Release 1Ghz boards. Fancy one?


Yeah i think $690 would really push me out of the market, sadly. I wonder if it would push the Pandora out of viability too. Happy to be wrong, but I can just see people settling for their smartphones. $690 would quite comfortably cover a year on a smartphone with all the network and call related perks alongside it. I think the price was attractive enough before to draw peoples attention and get people on board but between the cheaper foreign gaming devices, corporate handhelds and smartphones, I see less and less room for what will essentially be seen as a vanity device at that price. Still, as is evident above there are still people interested, so I could be wrong and I would be very happy to be wrong as this is a great community and it would be a shame to see it implode.
 
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Yeah i think $690 would really push me out of the market, sadly. I wonder if it would push the Pandora out of viability too. Happy to be wrong, but I can just see people settling for their smartphones. $690 would quite comfortably cover a year on a smartphone with all the network and call related perks alongside it. I think the price was attractive enough before to draw peoples attention and get people on board but between the cheaper foreign gaming devices, corporate handhelds and smartphones, I see less and less room for what will essentially be seen as a vanity device at that price. Still, as is evident above there are still people interested, so I could be wrong and I would be very happy to be wrong as this is a great community and it would be a shame to see it implode.

Well, there will be seperate models for time to come, hopefully the appeal for the 600 MHZ version will remain.


The 600mhz Pandora is still the strongest and most convenient open source handheld device available, the higher price is only for people who want the extra oomp, which is certainly not necessary as 99.5% of the panda software runs fine on 600mhz.


As far as i know it will only be a requirement for DC emulation and certain Dos/PC games.
 
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Yeah i think $690 would really push me out of the market, sadly. I wonder if it would push the Pandora out of viability too. Happy to be wrong, but I can just see people settling for their smartphones. $690 would quite comfortably cover a year on a smartphone with all the network and call related perks alongside it. I think the price was attractive enough before to draw peoples attention and get people on board but between the cheaper foreign gaming devices, corporate handhelds and smartphones, I see less and less room for what will essentially be seen as a vanity device at that price. Still, as is evident above there are still people interested, so I could be wrong and I would be very happy to be wrong as this is a great community and it would be a shame to see it implode.

I just don't know how we can compete then if that is the case, we cannot keep selling the Pandora at cost or near cost.


The prices you see for smart phones without contract is with them making *millions* of units.


We're making thousands as well as putting complete computer and gaming controls on board too.


This just cannot be done at the $500 price point. I don't know what else to say.


Try to consider the software is free and you're getting something totally different to smart phones, you're part of something else.


We're open to suggestions about how we can make more money and sell the Pandora at a lower cost.


I still don't think $600 is a lot of money for what the Pandora is, it's a unique machine, and we're trying to make it more powerful.
 
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Just keep advertising the 600MHZ one as the main pandora, and keep the 1ghz as a limited edition or deluxe edition...


People should not be assuming that they NEED an 1ghz pandora, its the 600mhz one they need, the 1 ghz should just be a bonus for who can/want to afford it.


Its better to switch to the 1ghz pandora as the main pandora when the price point becomes more acceptable by most.


Right now it causes too much discussion by people who are concerned that the pandora will keep getting more expensive.


Perhaps in the future when the 1ghz edition is mainstream, the panda team can still offer limited/deluxe edition that are a bit faster/stronger to raise some extra cash.


Also ensure that developers make sure all the software runs on a 600MHZ pandora, until the 1ghz pandora becomes mainstream.


Ofcourse this rule should exclude some of the stuff that runs trough an emulator.
 
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I think we probably need to settle with $599 to be the price point for the top end unit, which, as we catch up with current tech will become pretty powerful.


Refurbished units at $250ish seem like a nice way in to the Pandora scene.
 
Is it also possible to buy one directly from ED? I have no Idea how long it will take ED to refund my money. I already sent him a PM 11 Days ago but no answer.


Just to be clear the 700$ is without VAT? That would mean 833$ incl. VAT?
 
Is it also possible to buy one directly from ED? I have no Idea how long it will take ED to refund my money. I already sent him a PM 11 Days ago but no answer.


Just to be clear the 700$ is without VAT? That would mean 833$ incl. VAT?

VAT is only for EU people as far as i understood, its tax for international shipping.
 
