The plan a bit more detailed (2011-09-27)

[Shadowfox]

If I remember correctly they should be happy to give you a refund. It will save OPT I thought around $75. But finding them on eBay is a challenge. eBay classifies it as an emulation device and so it is illegal to sell on eBay. They get there but are removed within hours or days. There is a trade section in the forum, that seems more promising.

Not really: ebay's filters mistake our pandora for a "pandora battery" for the PSP, and that's the one that can't be sold. Getting a human to check the item should work in getting it back on sale, since it's not our pandora that is actually banned.

So, in effect, any product with the word Pandora in its description and involves a battery for operation is pre-emptively blocked or something?


Makes me wonder if other products with the word "pandora" in their title also get this neglect at ebay. h34r:

 

[Darkknight512]

Im Back, and i dit the Mats: For my favored PS2 Games, and the PS1 Games, and all Stuff i have on my Pandora 1, i would need about 72gb on the Pandora 2, but since 64gb sdhc Cards are realy expensive, maybe whe need a mini flashdrive whit this sice..

I suspect you are joking. I would figure we are at least two or three years from being able to shoe horn such power into such a portable device... Even a 1.6Ghz would be an issue. Especially for battery life. And as I understand, the current PS2 emulators challenge a 3ghz.


This does raise a question for me though, at todays tech, what would be the largest processor they could put in the pandora without effecting battery life significantly? Just wondering how far the tech has come.

You can't use clock rate to directly compare CPU's from different architectures. There are major differences between them, also the clock rate does not directly correlate either, it is more complex, one of the major changes between chip generations is transistors with less leakage current and less voltage required. This leads to faster and better chips that tend to use much less power.


If what you were saying was true, our i7's at 3 ghz should be using 4 times the power of a Pentium 4 and only be 4 times faster. Yet it uses less power, and it much more then 4 times faster.


With today's tech, if we can drop in the newest chip and go right now with no development time, would be the new Samsung chip, it has 2 cores running at 1.6 Ghz, acording to Samsung, uses 40% less power then their previous chip running at 1.2 Ghz. The major change was a shift from 45 nm to 32 nm.


Soon Nvidia is releasing Tegra 3 in tablets, it has 4 cores running at 1.5 Ghz and a fifth core running at 0.5 Ghz, probably to save power while doing smaller tasks. I assume all of these chips are capable of disabling cores when idle.

Tegra 3 (Kal-El) series

• Processor: Quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore, up to 1.5 GHz (fifth, low-power transistor 'Companion' core limited to 500 MHz [18])
  
• 12-Core Nvidia GPU with support for 3D stereo
  
• Ultra Low Power GPU mode
  
• 40 nm by TSMC
  
• Video output up to 2560x1600
  
• NEON instruction sets from ARM
  
• 1080p H.264 High Profile video decode
  
• The Kal-El chip (CPU and GPU) is to be about 5 times faster than Tegra 2[19]
  
• To be released in Q3 2011 for tablets and Q1 2012 for smartphones
  

wikipedia


Each core is not much different to the older Cortex A8 cores so they should be comparable by clock rate, to get their aproximate speed. So these chips should be 8 times faster then what we have on the Pandora, both systems not overclocked.


I think, like laptops are behind desktops by about 2-3 years in processing power, mobile devices, once caught up will be behind desktops by something like 3-5 years. Processing power in mobile devices is increasing at an increadable rate, but will slow down once they catch up to our more powerful computing devices.

 

[Shadowfox]

Im Back, and i dit the Mats: For my favored PS2 Games, and the PS1 Games, and all Stuff i have on my Pandora 1, i would need about 72gb on the Pandora 2, but since 64gb sdhc Cards are realy expensive, maybe whe need a mini flashdrive whit this sice..

I suspect you are joking. I would figure we are at least two or three years from being able to shoe horn such power into such a portable device... Even a 1.6Ghz would be an issue. Especially for battery life. And as I understand, the current PS2 emulators challenge a 3ghz.


This does raise a question for me though, at todays tech, what would be the largest processor they could put in the pandora without effecting battery life significantly? Just wondering how far the tech has come.

You can't use clock rate to directly compare CPU's from different architectures. There are major differences between them, also the clock rate does not directly correlate either, it is more complex, one of the major changes between chip generations is transistors with less leakage current and less voltage required. This leads to faster and better chips that tend to use much less power.


If what you were saying was true, our i7's at 3 ghz should be using 4 times the power of a Pentium 4 and only be 4 times faster. Yet it uses less power, and it much more then 4 times faster.


