I think Craig has a plan

[Timstertoo]

It's actually interesting to hear people say if Craig goes bankrupt, nobody will get the Pandoras; but if Craig has no money in OP, then you're relying on ED and Community dripfeeds, which would probably happen anyway. The only thing is whether Craig would hand over the remaining pre-order list (which might be interesting if he does, because that would reveal numbers).Not that I'm advocating bankrupting Craig.

It's pretty much irrelevant to me if he goes belly up or not. I'm never going to see my unit from him. Hopefully ED makes enough sales, otherwise I'm screwed.


For the refunds it does make a difference though. I hope they get their money sometime.

 

[pmprog]

It's pretty much irrelevant to me if he goes belly up or not. I'm never going to see my unit from him. Hopefully ED makes enough sales, otherwise I'm screwed.

So, if you don't mind me asking, why wouldn't you take the cross-upgrade to ED's store and get a unit shipped?

For the refunds it does make a difference though. I hope they get their money sometime.

Good point, I never really thought about that.

 

[EvilDragon]

Just chiming in to give some quick information:

Yes, I knew about Craigs idea here, just don't know the exact details yet (have asked him though and will hopefully get a reply).

This update is to give older customers a chance to get a 1GHz Pandora and produce some cashflow with refurbishing the older units (same thing I already did months with the upgrade offer on my shop).

According to him, some of his waiting preorder customers would be happy with a Classic Pandora, as they are mainly interested in playing classic emulation.

So some of these units will be used for classic preorders (and I sincerely hope only those who are fine with that).

I do not have the information yet how that will be handled, but most probably, the upgrade will either directly happen via my shop (well, anyone interested can do that already) or the money will be sent directly to me and I'll fulfill the order (that's how he handled it with some upgrade payments in December).


You are welcome to do the upgrade directly using www.dragonbox.de, I can assure you that will work

You might have your unit, but then the original company will be sold off - or even given to the person who filed for bankruptcy if the debt is big enough and they accept it as a valid form of credit (e.g. one of the many investors, say, who I don't think got quite such a good deal as even the customers still waiting).  Sure, it MIGHT be ED that picks up what's left of the company and the assets (and even a trademark is considered a saleable asset) but it might not.  And then you're on an unsupported console where anything from the website to the software archives to historical firmwares might come under the copyright of whoever bought up the remains of the assets (which might be a rival project, even, and nothing to do with ED or Craig).  And they would have good legal standing to cause quite a lot of hassle in terms of preventing downloads, relicensing updates, etc.

OP Ltd. doesn't have a trademark on the name, OP GmbH has the trademark on the name and logo in Germany.

The website including all domains, etc. is owned by OP GmbH.

The PCB Design is owned by Michael Weston and he licensed it to OP GmbH to continue the production.

The case design is owned by DaveC and he licensed it to OP GmbH to continue the production.

All the usable parts OP Ltd. still owned have been bought off by OP GmbH end of 2011.

So besides some broken PCBs and returned broken Pandoras, there shouldn't be anything to get from OP Ltd. right now.

Your scenario of a third-party company getting licenses, etc. from OP Ltd. so that the website, the production, etc. will stop or you have an unsupported console will not happen though.

 

[klapse]

Sure, if you hang on and "trust" people, you might see a console one day. But this isn't about being honest or running a good business in times of trouble. This is about threatening customers with great loss (for them) at little cost (to you) in order for the customer's to rectify your own mistakes.

What mistakes exactly are you talking about? I have followed the Pandora since the beginning and over and over again, OPT have been screwed by their business partners. Cases, nubs, cables, and board population were screwed up by OTHER companies.

Your whole boatload of text derives from an ignorant assumption that Craig is to blame for the delays and financial losses. Sorry but that does not coincide with real history.

 

[vcoleiro1]

There should be a pinned post with a detailed explanation of what has had happened in the Pandora project . Ie all the things that went wrong and what amount of money and time was lost for each .


That way we could link back to the post when needed. Being pinned that should hopefully be seldom.

 

[EvilDragon]

There should be a pinned post with a detailed explanation of what has had happened in the Pandora project . Ie all the things that went wrong and what amount of money and time was lost for each .


That way we could link back to the post when needed. Being pinned that should hopefully be seldom.

Well, there is a History in the menu above which has most of that stuff included...

 

[vcoleiro1]

There should be a pinned post with a detailed explanation of what has had happened in the Pandora project . Ie all the things that went wrong and what amount of money and time was lost for each .


That way we could link back to the post when needed. Being pinned that should hopefully be seldom.

Well, there is a History in the menu above which has most of that stuff included...

That's a good history, perhaps it needs to be more visible as that's the first time for example that I'd ever seen it.