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Is it also possible to buy one directly from ED? I have no Idea how long it will take ED to refund my money. I already sent him a PM 11 Days ago but no answer.


Just to be clear the 700$ is without VAT? That would mean 833$ incl. VAT?

If you're in the VAT zone yes (some of Europe essentially). Anywhere else, no. I've looked in to the possibility of basing our sales offshore to avoid VAT, like some other companies do, but it's complex.
 
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Is it also possible to buy one directly from ED? I have no Idea how long it will take ED to refund my money. I already sent him a PM 11 Days ago but no answer.


Just to be clear the 700$ is without VAT? That would mean 833$ incl. VAT?

If you're in the VAT zone yes (some of Europe essentially). Anywhere else, no. I've looked in to the possibility of basing our sales offshore to avoid VAT, like some other companies do, but it's complex.

How can i find out if the country i am in is VAT zone?


I am Dutch (Netherlands), i payed VAT for the original order, so i assume i will have to pay VAT for the new one as well.
 
I think we probably need to settle with $599 to be the price point for the top end unit, which, as we catch up with current tech will become pretty powerful.


Refurbished units at $250ish seem like a nice way in to the Pandora scene.

Then it might be a good idea to keep giving enough attention to the refurbs, as in, ensure that or almost all software runs on it.


This to prevent that people get the feeling that the 1ghz is a must have, because that will cause people to start complaining about the price.


People who cant afford to pay 699$ do need to realise that the 600mhz unit is all they need for now.


Also perhaps consider dropping the name refurb, marketing wise it doesnt sound very strong, makes it sound like a leftover, while in fact it does everything an open source user needs.
 
Sadly I wont make it for the beta run because it needs a quite a while to collect all that money. I'm very curious about the reports thought. Wish everyone a happy time with heir DM3730 ; )


The price increase of about 30% does make sense. OP needs to get out of its debts and make some profit at some point. Don't forget that developing Pandora 2 will be extremely expensive.


I would buy a second Pandora for 599.... well 712 Dollar (cuz of the German 19%MwSt) later this year. But I also see the problem of loosing a lot of potential members. The Pandora might be worth the money but what about those who are still attending school or collage or have to provide for their families?


I'm not saying drop the price, sell them for cheap and hey it will work out somehow. But we should at least think of a way to make the Pandora more accessible. Refurbished boards are no solution in a long term. Who knows how many will upgrade.


Advertisement on the Pandora homepage? I know it sucks but well...


Or trying to find a big sponsor?


Maybe even a foundation in some way?


Common you are smart people ; )
 
Why charge $150 to $200 more to get this DM3730 unit? DM3730 can be purchased for under $50 even in quantities in the tens. For instance: http://www.digikey.c...32-5-ND/2596836 Even if you are entirely eating the cost of the OMAP3530 it's replacing there is no reason that these units should cost more than $50 over the baseline price.
There probably is, because it's not just about the production itself.


Unexpected problems and running costs can metaphorically eat small companies for lunch. Even from the information that is publicly known it's apparent that OpenPandora ltd. has financial problems -- only remember all those setbacks that have occurred. Now the Pandora is aging, many people choose to buy a different device instead, and many others already own a Pandora. It's likely that as time continues, the number of Pandoras sold may go down substantially, and then it's all over, because there already is enough negative money to get rid of.


Companies often sell very large quantities of products, and use several tricks to either make sure that people will replace their products sooner rather than later (no more software updates, no more service or spare parts, built-in batteries, components that age quickly, etc.), or to make sure that people will give them money even after the product was bought (the obvious examples: videogame consoles, razors, etc.). No one really wants these practices (including many of the companies!), yet many people support them anyway and waste a lot of money by buying thoughtlessly.


The Pandora is a device that both is designed to be usable for more than two years (unlike, for instance, cell phones, which users typically replace quite frequently) and does not come with follow-up costs built-in (...yet!). The Pandora /might/ have been able to be a 'cheap' device hadn't there been so many problems, but as a matter of fact there have been a lot of problems that have (and still continue to) cost quite a bit of resources.


The problem isn't primarily a high price per se (or at least that's the way I see it), because it can get us something that can be difficult to achieve with less money. The problem is more the marketing bullshit that's going on here.


