A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[dooble]

I read through a bunch and just picked a few to quote where many others should be quoted.

The circus is back in town! At this point, the community has a pretty good grasp of what's happening behind the scenes.


I think ED needs to focus on clearing out his batch1/2 queue and get his orders inline. Craig needs to be dedicated to paying for his queue and selling units to fund this.


ED can be a gentlemen as much as he wants.. but I think in the long term, getting his queue down to zero is better than balancing both.

Yes the circus is back. My guess is that Craig's latest upgrade offer resulted in more refund requests than upgrades. I like what I hear from Ed about covering Craig's pre-orders (of all types) based on the plan. I would assume that Craig's company would have more financial interest in all the tooling, NRE, etc which must be transferred at FMV or be subject to a look back period. Just leaving Craig out to hang with most of the pre-orders makes the entire project look bad. I've also heard the reasons for having different companies, so one can survive to help out. The opposite could also be done where you plan on one going under if something unfortunate happens at the start up as did with the pandora. I'm not saying this was the plan or is really what happened. I think the question of where the more recent pre-order (1GHz) money went in Craig's shop would be more telling. I assume this was some type of scheme to front load that would help in the long run. (Scheme -- plan, not implying unethical behavior).


It looks like Craig has been taken out of the the path for customer cash flow as someone noted that his shop is no longer listed. I think this was happening anyway just based on forum responses. I would question how Craig is going to do refunds if the company has no method for inflows of cash.


Ed, a couple questions for you


1. how are you getting addresses, address updates, precise orders, etc from Ed's open orders?


2. are you planning on covering refunds for any of Craig's pre-orders?

I can add that preorders who do not upgrade are waiting to get a product shipped BELOW COST to them. I can only encourage them to UPGRADE and pay the extra to allow OPT to stay viable.

Upgrading does help. However, a refund would be better than waiting on the pre-order if it is truly below cost. The upgrade is better overall.


Someone also posted questioning the Below cost statement based on chip content, etc. I have not tried to analyze it, but one must include low volume manufacturing costs, shipping (mfg to OP), case, nubs, piece parts, parts shipping cost (to the CM), pcb, shipping materials, and warranty cost just to name some of the expenses.


Lastly... posting all the queue info and status. This could really be helpful or depressing depending upon the size and speed of progress.

 

[Timstertoo]

Normally, you get vouchers directly from Craigs shop and do the payment directly through my shop.


Only a few ones paid to Craig and the payment and order details have been sent to me. This also happens instantly, no worries.


Most of these units (except the updates that happened during the last five days) have already been shipped, but I didn't have the time to send a shipment confirmation mail yet (unlike the orders that went through my shop, as they get an automatic "shipped"-mail.


I'll try to send all the mails to the already shipped units today.

Then the only thing I have to wait for is for the upgrade from original pre order to 1GhZ price to come down to a price I consider fair (100-150) and I'll send you some money

 

[zounder1]

Normally, you get vouchers directly from Craigs shop and do the payment directly through my shop.


Only a few ones paid to Craig and the payment and order details have been sent to me. This also happens instantly, no worries.


Most of these units (except the updates that happened during the last five days) have already been shipped, but I didn't have the time to send a shipment confirmation mail yet (unlike the orders that went through my shop, as they get an automatic "shipped"-mail.


I'll try to send all the mails to the already shipped units today.

I personally had trouble even getting a voucher from Craig. I never received his email discussing the upgrade process. I asked for help getting this email but received nothing unfortunately.


A few weeks ago I just went to Ed's site and ordered the 1GHz upgrade. It took just over one week to deliver to Canada (via DHL option) which was impressive. Thank you Ed.


So I guess I missed out on some savings with this voucher. Annoying? Possibly. But I no longer am stuck in Craig's queue and for me that it priceless. Going forward if there is ever a Pandora 2 I will only order from Ed or Ithic. Heck I will not order an ICP2 from Craig directly. I do not have confidence in Craig anymore to deliver. It is sad, but it is the prudent thing to do.


Craig's communication style (or lack thereof) has always bothered me and I pretty well regretted ordering from Craig within the first 6 months. (I ordered December 2009.) I hung on but resolved to not send another penny to Craig when all these upgrade offers started coming through. When I noticed the 1Ghz upgrade option on Ed's site I jumped Craig's sinking ship very quickly.