One question though in relation to the following statement


"We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost."


How was the 300k lost, did you pay them in full before they delivered these populated boards that turned out to be faulty?


If the above sentence is true, did you ask for a refund?

 

[Neelix]

One question though in relation to the following statement

"We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost."

How was the 300k lost, did you pay them in full before they delivered these populated boards that turned out to be faulty?

This one was also answered recently. What it came down to, as I understand it, was that although CC was paid only for boards they delivered, working or otherwise, they had populated 300k worth of parts purchased elsewhere onto dud PCBs.

- Neelix

 

[vcoleiro1]

One question though in relation to the following statement"We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost."How was the 300k lost, did you pay them in full before they delivered these populated boards that turned out to be faulty?

This one was also answered recently. What it came down to, as I understand it, was that although CC was paid only for boards they delivered, working or otherwise, they had populated 300k worth of parts purchased elsewhere onto dud PCBs.- Neelix

I guess this leads to other questions, I guess from a lay mans view , you wold have returned the populated pcbs and asked CC to remove the parts , create new boards and repopulate them. If this could be done?

Failing that , you would ask them for a payment for losses. One or both of these must have happened , didn't it? Would be good to know what happened here and what CCs response was.

 

[Timstertoo]

It's pretty much irrelevant to me if he goes belly up or not. I'm never going to see my unit from him. Hopefully ED makes enough sales, otherwise I'm screwed.So, if you don't mind me asking, why wouldn't you take the cross-upgrade to ED's store and get a unit shipped?For the refunds it does make a difference though. I hope they get their money sometime.Good point, I never really thought about that.

I am more then happy to upgrade for the price difference between what I originally paid and the production cost of a 1GhZ unit now. As long as payment and shipping goes through ED.

I am not willing to pay more then I origanally paid on top of my original amount, its just not worth that amount to me.

I understand why ED cant do that right now. Hopefully when (if) my turn comes up ED will give me the option to get a 1GhZ for said price difference.

Edit: as a side not. If the 600MhZ run out and ED can only send me a 1GhZ, I will still pay the price difference volantarily as I really appreciate how ED has handled himself through this whole ordeal.

 

[pmprog]

I am more then happy to upgrade for the price difference between what I originally paid and the production cost of a 1GhZ unit now. As long as payment and shipping goes through ED.

I can understand not wanting to pay much more, you could just go for a GC 600MHz. I thought this was something ED was already offering to all pre-orders anyway, am I wrong?

 

[Timstertoo]

I am more then happy to upgrade for the price difference between what I originally paid and the production cost of a 1GhZ unit now. As long as payment and shipping goes through ED.I can understand not wanting to pay much more, you could just go for a GC 600MHz. I thought this was something ED was already offering to all pre-orders anyway, am I wrong?

Not that I know of? I'm in Craig's queue so I think ED wouldn't be able to afford to send everyone a 600MhZ one for the ~$130,- difference between original amount and current production cost. As he would be funding that out of pocket and hoping to redeem that with future sales.

If so it is something to think about. But seeing as, if I have understood correctly, the price of the 600MhZ is about the same as the 1GhZ but just not in productin anymore, why wouldn't he offer the 1GhZ to the people waiting the longest?

Do you have a link? Thanks for pointing that out!

In any event, I don't think a refurbished unit through Craig is an option to anyone who has his head screwed on straight. Especially if it involves sending Craig more money upfront. This is another scaremongering tactic of his where he says "Better take this, I might go bankrupt anytime and then you have nothing!"

 

[EvilDragon]

One question though in relation to the following statement"We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost."How was the 300k lost, did you pay them in full before they delivered these populated boards that turned out to be faulty?

This one was also answered recently. What it came down to, as I understand it, was that although CC was paid only for boards they delivered, working or otherwise, they had populated 300k worth of parts purchased elsewhere onto dud PCBs.- Neelix

I guess this leads to other questions, I guess from a lay mans view , you wold have returned the populated pcbs and asked CC to remove the parts , create new boards and repopulate them. If this could be done?

Failing that , you would ask them for a payment for losses. One or both of these must have happened , didn't it? Would be good to know what happened here and what CCs response was.

Paying for the production of these boards would've been a lot less, the population itself would've only been 30K or something like that.

The expensive thing are the parts (owned by OP Ltd.) which are lost when the PCB is not working (you can't remove the parts and reuse them).

 

[pmprog]

Not that I know of? I'm in Craig's queue so I think ED wouldn't be able to afford to send everyone a 600MhZ one for the ~$130,- difference between original amount and current production cost. As he would be funding that out of pocket and hoping to redeem that with future sales.