I'm convinced that it only needs a limited number of people to understand the reason for a higher price for it to work, as long as everything is genuine, honest, and transparent. I don't really have insight into OpenPandora ltd.'s financial considerations, yet it's clear to me that at least for now (and, I guess, for quite some time to come), the Pandora probably requires a noticeably higher price.


I have no doubt whatsoever that there is a market for a 700$ Pandora. Some cannot afford it, which is a problem that needs to be solved, but in general I assume that people would rather pay such a price than see OpenPandora ltd. closed down or using some of the aforementioned techniques. However, there isn't a market for a 700$ Pandora when customers no longer have a reason to trust as they see marketing that will collapse like a house of cards upon logical inspection. Be honest and try to avoid fragmentation wherever possible, rather increase prices. And why not allow people to pay more than they're being asked for, à la humble bundle? Allow people to split the excess between different things, such as 'OpenPandora ltd. general financial support', 'The next scheduled developer competition', or 'Fund for people who cannot afford to pay the Pandora's full price'. A good price is /fair/, but not necessarily /cheap/. People typically understand that, but sometimes easily forget about the complexity of all this when they see a cheap initial price.

Also perhaps consider dropping the name refurb, marketing wise it doesnt sound very strong, makes it sound like a leftover, while in fact it does everything an open source user needs.
Or do call it a refurbished unit, because that's what it is. Are you emotionally compromised?

We're open to suggestions about how we can make more money and sell the Pandora at a lower cost.
For now, here is one that might or might not be doable: the gameplay project. Oh, and more often remind people that the Pandora's price can go down if they manage to come up with great ideas on how to do it.
 
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Will Dreamcast emulation be possible on 1 Ghz Pandora?

Only if someone does some work in that area. When we had the beta of the Dreamcast emulator a couple of years ago it ran quite well with some games at 600mhz, it's a shame it was not continued.


Personally, for me, overclocking to 1.4ghz is all about PC emulation (which of course may not happen, 1.4Ghz would be a high overclock - but I'll be maxing my unit as high as I can!).


PS, when we hit 100 people for this, I'm going to tweet about it, but I won't do that until Friday sometime at the earliest. I'm just letting you know because the tweet may well fill up the 150 slots.
 
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The DM3730 is improved in many areas, not just the CPU speed, and it also overclocks, so although your current Pandora may run at 800Mhz, a DM 3730 may run at 1.3Ghz and so on. Have you actually looked at the differences between the chips?

Most people won't want to dig through thousands of pages of user manual (if you want to it's here http://www.ti.com/li...link/dm3730.pdf), I'll sum up the changes that actually matter:


1) CPU clock at max accepted voltage (OPP1G) is 1GHz vs 600Mhz on Pandora's OMAP3530 (at OPP5)


2) GPU clock at 200MHz instead of 110MHz


3) Memory clock at 200MHz instead of 166MHz


4) CPU L1 cache increased from 16KB/16KB to 32KB/32KB (instruction/data)


There are other differences but they don't really matter for Pandora or Pandora users.

As for the rest of your post, which seems to be 'it's too expensive', I've addressed that several times.

It's a test run, it's expensive. We need to make profits, not just break even or make a loss.

Please explain why this test run is so expensive. There is no design work or modifications, you are replacing one part which is being sold by several distributors in low volumes; I see available stocks over 150 for many, and minimum orders go down to 1 part. The typical price is < $45 for this quantity and ED has led me to believe that you get prices that are typically better than what the distributors publicly advertize. This isn't some part that you pay this huge premium for in very low volume. There shouldn't be any special extra costs in using this part instead of the other one but if I'm wrong about this please tell me.


No one expects OPT to lower their profit margins but it sounds like you want to increase them substantially. Normally during a product's lifetime it goes down in cost, not up, as its constituent parts decrease in price and NRE are recuperated. Then a substantially newer product comes out which costs a similar amount to what the older one started at and the cycle continues; the typical cost of a product in its class will go up gradually with inflation.


We already know that at $500 Pandora makes a profit (never would have signed on investors otherwise), and changing to DM3730 doesn't change the margins in the long term, it's a replacement part that costs about the same as OMAP3530. This whole bit about "we can't make money at $500" seems completely contradicted by the financial breakdowns ED gave.

