A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[vcoleiro1]

Must admit this makes me nervous about the ICP2.

Yeah, good luck for those who ordered this. I'm sure Craig will have many excuses and people to blame for delays

Excuses and blaming people is exactly what I'm worried might happen. Hope not, I really want the ICP2 I pledged for.


It also does worry me that the keyboard layout hasn't even been officially selected yet .

 

[kasp]

Must admit this makes me nervous about the ICP2.

Yeah, good luck for those who ordered this. I'm sure Craig will have many excuses and people to blame for delays

Excuses and blaming people is exactly what I'm worried might happen. Hope not, I really want the ICP2 I pledged for.


It also does worry me that the keyboard layout hasn't even been officially selected yet .

Just looked at the kickstarter and it says Estimated delivery: Nov 2012 So I guess it will be delivered in 2 months.


Lol, didn't see that happening

 

[Marycontrary]

My first post here. I ordered Dec 09. In may of 2010 I was 3100-3200 in queue. I'll probably be dead before I get this thing. I'm not being sarcastic either. 2012 has not been a good year for me. I have patiently waited. I used to check these boards frequently and finally I let it fall off the radar. I shouldn't have to weed through a a million posts to try to find out the status of my order. Unfortunately, I have and I'm not impressed. I kind of feel like I loaned you interest free money for 3 years without even a thankyou. I've not gotten a thanks for your patience e-mail or an e-mail letting me know you haven't forgotten me. I've never had enough courage to speak up on the boards due to abuse given to those who are simply fed up. I also have no use to read the posts from actual people who got one. I'm upset because I was one of your earliest supporters and people who came along later than I have a Pandora. I have lived my life trusting far too many people who took advantage of me and being screwed over financially with empty promises. Maybe I'm stupid, but when I ordered this I never expected that you would invest in newer versions before completing the original orders. I find it hard to beleive that you cannot get some sort of remedy from ciruitco for their mistakes. I simply fear I will never see the product. So, I've had my say and I'm sure my order has been pushed to the end of the list. I wish I had never heard of open pandora.

 

[_wb_]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

 

[hedwards]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

Sigh, so, the people who were unfortunate enough to arbitrarily choose to order from Craig several years ago, should be made to suffer? Without the money from those orders there would be no Pandora at all. Craig sold roughly 3/4 of the original units, punishing the people who bought through him because of changes later makes absolutely no sense.

 

[zagabar]

My first post here. I ordered Dec 09. In may of 2010 I was 3100-3200 in queue. I'll probably be dead before I get this thing. I'm not being sarcastic either. 2012 has not been a good year for me. I have patiently waited. I used to check these boards frequently and finally I let it fall off the radar. I shouldn't have to weed through a a million posts to try to find out the status of my order. Unfortunately, I have and I'm not impressed. I kind of feel like I loaned you interest free money for 3 years without even a thankyou. I've not gotten a thanks for your patience e-mail or an e-mail letting me know you haven't forgotten me. I've never had enough courage to speak up on the boards due to abuse given to those who are simply fed up. I also have no use to read the posts from actual people who got one. I'm upset because I was one of your earliest supporters and people who came along later than I have a Pandora. I have lived my life trusting far too many people who took advantage of me and being screwed over financially with empty promises. Maybe I'm stupid, but when I ordered this I never expected that you would invest in newer versions before completing the original orders. I find it hard to beleive that you cannot get some sort of remedy from ciruitco for their mistakes. I simply fear I will never see the product. So, I've had my say and I'm sure my order has been pushed to the end of the list. I wish I had never heard of open pandora.

I'm in the exact situation as you, having ordered summer 2010. I've also been very patient so far. I haven't voiced a single complaint about it taking time, even though I have often been wondering when my pandora would arrive. I've tried to be understanding that it is a lot of work to get these things out. For that reason i also only send emails to ask how i am standing in the queue about two times since then. But yeah, me too reading this thread feel unsire of the outcome and I'm also afraid that it will never arrive after all. I am keen on just ordering a 1Ghz one instead since i relaly like the idea of a pandora, but I don't think I can spend those money, especialyl when I've not had any gain at all from the last not unsignificant bunch of money I poured into the project. I suppose I could agree to donate a lesser sum to help the project get back on its feet, but as it stands now, it just feels too unsure that I'd ever get it.


