Release 1Ghz boards. Fancy one?

[Exophase]

I know that benchmark performance doesn't always equate to real world perforamnce but It looks like the gpu makes quite a difference in benchmarks, I found this review on AnandTech and it shows the SGX540 has about 3x the graphical power of the SGX530.

Of course, it makes a big difference in 3D benchmarks, which are almost never CPU limited. Pandora doesn't have a whole lot of games that do serious OpenGL ES work, so you'll have to ask yourself how much that matters to you.


BTW, not sure if you're saying this, but DM3730 doesn't have an SGX540, it's the same SGX540 as in OMAP3530, just with a (much) higher clock speed. It should still be almost 2x faster in most cases (but still much slower than what you'll find in most phones a year or newer)

 

[Christoph.Krn]

This is a good post. Essentially if we want to have any chance of making this work it has to be a business, not a 'really cool' project.

Not quite... it has to be a business that is based on top of a really cool (as in genuinely great) project, i.e. the former only works when the latter is what everything is based on. That's basically the same principle as Kickstarter or the Humble Bundle.


I might have been misinterpretable: Making things seem cheaper is just a bad thing to do, let's try to find other ways. Transparency on the other hand is a must.


I'm aware this 'explanation' is very oversimplified.

 

[huniper]

I know that benchmark performance doesn't always equate to real world perforamnce but It looks like the gpu makes quite a difference in benchmarks, I found this review on AnandTech and it shows the SGX540 has about 3x the graphical power of the SGX530.

Of course, it makes a big difference in 3D benchmarks, which are almost never CPU limited. Pandora doesn't have a whole lot of games that do serious OpenGL ES work, so you'll have to ask yourself how much that matters to you.


BTW, not sure if you're saying this, but DM3730 doesn't have an SGX540, it's the same SGX540 as in OMAP3530, just with a (much) higher clock speed. It should still be almost 2x faster in most cases (but still much slower than what you'll find in most phones a year or newer)

Sorry I got it confused with the 4430, I was thinking improvements for the PSX emulator which I believe uses GL ES.

 

[craigix]

I thought that you of all people would know why doing 150 custom boards is expensive.

These aren't custom boards in any sense of the word. They're the same board with one part changed for another.

Firstly, as you say, the modules are more expensive in small numbers.

Slightly. The difference between quantities in the tens and low thousands isn't that high.

Secondly, GC is having issues with the 1Ghz SoCs, only about half are working once put on the PCB - this needs professional time consuming investigation, which is expensive and is what they are doing right now, not to mention half our test run PCBs are potentially now junk ($$$).

Well you're going to have to work this out regardless, don't you? Are you already anticipating this will cost > $10000?

Rather than arguing all this, and I think your arguments are ill informed and quite frankly sounding a little trollish, how much do you think the 1Ghz unit should be?


Then, are you willing to stick your neck on the line and guarantee you could bring it in at that price?

 

[Foxgod]

Lets drop the price discussion, its not worth it.


I fully understand they want to raise money for once, just take it this way, i want this pandora thing to work, and i want to see more pandora appear in the future, only way to ensure that it to show a bit of support.


Cant afford it, then just go for the regular pandora, and upgrade sometimes in the future when the R&D costs settle down a bit.


With the value of my house dropping i can understand the pain of having debt, and the idea of having a shared debt of 300K makes me feel uneasy, so i am glad this thing is still going.

 

[peacelovefleshbones]

I'll come back in a year with money...


Upgrade=good

 

[Foxgod]

I thought that you of all people would know why doing 150 custom boards is expensive.

These aren't custom boards in any sense of the word. They're the same board with one part changed for another.

Firstly, as you say, the modules are more expensive in small numbers.

Slightly. The difference between quantities in the tens and low thousands isn't that high.

Secondly, GC is having issues with the 1Ghz SoCs, only about half are working once put on the PCB - this needs professional time consuming investigation, which is expensive and is what they are doing right now, not to mention half our test run PCBs are potentially now junk ($$$).