So if you are considering upgrading through Ed, I can an at least chip in here that it worked very well for me. Which is awesome.

 

[zounder1]

I read through a bunch and just picked a few to quote where many others should be quoted.

The circus is back in town! At this point, the community has a pretty good grasp of what's happening behind the scenes.


I think ED needs to focus on clearing out his batch1/2 queue and get his orders inline. Craig needs to be dedicated to paying for his queue and selling units to fund this.


ED can be a gentlemen as much as he wants.. but I think in the long term, getting his queue down to zero is better than balancing both.

Yes the circus is back. My guess is that Craig's latest upgrade offer resulted in more refund requests than upgrades. I like what I hear from Ed about covering Craig's pre-orders (of all types) based on the plan. I would assume that Craig's company would have more financial interest in all the tooling, NRE, etc which must be transferred at FMV or be subject to a look back period. Just leaving Craig out to hang with most of the pre-orders makes the entire project look bad. I've also heard the reasons for having different companies, so one can survive to help out. The opposite could also be done where you plan on one going under if something unfortunate happens at the start up as did with the pandora. I'm not saying this was the plan or is really what happened. I think the question of where the more recent pre-order (1GHz) money went in Craig's shop would be more telling. I assume this was some type of scheme to front load that would help in the long run. (Scheme -- plan, not implying unethical behavior).


It looks like Craig has been taken out of the the path for customer cash flow as someone noted that his shop is no longer listed. I think this was happening anyway just based on forum responses. I would question how Craig is going to do refunds if the company has no method for inflows of cash.


Ed, a couple questions for you


1. how are you getting addresses, address updates, precise orders, etc from Ed's open orders?


2. are you planning on covering refunds for any of Craig's pre-orders?

I can add that preorders who do not upgrade are waiting to get a product shipped BELOW COST to them. I can only encourage them to UPGRADE and pay the extra to allow OPT to stay viable.

Upgrading does help. However, a refund would be better than waiting on the pre-order if it is truly below cost. The upgrade is better overall.


Someone also posted questioning the Below cost statement based on chip content, etc. I have not tried to analyze it, but one must include low volume manufacturing costs, shipping (mfg to OP), case, nubs, piece parts, parts shipping cost (to the CM), pcb, shipping materials, and warranty cost just to name some of the expenses.


Lastly... posting all the queue info and status. This could really be helpful or depressing depending upon the size and speed of progress.

Sorry, but why would Ed give refunds for Craig? The simple answer is NO. Ed has no obligation (legal or ethical) to refund orders placed through Craig.


Craig is obligated to try and fix the mess he created, but he definitely has a tough challenge ahead of him. I do believe he is trying, whether he succeeds only time will tell.


Ed has been gracious enough to offer the upgrade cost to help out the users that are stuck in Craig's queue. He had no legal requirement to do this, but I believe Ed is an extremely ethical guy and wants to help while not hurting himself financially. That is the most one could possibly ask from Ed. And I commend Ed for this.

 

[ShleeDragon]

Regardless of the past... ED has pretty much continued to reiterate this.


Craig and ED "work together" to advertise and sell 1GHz (rebirths secondary) to new customers from EDs store at the higher price (ED orders units and sends them quickly).


ED uses the extra money from the new units to pay for the production of the old units (This again is old news). Some of us are donating to cover these costs too.


If ED has 500 batch 1 units... I'm under the impression he'll need to sell 1000 1GHz units to cover them? Upgrades from rebirth to 1GHz has a two fold effect of shrinking the batch1/2 and moving it forward at the same time (win/win).


People running on the bank and recouping their costs from the original batches breaks the bank and hurts Craig and ED.


Bottom line? This is something that will be fixed in time. Everybody is going to get their Pandoras. We just need to help sell the new units... Once the original batches are finished. the price of the 1GHz will go down.


Edit: Craig's responsibility is to cover the additional missing money for the 70 1GHz units at cost price (lower than store)? Apart from that. ED will send Craig units as he can afford them.