If so it is something to think about. But seeing as, if I have understood correctly, the price of the 600MhZ is about the same as the 1GhZ but just not in productin anymore, why wouldn't he offer the 1GhZ to the people waiting the longest?

Do you have a link? Thanks for pointing that out!

I don't have a link, and it's possible I misunderstood what was going on (I did hope that ED would have chipped in with some actual information).
Have the 600MHz boards stopped being made? I think I missed that

So, I guess I'm probably a bit out-of-date and misinformed (not through anyone's fault other than my own no doubt), so I'll say no more. I hope everyone gets sorted one way or another.

 

[Timstertoo]

Not that I know of? I'm in Craig's queue so I think ED wouldn't be able to afford to send everyone a 600MhZ one for the ~$130,- difference between original amount and current production cost. As he would be funding that out of pocket and hoping to redeem that with future sales.If so it is something to think about. But seeing as, if I have understood correctly, the price of the 600MhZ is about the same as the 1GhZ but just not in productin anymore, why wouldn't he offer the 1GhZ to the people waiting the longest?Do you have a link? Thanks for pointing that out!I don't have a link, and it's possible I misunderstood what was going on (I did hope that ED would have chipped in with some actual information).Have the 600MHz boards stopped being made? I think I missed thatSo, I guess I'm probably a bit out-of-date and misinformed (not through anyone's fault other than my own no doubt), so I'll say no more. I hope everyone gets sorted one way or another.

I don't know if the boards have stopped being produced but TI doesn't produce the chips anymore. So once ED runs out of the current ones it's all 1GhZ from then on. I think he had something like 800 left or so before the whole investment run but I'm really not sure about the exact number.

 

[vcoleiro1]

One question though in relation to the following statement"We received the last working PCBs from them July 2011. Over 1000 PCBs were broken... over 300K EUR lost."How was the 300k lost, did you pay them in full before they delivered these populated boards that turned out to be faulty?

This one was also answered recently. What it came down to, as I understand it, was that although CC was paid only for boards they delivered, working or otherwise, they had populated 300k worth of parts purchased elsewhere onto dud PCBs.- Neelix

I guess this leads to other questions, I guess from a lay mans view , you wold have returned the populated pcbs and asked CC to remove the parts , create new boards and repopulate them. If this could be done?

Failing that , you would ask them for a payment for losses. One or both of these must have happened , didn't it? Would be good to know what happened here and what CCs response was.

Paying for the production of these boards would've been a lot less, the population itself would've only been 30K or something like that.

The expensive thing are the parts (owned by OP Ltd.) which are lost when the PCB is not working (you can't remove the parts and reuse them).

In that case, and this seems to have been the question that goes unanswered all the time.  Did anyone ever request for damages to be payed by CC or request them to repopulate new boards with new parts at their expense?. If so , what was there response?

 

[EvilDragon]

Paying for the production of these boards would've been a lot less, the population itself would've only been 30K or something like that.

The expensive thing are the parts (owned by OP Ltd.) which are lost when the PCB is not working (you can't remove the parts and reuse them).

In that case, and this seems to have been the question that goes unanswered all the time.  Did anyone ever request for damages to be payed by CC or request them to repopulate new boards with new parts at their expense?. If so , what was there response?

They claimed the high failure rate was due to a bad PCB design from Michael.

So the only way would be through lawyers, and that's up to Craig.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Paying for the production of these boards would've been a lot less, the population itself would've only been 30K or something like that.

The expensive thing are the parts (owned by OP Ltd.) which are lost when the PCB is not working (you can't remove the parts and reuse them).

In that case, and this seems to have been the question that goes unanswered all the time.  Did anyone ever request for damages to be payed by CC or request them to repopulate new boards with new parts at their expense?. If so , what was there response?

They claimed the high failure rate was due to a bad PCB design from Michael.

So the only way would be through lawyers, and that's up to Craig.

Ah I see, that sucks. I would have definately taken them to court.  

On a different note, what happened to all those populated boards that didn't work?.   I wouldn't mind getting my hands on one to tinker with, and see if I can get running.  

If you sold them for $40 each or something, might be a way to recoup some money.  If there is a 1000 of them (how many are there?) , that would be $40,000 , enough to fund at least 120 Pre-order Pandora's to be built and sent out.

 

[EvilDragon]

We have quite a few of them and the ones that are not totally broken are currently being repaired by GC.

If you want a broken PCB: I'll have broken 1GHz and Rebirth-PCBs in my shop tomorrow which can be bought by anyone.

They are fully populated (including nubs, etc.), but they don't even boot, so most probably the SoC is not populated properly, so most probably the only way to fix them is by removing the SoC and repopulating it.

 

[vcoleiro1]

Cool, I'll check your shop out tommorow