The sad thing is that I'm sure that me and Marycontrary are not the only ones who have been non-complaining, patient customers just waiting.


Edit: To also mention something positive, I am really impressed by ED, and how capable he is at being a constant solid driving force behind the project against all odds. If somewhere, then it is at his dedication my hopes lie within this project. A lot of creds to you, ED, and also to the rest of the community for being the backbone of the project. I suppose some cred to you as well, craig, who _have_ done things for the project. Although it is becoming increasingly disputable if you deserve that cred or not.

 

[Marycontrary]

I would feel better if I knew how close I was to getting one shipped. I'm very disappointed how Craigx completely ignores questions about how many are still outstanding and I think we deserve an answer to know where our place is in the queue. Did your email about where you stand in the queue get answered as mine was apparently ignored. When I ordered I didn't see a choice of where to buy. There seems to be a huge pissing contest going on and I'm getting the fall out. I will never order anything from a foreign country ever again. I will never order a product yet to be made. I could continue to be patient, except I feel like I have been treated like mud on craigs shoe. The tone seems to be we need to sell more of the newer models to get rid of the pesky people we owe one to. I hope the people enjoying their newer model keep in mind it was people who ordered initially that started the whole ball rolling. It's insulting that people can get one today and I'm still waiting. I certainly hope you aren't investing any money into advertisements when you have outstanding orders from 09. I loaned a good friend money once and was very patient. I never got my money and my friend blows off my emails just like craig. Somone at open pandora needs to be a big enough person to accept responsibility, SAY I'M SORRY, and actual learn interpersonal skills from this experience. The wait sucks, but the attitude sucks more.

 

[_wb_]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

Sigh, so, the people who were unfortunate enough to arbitrarily choose to order from Craig several years ago, should be made to suffer? Without the money from those orders there would be no Pandora at all. Craig sold roughly 3/4 of the original units, punishing the people who bought through him because of changes later makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody should be made to suffer. But it's Craig's responsibility to end the suffering, not ED's. As far as I understand the situation, there are several hundreds of people who paid ~350 EUR to Craig a few years ago, and they are still waiting for Craig to deliver. Craig doesn't seem to be interested in solving this situation. Now what ED is essentially doing, is slowly personally paying the cost of all these devices to solve Craig's problem. So instead of several hundred people losing ~350 EUR, one guy (ED, or his shop, whatever) is paying that amount of money. In my opinion, ED is being too nice here. That money could also be used to pay back his own debts, and/or to invest in the development of a Pandora 2. Meanwhile Craig seems to have the time and money to start new projects (ICP, ICP2), but not to solve his own preorder mess, instead relying on ED to bail him out without even a thank you and without even telling ED how much money he's going to suck out of ED. And he's using his own customers as hostages, because he knows ED cares more about them than he does.

 

[Tenka]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

As a waiting customer of Craig's I must loudly disagree.


Edit: Your reply to hedwards may as well have been a reply to me. I take too long.

 

[zagabar]

I would feel better if I knew how close I was to getting one shipped. I'm very disappointed how Craigx completely ignores questions about how many are still outstanding and I think we deserve an answer to know where our place is in the queue. Did your email about where you stand in the queue get answered as mine was apparently ignored. When I ordered I didn't see a choice of where to buy. There seems to be a huge pissing contest going on and I'm getting the fall out. I will never order anything from a foreign country ever again. I will never order a product yet to be made. I could continue to be patient, except I feel like I have been treated like mud on craigs shoe. The tone seems to be we need to sell more of the newer models to get rid of the pesky people we owe one to. I hope the people enjoying their newer model keep in mind it was people who ordered initially that started the whole ball rolling. It's insulting that people can get one today and I'm still waiting. I certainly hope you aren't investing any money into advertisements when you have outstanding orders from 09. I loaned a good friend money once and was very patient. I never got my money and my friend blows off my emails just like craig. Somone at open pandora needs to be a big enough person to accept responsibility, SAY I'M SORRY, and actual learn interpersonal skills from this experience. The wait sucks, but the attitude sucks more.

No I didn't get to know my position. I just got to know that it was hard to estimate with all things going on.

 

[Gruntfuggly]

I think I agree with _wb_ - it's becoming clear now that those of us in Craig's queue are screwed (I know I definitely am because I was a late batch one orderer - probably #4000 knowing my luck) and from Craig's most recent comments I conclude that he's basically given up.