 

[notaz]

The moment it is possible to upgrade my pre order to a 1GhZ for a fair price (100$-150$) Ill pull out my credit card the same day and upgrade.

Such price is way below production costs, so ED would have to cover the rest from his own pockets. The money you already sent to Craig was used up by his own company, not ED..

Er, so wait... Where did the money Craig got from tax refund and 1ghz upgrades go? All refunds?

I wonder about that too, he never posted about it, so nobody knows..

As to my understanding, ED has the 1ghz units in stock, but craig doesn't. And the people in Craig's queue (like me), can't get any because Craig doesnt have any units... Where did the money from the 1ghz orders go...? 150 1ghz units were ordered and paid for, so how come Craig didn't order and pay for 150 units from ED?

So where is the money for that? you never say that money use for 26units?

The only explanation given by him was the refunds, nobody knows any more details, he typically doesn't answer questions he doesn't like (see his "ask" forum).

 

[siggjen]

I have now received my 1 GHz upgrade from UK. Thank you very much to the Pandora community and the OpenPandora team. I have bought a premium which looked so so, but the 1 GHz really looks nice.

 

[zounder1]

Regardless of the past... ED has pretty much continued to reiterate this.


Craig and ED "work together" to advertise and sell 1GHz (rebirths secondary) to new customers from EDs store at the higher price (ED orders units and sends them quickly).


ED uses the extra money from the new units to pay for the production of the old units (This again is old news). Some of us are donating to cover these costs too.


If ED has 500 batch 1 units... I'm under the impression he'll need to sell 1000 1GHz units to cover them? Upgrades from rebirth to 1GHz has a two fold effect of shrinking the batch1/2 and moving it forward at the same time (win/win).


People running on the bank and recouping their costs from the original batches breaks the bank and hurts Craig and ED.


Bottom line? This is something that will be fixed in time. Everybody is going to get their Pandoras. We just need to help sell the new units... Once the original batches are finished. the price of the 1GHz will go down.


Edit: Craig's responsibility is to cover the additional missing money for the 70 1GHz units at cost price (lower than store)? Apart from that. ED will send Craig units as he can afford them.

I am so tired of this attitude that folks should just wait because it hurts Craig/Ed. Well guess what? The people that don't have a Pandora yet have are hurt too. They have to decide what it right in their life. They can:


1) Do they wait and hope something ever gets delivered?


There is absolutely no guarantee that those in Craig's queue will get anything. Sorry but you have optimism that is not warranted. The only person that communicates clearly is Ed. Craig's comments are ridiculously obtuse and typically do not answer any question directly.


2) Do they ask for a refund?


People needs change. Just because you still want a Pandora does not mean someone that ordered one needs it. They may have moved onto some other hobby. They may need the money back as their finances are tight. In all honestly folks have the right to ask for a refund for any darn reason they want. Asking folks to be patient is a load of poppycock. They can do as they please. And given the horrible experience for folks can you really blame them for asking for a refund and moving on?


3) Pay to upgrade through Ed


This is a big expense for a lot of people. At least it is a viable option with a positive outcome. But for many this is not a financially viable option.


This is also ignoring the people that paid Craig to get an early 1GHz model and still have nothing. (70 people or so.) That is simply disgusting. Utterly disgusting. Craig has to figure out how to help these people but he is likely out of cash and just scraping by as new orders come in. The reason I am not optimistic Craig will be able to recover is any sane person should only order directly from Ed - as Ed is actually shipping things out as they are paid. Craig has lots of outstanding orders that have been paid and have not yet shipped. It is a vicious cycle, but one that Craig got himself into.


My advice to anyone interested in a Pandora is to order through Ed. It is the prudent thing to do given what has happened.

 

[overgauss]

Wait. A second ago it wasn't Craigix' fault, and what do you want him to do go bankrupt because of the CC issue? And we're lucky he stuck it through. Then everytime a pre-order asked where his product was he basically got his shit jumped and told to either stfu and wait or cancel. So then WONDERS UPON WONDERS a whole bunch of people cancel. I'm sue it's because they could really feel the love. It wasn't until recently that people stopped telling people to cancel and it wasn't until recently that all of this communication opened up regarding this specific issue and issues related to it. It took a lot of bitching just to get that to happen.


