with the past, last year August...


Back then, thanks to the catastrophic production at CC in Texas, nothing was left.


We had tons of defective PCBs from CC, no money left, half-paid parts (for the next 4000 units) and quite a number of preorders.


The number of preorders gave me back then for his company was 800. I had about 400 - 500 (don't remember exactly anymore), which added up to 1200 alltogether.


I created a business plan, exactly including all costs needed to move to Germany (including some additional potential costs as safety), and making a calculation of how many units we had to produce at what price to be able to fulfill all remaining preorders. All, not just mine, but Craigs as well.


As you can probably guess, pretty appropriate number of remaining preorders was crucial for this calculation.


I looked for investors with that plan and found them, production was moved to Germany, I paid the remaining costs for still needed parts, etc.


As Craig had quite a few refunds, I bought off the remaining parts he still owned and deducted that amount from the number of remaining preorders he had (which makes sens in my opinion).


The money for the parts were about 65,000 EUR, so it would be about 250 preorders (if a preorder is worth 260 EUR, which is more than a normal Batch 1 and a bit less than a Batch 2 preorder, so it should be a good average here)


So I assumed Craigs remaining preorders were about 550 - 600.


Craig got about 150 Pandoras from the profits we made, so the preorders should be down to about 400 - 450.


After that, the 1GHz preorders started. According to Craigs posts here, he got about 150 orders here. A rough guess would be 75 new ones (for 699 USD, at least 500 EUR per unit) and 75 for upgrades (500 USD, at least 360 EUR per unit), so that's a rough 65,000 EUR.


According to him, these 65,000 EUR had all been used up for refunds, so that would be another 250 preorders less, so we should be down to about 150 - 200 preorders left.


Of course, if he got 75 new orders he didn't have before, this would be 75 orders more, but as he got 70 units from me, this won't really change much.


However, I don't know the exact order number though. It might also be 130 new ones and 20 upgrades. But then again, that would add up to 72,000 EUR, so enough for about 280 preorder refunds (and 50 new orders, so it doesn't change much).


So yes, based on my estimations, it should be 150 - 200 preorders left.


Then there are the upgrades. So far, 125 of Craigs customers upgraded to the 1GHz unit (and either received it already or will receive it soon).


That would bring us down to 25 - 75 remaining preorders... but it doesn't seem that's the case, so my estimation seems to be wrong in some area, I just don't know where.


I remember I got a mail from Craig a while ago where he stated he had a lot more refunds because of customers returning Pandoras (broken or working state). But then again, I cannot imagine that this would be hundreds of units that came back in a totally unfixable state... otherwise, they could be refurbished and sold again.


Please note: This is all based on the one number I got in August (800), the money I paid to him to buy the parts off of him and the amount of 1GHz units he posted he sold here at the boards.


I don't have ANY other accurate numbers, so this the best I could do. But even if you take in account that he needs about 2000 EUR to keep his company going per month (don't know if that's his monthly costs, but it sounds okay to me), this would be about 120 units... so not THAT huge difference.


Well, what I can tell you for sure is that I got 150 preorders left (34 of those are Batch 1, the remaining ones Batch 2) with my company.


I just have not the slightest idea how many are really left with OpenPandora Ltd.


So much for the past, now onto the future...


As you know, production is running stable now, so no production issues anymore.


Right now, we're getting a failure rate of about 2%, which is pretty good.


I plan to produce and sell about 2000 more Pandoras and get back all funds the investors put in.


Of course, whatever may happen, I'll only be liable for my customers. But I still want to try to take car for Craigs customers as good as possible as well.


So what does this mean?


It means: I'll try to fulfill his remaining preorders as good as I can afford it and pay back refunds even in case his company goes bankrupt.


However, I can only do so when I can afford that, so you might not get a refund or your preorder right away. As I'm not liable for these preorders, you couldn't force me to refund you.


I plan to fulfill this with a mixture of donations, upgrades and new sales. And with sales from other items from my shop.


I will be as open as can be. You will always know where your money goes.


