Quotations, Production speed and the future (2011-09-01)

[JackTheKnife]

It means two way scenario but always build by Craig anyway? Thanks for the clearance

 

[EvilDragon]

Nothing really changes except that the boards are being produced in Germany and I will make the contract with the company.


Craig and me still share the units as we did before

 

[crosspoint]

I wonder what happens when the new board company spits out thousands of boards and not only 50 in two weeks like CC now does. Who will put them all into the cases? ED, you won't be able to do this all alone considering the fact that there are still 1300 preordered units left to be shipped.

 

[Yoyobuae]

I don't really understand the investing part. What will an investor be getting from investing in the product? Expected ROI?

Every potential investor will get a business plan which will tell exactly he can expect.


Once the next 3000 units are shipped, all the preorders are fullfilled and there's enough money to continue production.


From then on, profit is being made, and that is where the investors will get their share from.

Just curious: How much would the investors share be?

Yeah, I know that's probably the kind of info that's only meant for the investors themselves. But would be interesting to have vague idea, like "above/below 20%". I find business details like this quite interesting and that's part of the apeal for me, to get a small look at what a business like OpenPandora goes thru. ^_^

 

[F_Slim]

ED, you won't be able to do this all alone considering the fact that there are still 1300 preordered units left to be shipped.

Don't worry, that's where all his clones some in:

 

[JackTheKnife]

I wonder what happens when the new board company spits out thousands of boards and not only 50 in two weeks like CC now does. Who will put them all into the cases? ED, you won't be able to do this all alone considering the fact that there are still 1300 preordered units left to be shipped.

According to all answers for my questions PCBs will go to Craig and his team will put all together.

 

[EvilDragon]

That picture scares me


No worries, right now, Craig and team will build the units.


I could also hire some more clones people to build units.


And I also got an offer from Global Components for assembly, so if things take off, they can deliver fully tested and assembled units.

 

[Wrath Of Khan]

That picture scares me


No worries, right now, Craig and team will build the units.


I could also hire some more clones people to build units.


And I also got an offer from Global Components for assembly, so if things take off, they can deliver fully tested and assembled units.

Good news. Hope it all works out. Heres hoping for a more powerful pandora at some point.

 

[gunni]

I could also hire some more clones people to build units.


And I also got an offer from Global Components for assembly, so if things take off, they can deliver fully tested and assembled units.

you heard it here first! Global Components are building the ED clones! :lol:

 

[Blue Protoman]

And I also got an offer from Global Components for assembly, so if things take off, they can deliver fully tested and assembled units.

First they offered advice on the boards, then they offered to invest, now this? What next, are they going to SELL the damned things, too?

 

[marovada]

But they lied about it, said the boards were done and waiting. If they had been upfront about it, that they weren't going to risk all the time and money on OPT possibly getting the new nubs, I'm sure ED could have diplomatically worked something out.

Yes, probably.


The bad thing is that they continued to produce the boards when they were corrodated.


They mentioned they need to clean them to make them work properly - but every other company would've probably just told us that the bare PCBs need to be thrown away and produced a new.


Then these issues also wouldn't have occured.


We were hoping for their professional advise. We told them multiple times we've never done something like that before, so they should know more about production than us.


If they'd said these boards will never work, we need to buy new ones then we'd probably have done that.


However, they just said that's an issue and they need to clean all the boards, so production on these boards continued.


2000 new PCBs would've cost us approx. 16.000 USD which would've been okay.

I don't think I will be answered but...are there any legal actions taking place? Is anybody suing here?


I certainly hope not. These legal issues can be very long and drawn out sometimes. = $$$$$


I know some good but unethical jewish lawyers j/k.

wtf? Why mention that they're Jewish? Some kind of implicit stereotype? Jewish=Jewish. Unethical=unethical. The two are NOT related.


Don't even understand your point (aside from the taking the opportunity to stereotype). Are you implying that to succeed, ED and Craig need unethical lawyers?


Edit: and 'j/k' doesn't detract from the intent of your post. It's like saying 'all of X religion are thieves. j/k'. Yeah right. j/k indeed! Mods should delete that reference.

 

[marovada]

First, my business plan includes that my company buys the remaining parts from Craigs company so that everything is handled from one company.

Are you saying that Craig is jumping ship with regard to the Pandora?

I doubt this is the case, it prob just makes more sense for the business plan to succeed.

Exactly.


It's nigh impossible to get investors if you try to tell them "There are other parts, I don't own them, but they exist" )


They need to see a plan that involves that your company alone can do the full production without any other company needed.


So even just a written offer from Craigs Company for what price I can buy the parts and in the same time a written offer from my company to his company about the same amount of money for finished Pandoras would be enough.

I would include in your business plan who owns the rights and intellectual property to the Pandora, not only who owns the parts. The rights and ip are probably more valuable.


I just wanted to take the opportunity to hopefully clarify some concepts if people are interested:


- the call seems to be for 'equity' investors not lenders ie those who share in profit and don't get a fixed return (ie fixed return=interest). Equity investors take the risk that the business will be successful and make a profit. Otherwise they get no return on their investment. If the company goes 'belly up', equity investors may not even recoup their investment


- I'm not attempting to presume anything (so correct me if I'm wrong ED) but I take it that debt finance is out of the question because banks won't lend without security and unpaid preorders are not adequate security. This is why you want 'equity' investors


- equity investors would need to know whether there are any outstanding loans to the company. This is because loans generally rank higher in priority to equity holders. This is generally remedied by starting a new 'clean skin' company.