So basically we created this whole fuck the pre-orders mentality over the years, and everything OPT did was glorious (even Craigix!). But now through inaction we've screwed the pooch and the blame game is on full speed ahead. You guys flamed the shit out of me for asking for help to solve this issue and if I was a preorder somewhat undecided on the issue I probably would have asked for my money back too.


When I preordered my 2 pandoras I had no idea there were two separate companies nor was that made clear to me at the time of purchase. I've asked for my money back long ago due to forum attitude, but the best way to ensure that everyone is happy is to try to FIX the problem. Fix the problem and everyone is happy. The last thing you want to do is discredit OPT or a portion of it, and/or leave half of it hanging out to dry.


WTG guys!

 

[zounder1]

Wait. A second ago it wasn't Craigix' fault, and what do you want him to do go bankrupt because of the CC issue? And we're lucky he stuck it through. Then everytime a pre-order asked where his product was he basically got his shit jumped and told to either stfu and wait or cancel. So then WONDERS UPON WONDERS a whole bunch of people cancel. I'm sue it's because they could really feel the love. It wasn't until recently that people stopped telling people to cancel and it wasn't until recently that all of this communication opened up regarding this specific issue and issues related to it. It took a lot of bitching just to get that to happen.


So basically we created this whole fuck the pre-orders mentality over the years, and everything OPT did was glorious (even Craigix!). But now through inaction we've screwed the pooch and the blame game is on full speed ahead. You guys flamed the shit out of me for asking for help to solve this issue and if I was a preorder somewhat undecided on the issue I probably would have asked for my money back too.


When I preordered my 2 pandoras I had no idea there were two separate companies nor was that made clear to me at the time of purchase. I've asked for my money back long ago due to forum attitude, but the best way to ensure that everyone is happy is to try to FIX the problem. Fix the problem and everyone is happy. The last thing you want to do is discredit OPT or a portion of it, and/or leave half of it hanging out to dry.


WTG guys!

I'm not sure who you are complaining to? My comments? Someone else's comments?


I'll ask a few questions. I assume you ordered from Craig? Did you get your refund? Or are you stuck waiting for a refund?

 

[Timstertoo]

The moment it is possible to upgrade my pre order to a 1GhZ for a fair price (100$-150$) Ill pull out my credit card the same day and upgrade.

Such price is way below production costs, so ED would have to cover the rest from his own pockets. The money you already sent to Craig was used up by his own company, not ED..

I was referring to Ed saying Craig will give me a voucher for my order with him. Thus making the total whatever I paid Craig back then plus the extra 100$-150$


Basically I have two scenarios and in neither will I be blackmailed to paying a unit completely again because of a sunk cost fallacy.


If the price for a 1GhZ upgrade doesn't come down to the point where I pay true production cost in total (so my original paid sum and then an upgrade price to make up for the difference between that and the true production cost now) I'll simply wait for my 600MhZ unit from Craig which by the looks of the exchange him and ED just had on the forum is going to be long and painfull.


I really feel strongly that it is only fair that the original pre orders get a 1GhZ unit for their long wait, at the same time I also feel strongly that we as original pre orders should have a lot of respect how ED has pulled through and at least give something back by paying the difference between the orignal price and the higher production cost now.


I find the upgrade amount now of 400$ or whatever it is on top of what they've already paid and the time they've waited an obscene amount and I'm shocked to see how many people feel bullied into paying that, at the same time I'm happy for them they have their Pandoras now.


I think trying to sell the 1GhZ for ~850$ to newcomers is severely limiting the amount of people that will consider getting a Pandora and with not getting them into the community now it will also mean a smaller potential customer base for the Pandora2 you can easily reach. I'm hoping that as soon as the pre order 1GhZ people are serviced the price will come down to a more commercially realistic level and units will start shipping and the community grow faster.


Lastly I think that ED should take control of all shipping thus making sure that the free units he's was sending Craig get sent to the right persons instead of being sold again for quick cash. I'm not saying ED should take the financial responsibility but at least take care of the logistics as he seems the better organiser and communicator of the two. This will also allow ED to give the community better insight in the queues and the progress made working through them thus rebuilding trust with the community. I realise this is probably not something that is going to happen as Craig will have to relinquish some control and allow ED to see the full extent of the mess he is in but I think it would make sense.