Ie, ED won't send him more pandoras until Craig pays, Craig won't pay for any more = production stopped.


I understand that Craig's orderers *shouldn't* suffer, but at the moment I think I'd rather Craig was sued and we got back *some* money rather than this 4 year limbo...

 

[zagabar]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

Sigh, so, the people who were unfortunate enough to arbitrarily choose to order from Craig several years ago, should be made to suffer? Without the money from those orders there would be no Pandora at all. Craig sold roughly 3/4 of the original units, punishing the people who bought through him because of changes later makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody should be made to suffer. But it's Craig's responsibility to end the suffering, not ED's. As far as I understand the situation, there are several hundreds of people who paid ~350 EUR to Craig a few years ago, and they are still waiting for Craig to deliver. Craig doesn't seem to be interested in solving this situation. Now what ED is essentially doing, is slowly personally paying the cost of all these devices to solve Craig's problem. So instead of several hundred people losing ~350 EUR, one guy (ED, or his shop, whatever) is paying that amount of money. In my opinion, ED is being too nice here. That money could also be used to pay back his own debts, and/or to invest in the development of a Pandora 2. Meanwhile Craig seems to have the time and money to start new projects (ICP, ICP2), but not to solve his own preorder mess, instead relying on ED to bail him out without even a thank you and without even telling ED how much money he's going to suck out of ED. And he's using his own customers as hostages, because he knows ED cares more about them than he does.

The thing is though that even if it sucks that Craig sucks the money out of ED and that ED takes the fall for Craig's mistakes, it could still be beneficial as a whole since otherwise you could probably wave goodbye to the old preorderer supporters and expect them to not talk very nicely about the pandora. Depending on the extent of this, this could very well mean lost sales. While on the other hand _if_ ED covers up for Craig, then it shows how strong and supportive the pandora community is, and I'm sure most of the preorderers would be much more obliged to helping/supporting and talking good about the pandora.


But yeah, I can totally as well also see that not happening. What is not feasible is not feasible, no matter how much it sucks.

 

[elwing]

No I didn't get to know my position. I just got to know that it was hard to estimate with all things going on.

don't worry, if ED's estimation based on the latest news from craigx the queue might be down to something like 25 pandora... BTW did I mentioned I ordered on day five and still have heard of nothing?


CraigX is hiding information on his queue size because it's not a few dozen units, it's more likely several hundreds that are still undelivered... and all he does lately is ignore the real question and insult other people in hope to drown the good question in the noise...

 

[Znirk]

Ie, ED won't send him more pandoras until Craig pays, Craig won't pay for any more = production stopped.

OK. let's not panic. As I understand Ed's position on sending Craig more units, it's as follows:


- Original plan: sell as many new units as possible, use profits to fund units for preorderers, split these 1:1 between Ed and Craig.


- Superduper2.0eleventyone plan: While the above continues for classic pandoras,, Craig buys GHz units at cost from Ed and sells them. He receives 70, doesn't pay for them, this plan stops early and hard, and adds a whole new category of GHz preorders (which should have been simply orders) over at Craig's.


- New plan: sell as many new units as possible, use profits to fund units for preorders, split these 1:1 between Ed and Craig but consider the unpaid 70 units an advance on these. The next 70 preorderer units all go to Ed's list, after which the 1:1 split resumes.

 

[zagabar]

Yeah, Craigx, can't you just simply post the remaining amount of preorderers? It is one single number, can't be that hard can it? By doing that you'd already make it better for the waiting people (like me) out there.

 

[_wb_]

I think ED should stop trying to save Craig (or his customers) until Craig finally shows some transparency (maybe not publicly but at least towards ED). If that means Craig has to file for bankruptcy and his customers get only partial refunds out of that, then so be it. There's no way you can help someone who doesn't seem to want to be helped, and in fact even refuses to inform you about the size of the actual problem.

Sigh, so, the people who were unfortunate enough to arbitrarily choose to order from Craig several years ago, should be made to suffer? Without the money from those orders there would be no Pandora at all. Craig sold roughly 3/4 of the original units, punishing the people who bought through him because of changes later makes absolutely no sense.