As for examples of expensive tiny computers, there are numerous ones from over the years, see: Sony UX390N (and other models), various ones from Sharp and Panasonic too. None had gaming controls. Many are posted on these forums.

You just keep rationalizing those price increases.. Pandora is not the same as these UMPCs, nor is it the same as a phone (which people usually buy at subsidized prices, or at least in this country) or a tablet (which you can now get for < $300 with some much more expensive parts than a Pandora, and not just from China)


What you really need to explain is why you think the same product needs to keep getting these big price increases.

The price increase of about 30% does make sense. OP needs to get out of its debts and make some profit at some point. Don't forget that developing Pandora 2 will be extremely expensive.

Isn't that why Craig wants to raise funds for Pandora 2 on Kickstarter?

I really don't think it's too much to ask for Pandora users to consider paying $600 every 3-5 years for something new. It's quite standard and reasonably cheap for the industry.

Maybe if Pandora really does end up with something "new." Increasing the RAM and replacing the processor with DM3730 is hardly going all the way there. IMO what we (the community) needs most is a real Pandora competitor..
 
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Why charge $150 to $200 more to get this DM3730 unit? DM3730 can be purchased for under $50 even in quantities in the tens. For instance: http://www.digikey.c...32-5-ND/2596836 Even if you are entirely eating the cost of the OMAP3530 it's replacing there is no reason that these units should cost more than $50 over the baseline price.
There probably is, because it's not just about the production itself.


Unexpected problems and running costs can metaphorically eat small companies for lunch. Even from the information that is publicly known it's apparent that OpenPandora ltd. has financial problems -- only remember all those setbacks that have occurred. Now the Pandora is aging, many people choose to buy a different device instead, and many others already own a Pandora. It's likely that as time continues, the number of Pandoras sold may go down substantially, and then it's all over, because there already is enough negative money to get rid of.


Companies often sell very large quantities of products, and use several tricks to either make sure that people will replace their products sooner rather than later (no more software updates, no more service or spare parts, built-in batteries, components that age quickly, etc.), or to make sure that people will give them money even after the product was bought (the obvious examples: videogame consoles, razors, etc.). No one really wants these practices (including many of the companies!), yet many people support them anyway and waste a lot of money by buying thoughtlessly.


The Pandora is a device that both is designed to be usable for more than two years (unlike, for instance, cell phones, which users typically replace quite frequently) and does not come with follow-up costs built-in (...yet!). The Pandora /might/ have been able to be a 'cheap' device hadn't there been so many problems, but as a matter of fact there have been a lot of problems that have (and still continue to) cost quite a bit of resources.


The problem isn't primarily a high price per se (or at least that's the way I see it), because it can get us something that can be difficult to achieve with less money. The problem is more the marketing bullshit that's going on here.


I'm convinced that it only needs a limited number of people to understand the reason for a higher price for it to work, as long as everything is genuine, honest, and transparent. I don't really have insight into OpenPandora ltd.'s financial considerations, yet it's clear to me that at least for now (and, I guess, for quite some time to come), the Pandora probably requires a noticeably higher price.

This is a good post. Essentially if we want to have any chance of making this work it has to be a business, not a 'really cool' project.


And in order to make money the price has to become realistic. As you menton, we have no source of extra income.


As I see it we could do the following to make things seem cheaper, but it's pretty crazy:


Have a contact based 1Ghz unit.


You agree to pay, say $100 deposit and then $20 a month for 2 years and we send you the 1Ghz unit right away.


So you pay for the unit over that time, then it's yours to keep.


Would people actually do that?
 
The DM3730 is improved in many areas, not just the CPU speed, and it also overclocks, so although your current Pandora may run at 800Mhz, a DM 3730 may run at 1.3Ghz and so on. Have you actually looked at the differences between the chips?

Most people won't want to dig through thousands of pages of user manual (if you want to it's here http://www.ti.com/li...link/dm3730.pdf), I'll sum up the changes that actually matter:


1) CPU clock at max accepted voltage (OPP1G) is 1GHz vs 600Mhz on Pandora's OMAP3530 (at OPP5)


2) GPU clock at 200MHz instead of 110MHz


3) Memory clock at 200MHz instead of 166MHz


4) CPU L1 cache increased from 16KB/16KB to 32KB/32KB (instruction/data)


There are other differences but they don't really matter for Pandora or Pandora users.