With today's tech, if we can drop in the newest chip and go right now with no development time, would be the new Samsung chip, it has 2 cores running at 1.6 Ghz, acording to Samsung, uses 40% less power then their previous chip running at 1.2 Ghz. The major change was a shift from 45 nm to 32 nm.


Soon Nvidia is releasing Tegra 3 in tablets, it has 4 cores running at 1.5 Ghz and a fifth core running at 0.5 Ghz, probably to save power while doing smaller tasks. I assume all of these chips are capable of disabling cores when idle.

Tegra 3 (Kal-El) series

• Processor: Quad-core ARM Cortex-A9 MPCore, up to 1.5 GHz (fifth, low-power transistor 'Companion' core limited to 500 MHz [18])
  
• 12-Core Nvidia GPU with support for 3D stereo
  
• Ultra Low Power GPU mode
  
• 40 nm by TSMC
  
• Video output up to 2560x1600
  
• NEON instruction sets from ARM
  
• 1080p H.264 High Profile video decode
  
• The Kal-El chip (CPU and GPU) is to be about 5 times faster than Tegra 2[19]
  
• To be released in Q3 2011 for tablets and Q1 2012 for smartphones
  

wikipedia


Each core is not much different to the older Cortex A8 cores so they should be comparable by clock rate, to get their aproximate speed. So these chips should be 8 times faster then what we have on the Pandora, both systems not overclocked.


I think, like laptops are behind desktops by about 2-3 years in processing power, mobile devices, once caught up will be behind desktops by something like 3-5 years. Processing power in mobile devices is increasing at an increadable rate, but will slow down once they catch up to our more powerful computing devices.

I look forward to the day that we can sticky a square piece of plastic, no more than 3mm thick, onto our thumbnails that is capable of holograpic interface + display and is 512 times more powerful than the Tegra 5 chip and internally stores 16 TB of data in it's 2mm by 2mm phasic HDD.


of course it'll be another couple of months before the icp holographic interface is designed and made available. :lol:

 

[EvilDragon]

The Tegra would NOT be 8 times faster, as you can't use dualcores as efficiently as a single core - some VERY good coding skills would be necessary here.


Also, we don't know about overclocking as well. I haven't seen a Pandora that can't clock to 1GHz with OPP5 stable - and AFAIK the DM3730 (basically the one in the Pandora just with a higher default clock) usually starts to crash from 1,3 GHz on...


It seems to me that some of the modern chips are simply clocked higher as default to gain speed whereas they were more careful with those first Cortex A8.

 

[diligentcircle]

I look forward to the day that we can sticky a square piece of plastic, no more than 3mm thick, onto our thumbnails that is capable of holograpic interface + display and is 512 times more powerful than the Tegra 5 chip and internally stores 16 TB of data in it's 2mm by 2mm phasic HDD.


of course it'll be another couple of months before the icp holographic interface is designed and made available. :lol:

It wouldn't be a hard drive. It would be flash memory or, more likely, some new type of storage that gets invented later on.

 

[Darkknight512]

The Tegra would NOT be 8 times faster, as you can't use dualcores as efficiently as a single core - some VERY good coding skills would be necessary here.


Also, we don't know about overclocking as well. I haven't seen a Pandora that can't clock to 1GHz with OPP5 stable - and AFAIK the DM3730 (basically the one in the Pandora just with a higher default clock) usually starts to crash from 1,3 GHz on...


It seems to me that some of the modern chips are simply clocked higher as default to gain speed whereas they were more careful with those first Cortex A8.

Yes, I should probably say 8 times to proccessing power. Faster itterations of chips tend to be very similar, and only differ by binning or possibly minor archetectural changes, which shows why lowly clocked CPU's can be clocked so far, and usually stop overclocking at a similar limit as "better" chips.


Do we know what OPP equivilent the DM3730 runs at? Maybe it is practically the same core just at a higher default voltage.

 

[Shadowfox]

I look forward to the day that we can sticky a square piece of plastic, no more than 3mm thick, onto our thumbnails that is capable of holograpic interface + display and is 512 times more powerful than the Tegra 5 chip and internally stores 16 TB of data in it's 2mm by 2mm phasic HDD.


of course it'll be another couple of months before the icp holographic interface is designed and made available. :lol:

It wouldn't be a hard drive. It would be flash memory or, more likely, some new type of storage that gets invented later on.