It would be good if a way can be found to get as many units as possible out there and get Craig working on stuff he's good at and spawn plenty of wacky ideas so he can also have fun on the forums again and enjoy working on plans instead of dreading every moment. It's obvious where his strengths don't lie, let's hope he and ED can work together in such a way that his weaknesses get negated.

 

[palstyo]

So where is the money for that? you never say that money use for 26units?

The only explanation given by him was the refunds, nobody knows any more details, he typically doesn't answer questions he doesn't like (see his "ask" forum).

Indeed mostly like that.


But this is kind a criminal things if he did it again.


Or may be I'm just idiot coz. I order 1GHz pre+some parts from Craig and pledged for iCP2(I think this will be help that's why I did but seems mean less too) after that happen as well.


So actually there is noway to resolve this situation sooner.

 

[dooble]

I read through a bunch and just picked a few to quote where many others should be quoted.

The circus is back in town! At this point, the community has a pretty good grasp of what's happening behind the scenes.


I think ED needs to focus on clearing out his batch1/2 queue and get his orders inline. Craig needs to be dedicated to paying for his queue and selling units to fund this.


ED can be a gentlemen as much as he wants.. but I think in the long term, getting his queue down to zero is better than balancing both.

Yes the circus is back. My guess is that Craig's latest upgrade offer resulted in more refund requests than upgrades. I like what I hear from Ed about covering Craig's pre-orders (of all types) based on the plan. I would assume that Craig's company would have more financial interest in all the tooling, NRE, etc which must be transferred at FMV or be subject to a look back period. Just leaving Craig out to hang with most of the pre-orders makes the entire project look bad. I've also heard the reasons for having different companies, so one can survive to help out. The opposite could also be done where you plan on one going under if something unfortunate happens at the start up as did with the pandora. I'm not saying this was the plan or is really what happened. I think the question of where the more recent pre-order (1GHz) money went in Craig's shop would be more telling. I assume this was some type of scheme to front load that would help in the long run. (Scheme -- plan, not implying unethical behavior).


It looks like Craig has been taken out of the the path for customer cash flow as someone noted that his shop is no longer listed. I think this was happening anyway just based on forum responses. I would question how Craig is going to do refunds if the company has no method for inflows of cash.


Ed, a couple questions for you


1. how are you getting addresses, address updates, precise orders, etc from Ed's open orders?


2. are you planning on covering refunds for any of Craig's pre-orders?

I can add that preorders who do not upgrade are waiting to get a product shipped BELOW COST to them. I can only encourage them to UPGRADE and pay the extra to allow OPT to stay viable.

Upgrading does help. However, a refund would be better than waiting on the pre-order if it is truly below cost. The upgrade is better overall.


Someone also posted questioning the Below cost statement based on chip content, etc. I have not tried to analyze it, but one must include low volume manufacturing costs, shipping (mfg to OP), case, nubs, piece parts, parts shipping cost (to the CM), pcb, shipping materials, and warranty cost just to name some of the expenses.


Lastly... posting all the queue info and status. This could really be helpful or depressing depending upon the size and speed of progress.

Sorry, but why would Ed give refunds for Craig? The simple answer is NO. Ed has no obligation (legal or ethical) to refund orders placed through Craig.


Craig is obligated to try and fix the mess he created, but he definitely has a tough challenge ahead of him. I do believe he is trying, whether he succeeds only time will tell.


Ed has been gracious enough to offer the upgrade cost to help out the users that are stuck in Craig's queue. He had no legal requirement to do this, but I believe Ed is an extremely ethical guy and wants to help while not hurting himself financially. That is the most one could possibly ask from Ed. And I commend Ed for this.

The question was asked because I thought I saw that Ed was trying to fill pre-orders from Craig's queue which from the separate company viewpoint Ed does not have to to either. Upgrades are a different story altogether.


I asked the question because it does have to do with the state of the pandora project and whether it is better to ask for a refund or wait for a possible pandora down the line. It is not that I expect Ed to have to do this. If Craig is out of getting orders for the pandoras and his companies are truly separate, it speaks volumes for the state of those who ordered through him. As from previous posts that was most of the pre-orders.