Here are some quick scenarios I just calculated:


Scenario 1:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 100


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 50


Donations received: 5,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for current 1GHz price: 1074 Units


Scenario 2:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 0


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 0


Donations received: 0,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for current 1GHz price: 1156 Units


Scenario 3:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 500


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 100


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 50


Donations received: 2,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for current 1GHz price: 1080 Units


Scenario 4:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 200


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 100


Donations received: 10000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for current 1GHz price: 993 Units


As you can see, upgrades and donations sure help bringing the amount of newly needed units down.


But even if Craig has 500 left and no upgrades and donations would come in, it would be possible if I sell a bit over 1000 units for the current price. This might not be easy, but possible if we all help together.


Let's see how the scenario changes if I would offer the Pandora for a lower price:


Scenario 1:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 100


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 50


Donations received: 5,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for a price of 450 EUR: 1334 Units


Scenario 2:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 0


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 0


Donations received: 0,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for 450 EUR: 1436 Units


Scenario 3:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 500


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 100


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 50


Donations received: 2,000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for 450 EUR: 1341 Units (HOWEVER: With 650 preorders, only 1250 Pandoras would be left! This would not work out!)


Scenario 4:


Rem. Preorders from Craig: 300


Rem. Preorders from ED: 150


Upgrades to 1GHz from Craig: 200


Upgrades to 1GHz from ED: 100


Donations received: 10000 EUR


Number of units needed to be sold for 450 EUR: 1233 Units


The amount of donations and upgrades has an even bigger impact here!


(Please note: What's not included in these scenarios yet is that GC might be able to repair quite a few of the CC PCBs which can be sold as refurbished units, etc.) as well as other profit from my shop).


So what does that tell us?

• Getting about 1300 more sales will solve everything /> So help promote the Pandora whereever you can. Especially try to eliminate the myth that the Pandora is not available from stock (it is!)
  
• If you can afford it, please upgrade to the 1GHz unit. It really helps a lot to speed things up and get us out of this mess.
  
• A price reduction is certainly possible in the future, but this depends on donations, upgrades, sales and the remaining preorders from Craig (still an unknown number). So right now, if you can afford it: Please buy it. It really helps us />
  
• Other profits from my shop help as well - so you are welcome to promote it as well.
  

I hope this clears things up a bit.


It's as much as I know and estimated. I'll try to do my best to help all of you get your Pandora.


I don't care about getting rich (heck, I'm happy if we can get out of the debts here), I just want that you all get your Pandora.


And I'll try to be as open as possible, as usual. Feel free to ask me more questions />

Did you skim it? Go back and read it. This (1000-1200 sales) HAS to happen to clear the preorders. Let us all donate and go forth to persuade someone to buy a Pandora.


EDIT: Ed, can you add a link for credit card donations?

 

[Linux-SWAT]

http://openpandora.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=214&Itemid=44&lang=en

 

[skeezix]

ED, I think you should give him an option to earn money. Craig maybe just wants to see some $ of his 4 years of hard work.

I don't think ED can take further losses fro Craig, while generating $$revenue for Craig, before he gets revenue himself


jeff

 

[rohezal]

ED, I think you should give him an option to earn money. Craig maybe just wants to see some $ of his 4 years of hard work.

Dropship means Craig sells a unit for 666€ but only have to pay ED the production price (375€). ED is taking the 375€, produce a pandora and sends it to craigs customer. I think this is the best solution.

 

[zounder1]

What a sad end.


So much promise this had. If this had been mass produced off the get go this could've sold tens of thousands within the space of a few months.


I've been putting off buying as it's been too expensive but I'm now tempted to spank £400 on it.


If I buy from you Ed how quickly will I get it?

I am in Canada. I ordered a few weeks ago. I received mine just over a week after ordering. I ordered in Thursday. It took a couple of days after ordering (weekend) for it to be picked up by DHL and then it was smooth sailing. It arrived exactly one week after DHL picked it up. I was very surprised how quickly it arrived.

 

[zounder1]

This is a question for Craig. Why don't you let Ed drop ship for orders you receive? I personally see absolutely no reason why not? But I am open to hear your reasons for not doing so?


You go on how you could sell so many Pandoras. You go on how you are such a great salesperson. Great! If you really think so then letting Ed handle the backend fufilment makes even more sense to do. Just generate those great sales, send your funds to Ed and he can ship the items out. (Remember to actually send him the funds for the sales or you will just add to the mess for the 1GHz preorders waiting for their units from you.) Each unit you sell this way generates profit for you to help pay for the 1GHz orders outstanding.