Well you're going to have to work this out regardless, don't you? Are you already anticipating this will cost > $10000?

Rather than arguing all this, and I think your arguments are ill informed and quite frankly sounding a little trollish, how much do you think the 1Ghz unit should be?


Then, are you willing to stick your neck on the line and guarantee you could bring it in at that price?

I think he doesnt understand that large brand products all work with manufactured standards, while the pandora is not based on any existing standard, and thus costs much more money in R&D.

 

[notaz]

Personally, for me, overclocking to 1.4ghz is all about PC emulation.

That's too speculative, so far we only know my unit maxes out at 1280MHz (it's not stable at 1.3GHz), and ED's has been tested at 1250MHz.

 

[Foxgod]

Personally, for me, overclocking to 1.4ghz is all about PC emulation.

That's too speculative, so far we only know my unit maxes out at 1280MHz (it's not stable at 1.3GHz), and ED's has been tested at 1250MHz.

I am curious how some of the later dos games will do in dosbox on the panda, il be doing some testing when i have my unit.

 

[craigix]

Personally, for me, overclocking to 1.4ghz is all about PC emulation.

That's too speculative, so far we only know my unit maxes out at 1280MHz (it's not stable at 1.3GHz), and ED's has been tested at 1250MHz.

You're right, 1.4Ghz would be pure luck, as overclocking is with current Pandora units. I was just basing it on some of the crazy speeds the 600Mhz units reached in the PC emulation thread.

 

[Foxgod]

Personally, for me, overclocking to 1.4ghz is all about PC emulation.

That's too speculative, so far we only know my unit maxes out at 1280MHz (it's not stable at 1.3GHz), and ED's has been tested at 1250MHz.

You're right, 1.4Ghz would be pure luck, as overclocking is with current Pandora units. I was just basing it on some of the crazy speeds the 600Mhz units reached in the PC emulation thread.

PC emulation?


You mean stuff like DosBox?

 

[notaz]

We already have working samples and they are around 50% faster than the current Pandora, they also overclock higher.

overclocking itself taken into account.


Note that the units will also be available from ED, it seems Craig is taking the first ones, further runs will be cheaper but available later.

 

[Foxgod]

We already have working samples and they are around 50% faster than the current Pandora, they also overclock higher.

overclocking itself taken into account.


Note that the units will also be available from ED, it seems Craig is taking the first ones, further runs will be cheaper but available later.

These days the internal data flow is an even bigger factor then the amount of clock cycles, it seems the new board scores pretty well on that too, from what ive read.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Lets drop the price discussion, its not worth it.

I don't want that to happen. Exophase's arguments are as valid as Ed's, Craig's, notaz' or anyone elses; and they all are required to understand the situation.


For instance, personally I'm aware that OpenPandora ltd. needs quite a lot of money to become stable, yet I still have no idea why *exactly* 600$-700$ would be a fair price. Given everything that has happened, everything I know about the way the Pandora is being sold, and everything I know about small businesses, my *guess* is that the targeted 600$-700$ are indeed an acceptable price for what I would like the Pandora to be (a device that doesn't require the negative things I've mentioned), but I have to make sure that I'm not missing something, why is why I do not want anyone to stop talking (especially as I have little knowledge about the hardware involved).

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

So this upgrade would make Amiga 1200/cd32 emulation more feasible at proper speeds?

 

[craigix]

So this upgrade would make Amiga 1200/cd32 emulation more feasible at proper speeds?

I think it will, yes.


Ed might have some stats on Amiga emulation with our current emulators.


There is an A1200 port somewhere isn't there? It's all C based though and was slow, at least at 600mhz, might be interesting to see how that runs on the new chip.