It would be a PPD (Phased Potential Drive) ^_^ a tween-dimensional access device that allocates holographic paged memory from a referenced space in multiple phases, thus multiplying the original memory space by the number of "phases" the device is capable of reading from / writing to... You know kinda like that antiquated Blueray Disc technology that utilized multiple layers. :lol:

 

[dysphasic]

If I remember correctly they should be happy to give you a refund. It will save OPT I thought around $75. But finding them on eBay is a challenge. eBay classifies it as an emulation device and so it is illegal to sell on eBay. They get there but are removed within hours or days. There is a trade section in the forum, that seems more promising.

If a refund saves OPT $75, why is my refund not getting processed rapidly? I have contacted Craig via every possible means, including IM on here as a final act of desperation for a refund. So if it saves that much money, why am I not getting a refund?

 

[EvilDragon]

If a refund saves OPT $75, why is my refund not getting processed rapidly? I have contacted Craig via every possible means, including IM on here as a final act of desperation for a refund. So if it saves that much money, why am I not getting a refund?

A refund would save OPT money in the end, yes, that's right, as the current retail price is higher.


However, let's make a simple example:


Consider 100 Pandoras have been sold for 100 USD (production costs). That's 10.000 USD.


These 10.000 USD will be used to pay the parts and production. That means there is nothing left of that money.


One year later:


50 Pandoras have been delivered, 50 are still missing, because one of the companies involved in the process didn't do their job properly. The new sales price has been set higher, to cover the costs that company causes.


So let's say there are 50 Pandoras still missing and the new sales price would be 200 USD.


Any refund would save OpenPandora 100 USD, as they would have to refund 100 USD and could sell it for 200 USD.


There's just one issue: As long as the PCBs are not produced, the Pandoras cannot be sold for 200 USD.


So there would be no money left right now for refunds. However, the money would be available once the PCB has been produced and sold to a new customer.


So basically, the refund would have to be delayed.


This is similar to what could happen here.


Craig put A LOT of his own money into the Pandora (I think more than 300K!), however, there are no unlimited money ressources.


If too many people ask for refunds, there's nothing left to pay the refund with.


However, as I'm taking care about the production AND additional money for refunds right now, this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore in a while.


Right now, the issue is the huge email backlog, according to Craig.


But who knows how many requests for refunds will happen within the next few weeks?


That's why I am asking everyone to hold on until I've set everything up.


It would certainly the best and most painfree way for ALL involved parties.

 

[dysphasic]

If a refund saves OPT $75, why is my refund not getting processed rapidly? I have contacted Craig via every possible means, including IM on here as a final act of desperation for a refund. So if it saves that much money, why am I not getting a refund?

A refund would save OPT money in the end, yes, that's right, as the current retail price is higher.


However, let's make a simple example:


Consider 100 Pandoras have been sold for 100 USD (production costs). That's 10.000 USD.


These 10.000 USD will be used to pay the parts and production. That means there is nothing left of that money.


One year later:


50 Pandoras have been delivered, 50 are still missing, because one of the companies involved in the process didn't do their job properly. The new sales price has been set higher, to cover the costs that company causes.


So let's say there are 50 Pandoras still missing and the new sales price would be 200 USD.


Any refund would save OpenPandora 100 USD, as they would have to refund 100 USD and could sell it for 200 USD.


There's just one issue: As long as the PCBs are not produced, the Pandoras cannot be sold for 200 USD.


So there would be no money left right now for refunds. However, the money would be available once the PCB has been produced and sold to a new customer.


So basically, the refund would have to be delayed.


This is similar to what could happen here.


Craig put A LOT of his own money into the Pandora (I think more than 300K!), however, there are no unlimited money ressources.


If too many people ask for refunds, there's nothing left to pay the refund with.


However, as I'm taking care about the production AND additional money for refunds right now, this issue wouldn't be an issue anymore in a while.


Right now, the issue is the huge email backlog, according to Craig.


But who knows how many requests for refunds will happen within the next few weeks?


That's why I am asking everyone to hold on until I've set everything up.


It would certainly the best and most painfree way for ALL involved parties.

Woah there, but it would be the best thing for Craig for me and others not to request a refund. And the best way he could have done that is to ensure people get information about their order when they ask for it, even if it's a few days late and is along the lines of "you will probably have to wait another month". If he cannot refund every order should that become necessary, then I want my refund even sooner because frankly he may become bankrupt very soon. You can check Gmail accounts from any computer with internet access, I cannot afford to lose £400 because he has decided it is beneath him to reply to customers requesting information about their order.

 

[EvilDragon]

Well, that's why I'm highlighting here that I've got all that planned and included in my business plan as well.


Not only for my but only for Craigs customers.


It's probably just a few weeks until the investments are set up and then there won't have to be the fear of the money being lost.