It is pretty obvious Ed will not grant you more credit and ship you anything without payment. And truthfully he is right to do so. You need cash flow and letting Ed do the backend shipping is a way to do that. And you get the bonus or not needing to tie up capital in inventory so that should help your cash position even more.


Please discuss.

 

[craigix]

This is a question for Craig. Why don't you let Ed drop ship for orders you receive? I personally see absolutely no reason why not? But I am open to hear your reasons for not doing so?


You go on how you could sell so many Pandoras. You go on how you are such a great salesperson. Great! If you really think so then letting Ed handle the backend fufilment makes even more sense to do. Just generate those great sales, send your funds to Ed and he can ship the items out. (Remember to actually send him the funds for the sales or you will just add to the mess for the 1GHz preorders waiting for their units from you.) Each unit you sell this way generates profit for you to help pay for the 1GHz orders outstanding.


It is pretty obvious Ed will not grant you more credit and ship you anything without payment. And truthfully he is right to do so. You need cash flow and letting Ed do the backend shipping is a way to do that. And you get the bonus or not needing to tie up capital in inventory so that should help your cash position even more.


Please discuss.

This isn't what we signed up to.


What was agreed was Ed would send us units to cover our remaining preorders.


But it was obvious pretty quickly Ed isn't able to sell units very well. So I tried to fix this.


But with the current joke that is openpandora.org I don't believe I can sell many units, the website is just too horrible to encourage decent sales, I did try to solve this, I've tried to do many things to help with sales - drop shipping won't solve this, we already DO drop shipping as you describe anyway.


Ed seems to listen to disruptive people like Skeezix, Notaz etc. who like nothing more then to simply encourage Ed to just say 'no' to me, not for the benefit of Ed or the Pandora project, but just because they don't like the existence of me - this is exceptionally disruptive and should not be happening.

 

[dmarschal]

ED, I think you should give him an option to earn money. Craig maybe just wants to see some $ of his 4 years of hard work.

I don't think ED can take further losses fro Craig, while generating $$revenue for Craig, before he gets revenue himself


jeff

The reason would be that Craig will not do other tricks in the future when he needs money. ED knows what has to be done to make profit and he is patiently waiting for it.

 

[notaz]

I've tried to do many things to help with sales

What things (besides the site)?

Ed seems to listen to disruptive people like Skeezix, Notaz etc. who like nothing more then to simply encourage Ed to just say 'no' to me, not for the benefit of Ed or the Pandora project, but just because they don't like the existence of me - this is exceptionally disruptive and should not be happening.

So back to vague "blame others" game with zero facts. Yeah right I have ED mind-controlled telepathically to say no. I can hardly ever even talk to ED in last months.

 

[sepp256]

Ed seems to listen to disruptive people like Skeezix, Notaz etc. who like nothing more then to simply encourage Ed to just say 'no' to me, not for the benefit of Ed or the Pandora project, but just because they don't like the existence of me - this is exceptionally disruptive and should not be happening.

This doesn't have a ring of truth to it. ED makes his own decisions, and Skeezix and Notaz, while they are upset with you in some posts, turn around and say gracious things about you, too.


Please try to accept that grace and exercise it yourself. We all still want the Pandora and Open Pandora Ltd. and you to succeed.

 

[EvilDragon]

This isn't what we signed up to.


What was agreed was Ed would send us units to cover our remaining preorders.

Well, that was before the 1GHz units.


You got the 1GHz units for production costs because you wanted to sell them yourself and use the profit to clear your queue.


Apparently, after the first 70 had been shipped, there wasn't even the money left to pay the production costs, which is what stopped the thing.


If you rather want to continue as before, I'm fine with that. That will happen once those 70 had been financed with the preorders, which will probably be within December.


So shipping will continue as planned after once that's happened.


So it will continue as planned before the disruption with the 1GHz preorders.

But it was obvious pretty quickly Ed isn't able to sell units very well. So I tried to fix this.

I was selling 10 - 20 a day until the 1GHz units had been announced. This went down to 1 - 2 per day after that.