 

[renegadechic]

Yeah i think $690 would really push me out of the market, sadly. I wonder if it would push the Pandora out of viability too. Happy to be wrong, but I can just see people settling for their smartphones. $690 would quite comfortably cover a year on a smartphone with all the network and call related perks alongside it. I think the price was attractive enough before to draw peoples attention and get people on board but between the cheaper foreign gaming devices, corporate handhelds and smartphones, I see less and less room for what will essentially be seen as a vanity device at that price. Still, as is evident above there are still people interested, so I could be wrong and I would be very happy to be wrong as this is a great community and it would be a shame to see it implode.

I just don't know how we can compete then if that is the case, we cannot keep selling the Pandora at cost or near cost.


The prices you see for smart phones without contract is with them making *millions* of units.


We're making thousands as well as putting complete computer and gaming controls on board too.


This just cannot be done at the $500 price point. I don't know what else to say.


Try to consider the software is free and you're getting something totally different to smart phones, you're part of something else.


We're open to suggestions about how we can make more money and sell the Pandora at a lower cost.


I still don't think $600 is a lot of money for what the Pandora is, it's a unique machine, and we're trying to make it more powerful.

Well, I am not aiming to fight for sure. You should know I've always backed the project quite aggressively in the past.


I guess, more than anything, I am just expressing a degree of fear. If all the stuff above is true then I am anxious of the demand being there for the Pandora. There was enough problem getting people to hold on to their pre-orders when things went wrong when it was £200/$330, If things start to get delayed and trust for the project diminishes again, a much higher proportion of people would almost certainly go for refunds at that price range. On top of that, if demand does end up dropping due to that price, is it feasible that you guys will be able to guarantee and afford enough parts at a more reasonable price? If you only had 2000 pre-orders but needed 4000 to make it affordable, then what? I guess it just needs to be proven that a higher price will bring in the people and that things aren't left in a position where the things you cannot help, as you listed, aren't stacked so against you guys that you have a product you can't shift in good enough volumes to continue.

 

[TrashyMG]

1)
Buying a whole new 1Ghz unit: $699 plus shipping - these are custom built and expensive. They have the silver case. They will be marked as 1Ghz special test run. I'm sure I and Ed can sign them.


2) (cheaper):


We swap your old unit for a new 1Ghz one.


What you have to do:


Pay $500 + shipping, Send back your unit, we will send you a new 1Ghz silver case unit.


We will keep your old PCB, we may use your LCD, keymat, buttons etc. on your upgraded unit if they are still in good shape.


^ this might be ideal if you have an old, tired Pandora.

Honestly I think it's cheaper for most to just get a new one.. for me, I upgraded both orders I had so I payed $500 a piece originally.. this upgrade suggests I'd pay $1000 for a 1Ghz by paying an addition $500.. or just pay $700 for just a new one without swapping it..


Well either way, It's out of my range for sometime.

 

[Gyges]

If this upgrade can eventually be shown to make Dreamcast emulation feasible, I will hurl at you all my available disposable income.

 

[ghostpatch]

You're spinning this idea that you're breaking even with Pandora at $500 (or losing money!). Even though you're spending way more to make it than you could be you are NOT breaking even. IIRC what ED divulged on these boards was about $400 to make a Pandora. 25% is acceptable profit margin.

OP isn't making any profit!!! and they wont for some time. The 25% petential profit goes staight into financing the old preorders. I don't think selling the DM3730 version at a higher price to aid OpenPandora ltd isn't that evil. You dont want to pay the price? Stick to the OMAP3530. I got one and I love it! ; )


Who knows what future brings. Maybe after a while it drops in price due to mass production and elimination of debts. I fully understand why Craigx wants to have a financial cushion after what happened. If we learned one thing its unexpected things happen and they are very costly

Lets drop the price discussion, its not worth it.
I fully understand they want to raise money for once, just take it this way, i want this pandora thing to work, and i want to see more pandora appear in the future, only way to ensure that it to show a bit of support.

yep *thumbs up* ; )