 

[palstyo]

The question was asked because I thought I saw that Ed was trying to fill pre-orders from Craig's queue which from the separate company viewpoint Ed does not have to to either. Upgrades are a different story altogether.


I asked the question because it does have to do with the state of the pandora project and whether it is better to ask for a refund or wait for a possible pandora down the line. It is not that I expect Ed to have to do this. If Craig is out of getting orders for the pandoras and his companies are truly separate, it speaks volumes for the state of those who ordered through him. As from previous posts that was most of the pre-orders.

My understanding is originally they are autherized distributor of GP2X in UK and Germany.(actually I bought GP2X from his shop before that's why I'm become one of Pandora owner)


Anyway It was separate company even til now.


They just working together as project Pandora.


But separate sales like they did before.


So ED just help us who order from Craig without any profit(just take actual cost)


I think it working well for existing old-preorders.


Be honest ED is really nice guy. :wub:


But like me who order new 1GHz unit from Craig probably quite difficult to resolve it even ED.


Actually what craig done is make more casualty of 1GHz , this is really sad.

 

[Znirk]

ED said:

Either I need the payment for these 70 units or catch up with classic preorders for my customers and from then on it's 1:1 again.
This means that the more sales I have, the faster this will happen.

Which I understand as:


Craig pays for the 70 units I sended already, to deliver them to his customers.


OR


FIRST I will ship classic preorder queue units first to my costumers. THEN I will send units to craigix customers. So you will get your pandoras when ED queue is clear.

Not my understanding. Ed is planning to ship pandoras to his own preorderers and to Craig for his queue as the necessary money becomes available. The plan was to split these pandoras evenly (1:1) between the two shops, but if Craig doesn't pay up then Ed will first take an extra 70 units for his own customers (catching up) before resuming the 1:1 split-between-the-shops plan.

 

[Monkfish]

Hang in there, Palstyo. My unit came, yours will too. Try to stay positive, and remember regardless of who's made mistakes in the past we've got a great community here working together towards a solution with their generous donations. No-one wants this situation to continue any longer than it has to, it will get resolved eventually.

 

[fusion_power]

If there ever will be a "Pandora2" I recommend that ED does all the sales/shipping. He never disappointed me. ^^

 

[EvilDragon]

Just a quick addition:


I just sent out over 60 tracking eMails manually (had to type the tracking numbers from the postal receipts... urghh!), so I didn't find the time to reply to some questions here addressed to me how I'll help, etc.


I'll do that tomorrow or - worst case - on Monday (as I got to work at a hockey game once again tomorrow).


Don't worry, we'll manage the stuff somehow

 

[Linux-SWAT]

Please can you verify if the tracking number 032180147549874132357879 wasn't swapped with the 45686923313544487987 ?


Gogo Panthers ;^).

 

[darkborn]

Everything's cool but one thing I can't get it...


We are talking about how many millions? Billions? Ten thousands of preorders?


Nope.


Few thousands.


How many remains? FEW HUNDREDS. Split in 2-3 shops, but nevermind that.


OK. How many donations were? How many upgrades?


HUNDREDS.


So, after a 4 years, we can't get proper list of preorders left? This few hundreds (if that)?


And how many people got Pandoras already? Thousands? Ten thousands?


I WANT IT PUBLIC.


Or, if this could hurt something, get it under password. And provide password for us, who are still waiting, and provide it to ANYBODY interested for:


Guys who already got their Pandora, guys who donated, guys that wants to donate.


THEN I'll believe in upgrade, then I WILL upgrade, for reasonable price.


I will even pay for somebody else waiting 4 years... but, common you can't get FEW HUNDREDS ROWS TABLE .ODS (.xls)? Not buying that.


Don't tell me this is meter of confidence... If you're not able to trust THIS community, then... this is all scam.


I'LL RETYPE FEW HUNDREDS LINES. YOU OWN ME THAT, YOU OWN US ALL.


I do not want refund. I want case closed. Personal, and all.


P.S. ED is included in this story. If all of it is true, then there's nothing to shame about.


darkbrn_at_gmail_dot_com