Since then, whereever I see press coverage or show the Pandora to the public (like GamesCom), the reaction is the same: Too expensive for most.


So yes, sales have slowed down a lot after that.

But with the current joke that is openpandora.org I don't believe I can sell many units, the website is just too horrible to encourage decent sales, I did try to solve this, I've tried to do many things to help with sales - drop shipping won't solve this, we already DO drop shipping as you describe anyway.

We started dropshipping a few days ago with the upgrades, not with new orders.


I tried multiple times to go online with the new website, but there were a small few things I needed to have changed with that. It never happened, so I couldn't get it online.


Here you go. As a reminder for everyone: Here is the new website in its current state.


Here were the few changes I requested:


1. On contact page: Add a link to the ticket system. It's already online for a while, but shows "tbc @ op (ticket system here)".


2. While the focus should be on the 1GHz unit, there should also be information about the other units. Somewhere.


3. Add a page where we can offer the latest instruction manual and firmware for download. Maybe change the structure of the old one as a portal to provide more in-depth information and link to that from the new website.


I would've ignored the first three and put it online anyways (we could've worked on those and included that later), but there was one major issue which hasn't been changed yet.


That is the "Order" page.


It shows a nice "Choose your location" screen which is neat - but when you click it, the trouble starts.


My suggestion was to show the different distributors and shops for the various Pandoras we offer and link to them (i.e. ithic.com for Rebirth Pandoras, etc.)


This would be the professional way.


Right now, if you click on Mainland Europe, it directs directly to my shop (www.dragonbox.de) without telling the user that he's being directed to a different website.


Not sure how legal that is, but the main issue is the following:


When you click on any of the other locations, you can order directly on the website.


The website is registered on my company, yet orders placed there are being done through your company without letting the user know.


This is a legal issue. I would take the full responsibility for your orders placed there, as I own the site and you never leave it.


That's why my suggestion was months ago:


Setup your order page on a website you own (like gbax.com, etc.)


List the shops on the Order Now page and link from there.


If the new website was THAT important for you (I would've liked to put it online as well!), I wonder why it wasn't possible to at least change the last issue within the last few months.


My answer is the same as it was for the last few months: Fix it and I'll bring it online immediately.

 

[foft]

I was selling 10 - 20 a day until the 1GHz units had been announced. This went down to 1 - 2 per day after that.


Since then, whereever I see press coverage or show the Pandora to the public (like GamesCom), the reaction is the same: Too expensive for most.


So yes, sales have slowed down a lot after that.

I wonder what shape the curve is here. Perhaps there is a better balance here that will allow selling 7-8/day and make 75% profit on each of them, giving .75*4 = 3* profit? I know that example is simplistic but worth considering I think...


I think the public infighting is bad for sales for anyone who researches on the forums. I think the competition is a good idea to move the focus off the negative side.


I agree with others above who suggested a face to face meeting since resolving this with forum posts is a very bad idea and hard to communicate well. If these were any other members arguing in such a fashion this thread would be locked by now.

 

[Nagelfar]

This isn't what we signed up to.


What was agreed was Ed would send us units to cover our remaining preorders.

What is missing (mostly and foremost) is the money for the 1Ghz units. Money you took from people for them to get 1Ghz units before all the other people paying a high premium to do so. You received a first batch of 1 Ghz units but never paid ED the money.


So two questions remain:


1) Where did the money for the 1 Ghz testrun go? Money you, Craig, took from people.


2) What happened to the tax return you should have gotten in November?


I won't even comment on the rest, it is too sad already.

 

[palstyo]

ED


How bout Xmas sale?


Just bit reduce price of Pandora only for Xmas or some an additional things like a free SDHC card which is ready for use apps build in or free spare battery stylus etc.


I think probably increase more sales.


I always post to Pandora Japanese forum especially latest information/happen from here in Japanese, so I can telling to them as well.


Actually I did guide to your shop many times when they asking me where to buy Pandora or upgrade(someone ask me how to donate also when I translate these situation here )


Yes advertising is quite important too, coz. actually they can find Pandora Japanese forum but most of peoples couldn't find where to buy.(well most of problem is language barrier )


Well I saw Craig's Pandora page before when he post on forum.