Nobody should be made to suffer. But it's Craig's responsibility to end the suffering, not ED's. As far as I understand the situation, there are several hundreds of people who paid ~350 EUR to Craig a few years ago, and they are still waiting for Craig to deliver. Craig doesn't seem to be interested in solving this situation. Now what ED is essentially doing, is slowly personally paying the cost of all these devices to solve Craig's problem. So instead of several hundred people losing ~350 EUR, one guy (ED, or his shop, whatever) is paying that amount of money. In my opinion, ED is being too nice here. That money could also be used to pay back his own debts, and/or to invest in the development of a Pandora 2. Meanwhile Craig seems to have the time and money to start new projects (ICP, ICP2), but not to solve his own preorder mess, instead relying on ED to bail him out without even a thank you and without even telling ED how much money he's going to suck out of ED. And he's using his own customers as hostages, because he knows ED cares more about them than he does.

The thing is though that even if it sucks that Craig sucks the money out of ED and that ED takes the fall for Craig's mistakes, it could still be beneficial as a whole since otherwise you could probably wave goodbye to the old preorderer supporters and expect them to not talk very nicely about the pandora. Depending on the extent of this, this could very well mean lost sales. While on the other hand _if_ ED covers up for Craig, then it shows how strong and supportive the pandora community is, and I'm sure most of the preorderers would be much more obliged to helping/supporting and talking good about the pandora.

I agree with that, which is also why I support the whole donations thing (e.g. as you may have noticed, you can support the PNDs I put on the repo by donating to the preorder fund). But I still think ED is being too nice here, and I don't like Craig's attitude at all. Craig created the mess, now he expects ED to clean it up, and instead of being grateful, he throws random insults at ED and most of the core Pandora devs (notaz et al) and actively makes it harder to clean up the mess (e.g. by creating another preorder queue for the 1GHz models, whose announcement also had the not-so-surprising side-effect of significantly reducing ED's sales).

 

[kasp]

I just had a really bad thought.


It just doesn't make any sense for Craig to hide this information with his pre order queue especially to ED.


Perhaps he has been selling the orders which have been meant to go to his pre orders. Probably not all of them but at least some of them. Since ED estimates that his preorder queue shouldn't be that much based on numbers Craig gave earlier but it is damn obvious to anyone that Craigs preorders far exceed these numbers.


Would be in character, he spent the 1 Ghz money on other shit as well.


ED you really need to put your foot down and get information about Craig's financial position and pre order position before dealing with him anymore.


Craig I would love for you to prove this theory wrong but I really doubt you can. Ignoring it really just proves your guilt.

 

[Abanest]

Well... He either does not know how to count, or he's been up to something very fucking dodgy. Or he's just a stubborn bastard that refuses to tell anyone his remaining pre-order amount.


Either way I suppose it is the benefit of the doubt for now until we know for certain.


Until Craig's next rant-like post that answers absolutely nothing. Cheers!

 

[rohezal]

Ok nobody is screwed. ED has just to sell enough Pandoras to get the money for 70 Pandoras from Craig. Then its 1 on 1. One customer of ED gets one Pandora, one customer of Craig gets one Pandora. This will all be resolved in the next time. Don't tell people they won't get their Pandora, its looking pretty good right now. It will just take more time.


The donation is helping, the sales are ok, maybe some christmas events will help to increase the sales too. And make a damn christmas event. Limited offer: 100 Pandoras for 499€ each. You will get a lot of sales.


http://boards.openpa...l-more-pandora/

 

[kasp]

Ok nobody is screwed. ED has just to sell enough Pandoras to get the money for 70 Pandoras from Craig. Then its 1 on 1. One customer of ED gets one Pandora, one customer of Craig gets one Pandora. This will all be resolved in the next time. Don't tell people they won't get their Pandora, its looking pretty good right now. It will just take more time.


The donation is helping, the sales are ok, maybe some christmas events will help to increase the sales too. And make a damn christmas event. Limited offer: 100 Pandoras for 499€ each. You will get a lot of sales.


http://boards.openpa...l-more-pandora/

How can ED know when Craig has run out of preorder Pandoras without a firm number? According to ED's records there shouldn't be that many left. However it looks like Craig has an awful lot left to go. What else would explain this discrepancy? Craig just needs to come out and say it. It is well past the time he can hide this number.


Even if he gives a number I would recommend ED can somehow confirm these numbers.