I was hoping you might do that :)


I thought that you of all people would know why doing 150 custom boards is expensive.


Firstly, as you say, the modules are more expensive in small numbers.


Secondly, GC is having issues with the 1Ghz SoCs, only about half are working once put on the PCB - this needs professional time consuming investigation, which is expensive and is what they are doing right now, not to mention half our test run PCBs are potentially now junk ($$$).


Thirdly, booking the factory time for this run is expensive as it's a one off custom run, it isn't part of the 500 batch runs.


Fourthly we have to deal with these 1Ghz customers separately from the normal ones, this means more time and work.


Fifthly we're taking in to account X number may fail as it's a first run.


Sixthly, we don't want to just break even on these custom boards, there is clearly a market for them and we would like to,


for once, make some kind of profit. I would hope you don't have a problem with that?


I believe you were working on some kind of Pandora-like device some time ago, maybe you could update us on that? Or did it turn out


to be incredibly expensive and unfeasible to continue with it?
 
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The Gp

The DM3730 is improved in many areas, not just the CPU speed, and it also overclocks, so although your current Pandora may run at 800Mhz, a DM 3730 may run at 1.3Ghz and so on. Have you actually looked at the differences between the chips?

Most people won't want to dig through thousands of pages of user manual (if you want to it's here http://www.ti.com/li...link/dm3730.pdf), I'll sum up the changes that actually matter:


1) CPU clock at max accepted voltage (OPP1G) is 1GHz vs 600Mhz on Pandora's OMAP3530 (at OPP5)


2) GPU clock at 200MHz instead of 110MHz


3) Memory clock at 200MHz instead of 166MHz


4) CPU L1 cache increased from 16KB/16KB to 32KB/32KB (instruction/data)

I know that benchmark performance doesn't always equate to real world perforamnce but It looks like the gpu makes quite a difference in benchmarks, I found this review on AnandTech and it shows the SGX540 has about 3x the graphical power of the SGX530.


krttA.png
 
I thought that you of all people would know why doing 150 custom boards is expensive.

These aren't custom boards in any sense of the word. They're the same board with one part changed for another.

Firstly, as you say, the modules are more expensive in small numbers.

Slightly. The difference between quantities in the tens and low thousands isn't that high.

Secondly, GC is having issues with the 1Ghz SoCs, only about half are working once put on the PCB - this needs professional time consuming investigation, which is expensive and is what they are doing right now, not to mention half our test run PCBs are potentially now junk ($$$).

Well you're going to have to work this out regardless, don't you? Are you already anticipating this will cost > $10000?

Thirdly, booking the factory time for this run is expensive as it's a one off custom run, it isn't part of the 500 batch runs.

Okay - so this all begs the question as to why you're doing test runs of 150 instead of 500, since the market demand is there for 500, or at least would be at $500 cost. It sounds like you want the 150 buyers to potentially be beta testing against hardware bugs, which is a scary prospect for something you're paying a premium on..

Fourthly we have to deal with these 1Ghz customers separately from the normal ones, this means more time and work.

I dunno, this doesn't sound like much of a per-unit expense..

Fifthly we're taking in to account X number may fail as it's a first run.

And if X units don't fail? Are you taking this money as pre-orders to make the runs again, and therefore can't know what your expenses are after you made them? Or you pushing $700 as a worst case price with the possibility that you'll sell them for less?

Sixthly, we don't want to just break even on these custom boards, there is clearly a market for them and we would like to,
for once, make some kind of profit. I would hope you don't have a problem with that?

You're spinning this idea that you're breaking even with Pandora at $500 (or losing money!). Even though you're spending way more to make it than you could be you are NOT breaking even. IIRC what ED divulged on these boards was about $400 to make a Pandora. 25% is acceptable profit margin.

I believe you were working on some kind of Pandora-like device some time ago, maybe you could update us on that? Or did it turn out
to be incredibly expensive and unfeasible to continue with it?

No, what happened is that the guy was lying about how much money he had. He wanted to collect preorders to make the first batches and I flat out refused to have any involvement in the development of another product with that approach. And frankly, I wasn't under any illusion of anyone getting people to do electrical, mechanical, and software design at the prices OPT paid to design Pandora.
 
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