It seems quite nice indeed but I wonder why he didn't put this online at that time.(now understand the reason for)


Craig


I strongly recommend you agree with ED's condition(coz. it seems acceptable isn't it?) and pls do your best to increase sales.


I can't forgive you what you did it to me/us(still no 1GHz from June) but I don't need apologize from you coz. that is you, so my wish is just recover it and resume shipping a.s.a.p you can.


No need to refund coz. I know you can't this time what I want is my 1GHz(and parts) that's all.


It is not so difficult for you isn't it?


Also pls don't giving up iCP2 project coz. I also pledge as well(I like iCP very much)

 

[Godmil]

Ooh I like the look of the new site. If those last couple of changes could be made you should definitely get that up.

 

[kasp]

This is a question for Craig. Why don't you let Ed drop ship for orders you receive? I personally see absolutely no reason why not? But I am open to hear your reasons for not doing so?


You go on how you could sell so many Pandoras. You go on how you are such a great salesperson. Great! If you really think so then letting Ed handle the backend fufilment makes even more sense to do. Just generate those great sales, send your funds to Ed and he can ship the items out. (Remember to actually send him the funds for the sales or you will just add to the mess for the 1GHz preorders waiting for their units from you.) Each unit you sell this way generates profit for you to help pay for the 1GHz orders outstanding.


It is pretty obvious Ed will not grant you more credit and ship you anything without payment. And truthfully he is right to do so. You need cash flow and letting Ed do the backend shipping is a way to do that. And you get the bonus or not needing to tie up capital in inventory so that should help your cash position even more.


Please discuss.

This isn't what we signed up to.


What was agreed was Ed would send us units to cover our remaining preorders.


But it was obvious pretty quickly Ed isn't able to sell units very well. So I tried to fix this.


But with the current joke that is openpandora.org I don't believe I can sell many units, the website is just too horrible to encourage decent sales, I did try to solve this, I've tried to do many things to help with sales - drop shipping won't solve this, we already DO drop shipping as you describe anyway.


Ed seems to listen to disruptive people like Skeezix, Notaz etc. who like nothing more then to simply encourage Ed to just say 'no' to me, not for the benefit of Ed or the Pandora project, but just because they don't like the existence of me - this is exceptionally disruptive and should not be happening.

I would have to question why you are relying on the design of your website so much for sales? The current website while not ground breaking in design is not enough to scare away customers.That seems like a pretty big cop out.


You know the best way to get pandora sales up? It is to reevaluate the price and open up distribution channels with sites like ThinkGeek and getting it into other peoples shops.Then you are not relying on your website. How many producers of product out there only have their product in their own shop? That should tell you it is the wrong with this current strategy.


Look at any electronic company out there almost none of them sell from their own website. If they do it is at an absolute premium, seems to be a working strategy across the globe. Even your own website doesn't do this but instead of a list of tonnes of websites that stock your product you only have two websites which are pretty much directly linked to the company.

 

[andmaz777]

Why does Craig never mention the 1ghz pre orders in any of his replies?


That's the main issue so just what is going on! Not paying for 70 expensive 1ghz units and to expect things not to change is strange. Going round in circles unfortunately which is a shame.


Plus at the current price point the 1ghz unit has a very limited market - everyone I have recently shown my unit to would pay approx £300 only and that would be for the 1ghz unit. I am sure a few would pay the 450 euro ED mentions in some of his scenarios.

....and that new site looks great!

 

[rohezal]

I think some private discussion would help. Btw. why not use ebay or amazon for sales? Very big sides with a lot of customers. Or deal extreme or aliexpress for merchants. Make a special offer. Buy 100 Pandoras, pay only 499€ per ghz unit. You can even avoid vat as merchant (which is included in the price I think). This way you can maybe sell a lot of pandoras because the merchant can sell them with a lot of profit. Maybe it is good idea for Craig to try to make big deals, which helps the project.


Btw. I like the christmas idea.


Lets make a challenge:


If until 23 December 100 People want to order a pandora (maybe make an extra site for it and take 1$ sign up fee to avoid fakes), for this 100 people the price is only 499€. This way you will get a lof preorders.


That is quite a derail, made a seperate thread for it