However, if all are fearing now that they will lose their money and ask for a refund, it will become more complicated.

 

[quartercast]

forgive me if I haven't understood but you only waited for 3 days for an email before deciding to cancel? Most of us have waited for a week or two for replies to general enquiries via email.


You even sent an intentionally mistitled and misaddressed email? And complain that they take too long to get back to you? Hahahaha

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

Most of us have waited for a week or two for replies to general enquiries via email. @quartercast. Exactly. Nuff said

 

[MasterP]

Who would wear wristwatch these days? Yuppies and wannabe filthy rich ppl?

who wouldn't?


my wristwatch can store 30 telephone numbers, all with their own 8-letter names too, it has a built-in calculator, and 4 alarms, that can be set individually, including setting it to go off on certain dates.


and guess what?


i'm not a "yuppie" or a "wannabe filthy rich person". <_<

Did you bite a chunk off your cell phone and turn it into a wristwatch or something?

is there really a need for your sassy come-backs?


(No, i'm not saying i'm better about it, but still. <_< )


if everything goes my way, it'll be replaced by a wrist-watch video-game system.


4x2 led screen, 16kb of flash-ROM, 1kb of SRAM, 512 b of EEPROM(might make external EEPROM expansion later), 2-4 pushbuttons, and 14 MIPs of sheer awesomeness. B)


yes, i know that's so far underpowered that nobody but me would want one, but i absolutely love old technology, and to be honest, making a GOOD game with such heavy limitations would prove that i'm a good game programmer.


let's face it, any programmer can make a game for a system with 2gb of ram, 4gb of rom, and 1ghz of cpu power, but it takes sheer skill to make a good game for my system.


and just for kicks-and-giggles, i'll display time in binary.

 

[diligentcircle]

dysphasic, take a look at the big picture: lots of people have gotten their Pandoras. Craig and ED aren't going bankrupt or anything like that, they're just in the middle of an incredibly busy period. They aren't a giant corporation like Nintendo that's accumulated large amounts of spare cash. They're a couple people running small businesses that right now happen to be focusing on getting investors, mostly as a response to a lousy company they have been working with causing a lot of losses. Neither OpenPandora Ltd. nor OpenPandora GmbH are making bad decisions, and I see no reason to be afraid of them going under.

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

I look forward to the day that we can sticky a square piece of plastic, no more than 3mm thick, onto our thumbnails that is capable of holograpic interface + display and is 512 times more powerful than the Tegra 5 chip and internally stores 16 TB of data in it's 2mm by 2mm phasic HDD.


of course it'll be another couple of months before the icp holographic interface is designed and made available. :lol:

It wouldn't be a hard drive. It would be flash memory or, more likely, some new type of storage that gets invented later on.

It will be organic, maybe they will find a way to format a mouse brain...

 

[mmielke]

Don't worry, ED. I'm still in it with the rest of us, and have no intention to abandon the project. As for the photos of Global Components, the company seems to be way more organized, and that to me is a healthy sign that they actually care about your order. As for CC, their component spools were all over the place. I have no doubt that this production run will be a new start for the Pandora Team.

 

[EvilDragon]

Don't worry, ED. I'm still in it with the rest of us, and have no intention to abandon the project. As for the photos of Global Components, the company seems to be way more organized, and that to me is a healthy sign that they actually care about your order. As for CC, their component spools were all over the place. I have no doubt that this production run will be a new start for the Pandora Team.

Well, I asked GC a question via mail today and got a reply 30 minutes later - and heck, today is a holiday in Germany, so that's pretty cool

 

[TheQuestForChaos]

That is impressive service! Sounds like more good news is right around the bend...

 

[Blue Protoman]

is there really a need for your sassy come-backs?


(No, i'm not saying i'm better about it, but still. <_< )


if everything goes my way, it'll be replaced by a wrist-watch video-game system.


4x2 led screen, 16kb of flash-ROM, 1kb of SRAM, 512 b of EEPROM(might make external EEPROM expansion later), 2-4 pushbuttons, and 14 MIPs of sheer awesomeness. B)


yes, i know that's so far underpowered that nobody but me would want one, but i absolutely love old technology, and to be honest, making a GOOD game with such heavy limitations would prove that i'm a good game programmer.


let's face it, any programmer can make a game for a system with 2gb of ram, 4gb of rom, and 1ghz of cpu power, but it takes sheer skill to make a good game for my system.


and just for kicks-and-giggles, i'll display time in binary.

I meant no offense, I was just being a smartass. Anyway, sounds like a cool project! Definitely good for your college application in the future.