- those who preordered with payment are customers but they are also unsecured creditors of the company they ordered from. In a loose sense this makes them 'investors' but obviously not in the sense of what is being asked for now. Unless the company has substantial assets, they are likely to receive nothing if the company goes 'belly up'. If the investors are investing in a new company then those who preordered with payment cannot have access to the invested funds if the old company goes 'belly up'


- the call is for investors who are not entitled to be involved in the decision making. Presumably though, as 'equity' investors they will be entitled to vote on who the directors of the company are going to be. They don't have 'day to day' management of the company but they would have to be satisfied that there are adequate controls to ensure that their investment is looked after and profits are maximised.


Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Not sure of the position under German law, but would be surprised if the basic concepts are different.

 

[fatman514]

So, basically, everyone is back to where they were in 2007 (that's the earliest post I could find on GP32x discussing the "new handheld console"), except they're now listening to those who said "Don't use the cheapest company!" at the time, except for a handful of people who have a device that only a handful of other people have?

CC was not cheap. And it was suggested we use them by TI.


The cheap company was the one in China, and that one did their job.

Even down to seeking investment again? And the paid-preorders turned into too much of a nightmare to repeat (wouldn't be your tax consultant telling you that by any chance)?

I was open for investors and suggested them for years and never really liked the paid preorders idea.


Craig didn't like investors, but he also doesn't want any more paid preorders.


Lucky we didn't use investors right from the start, as we would've run out of money then.

It sounds like 4 years down the pan, to me - and the majority of people who originally ordered, and a significant portions of those who bought "premium" units, still haven't got what was promised multiple times. And in a couple of years time, assuming all goes perfectly from here on in, those units from the first batch will probably still be warned against due to poor production quality. I don't see how that's "looking good".

1300 preordered units left (Batch 1 + Batch 2) versus about 2800 delivered units.


Where is your majority that didn't get it yet?

And I still find the legalities unnecessarily confusing - so there are two companies on opposite sides of the English Channel, owned by two different people, with zero paperwork between them, seeking investment with no clear contract on how owns what or has licensed what to whom or owes what to who, with zero effective stock control (given that people have to fight tooth and nail to find out where their units are, how many are remaining etc.), seeking investment into "something" that has already virtually failed once (and isn't exactly profitable yet), has been sourced out of the similar company that Craig owned into (up to two) separate entities that can individually collapse with little recourse, where the investors would have zero say in anything, for a minimum input of 10,000 EUR, when 4 years ago they were in a BETTER position and only managed to take backwards steps since then. That's not even really "investment" so much as "gambling" (which is vastly different).

You try to sound like a smart-ass without having even seen the business plan, don't you?


I am well aware that no investor would want to invest into any company where it's unclear whether they depend on someone else to even start the production or not and which parts they own.


First, my business plan includes that my company buys the remaining parts from Craigs company so that everything is handled from one company.


It also includes the preorders that still have to be delivered.


It also includes a calculation of how much money is needed for that all and how much profit there is after a certain amount of units have been produced and shipped.


If you haven't found out yourself: The issues we had (LCD cables, Nubs, etc.) have been solved already.


The only real issue left right now is the board company, and that's why we have a new one ready now.


2800 units are out there, some for over a year and still work fine.


It's been proven the product itself works and the users are happy with it.


All that's left is a stable production, development is finished. So with a business plan, it's pretty clear for an investor what he invests in what he can gain from that.

Personally, the farce grows ever on and on, down from the door where it began...

No one forces you to agree with anything that happens here.


However, right now you're talking about stuff without even really knowing anything about the business plan and the approach.


You have no idea what exactly is going on nor did you even understand how many have been delivered and where the problems are.


And then you try to call that a farce. Right.

You tell him ED! This guy has no idea how hard you all have worked on this project and how far along you've come. You've made enormous progress with this project. It's not your fault if Circuit Co wasn't keeping up with what they promised you, they gave you a quota and failed to meet it...by a long shot, but you are all doing everything you can to try to save the pandora and I admire that ! I've followed this project for many many years (even though, I didn't post here in the forums until recently, but I sure as hell watched this project like a hawk!) This guy clearly knows nothing about either of the two companies (Craig's and your's), he's probably expecting mass production at the speed that nintendo and sony can do, which proves that he knows nothing about the pandora or it's production. You're just a small team of developers/engineers/tinkerers etc., with limited buying power, you're doing the best you can, ALL OF YOU!

 

[b_o_b]

Anyway, that's my 2 cents. Not sure of the position under German law, but would be surprised if the basic concepts are different.

Nice read.


I am also wondering how foreign investing works. Suppose I invest something from the Netherlands, how high will my profit be taxed in the Netherlands and what will be taxed in Germany. Will the investment itself be taxed, or only the money generated by it?


A business plan only is probably not enough to make a good decision, you need to do some research first.


Seems to me this is a high risk investment. For a good assessment I like to have an overview of all (possible) costs for a private investor who is not resident in Germany or England.

 

[TooCoolToRule]

Wouldn't it be more fair (if CC are still only sending roughly 50 units or so per fortnight) to simply allocate them to the customers at random once production starts in Germany ? It's bad enough that there are still batch 1 pre-orders left, and even worse to think that the proposed production in Germany isn't going to try to reduce that.

 

[F_Slim]

Wouldn't it be more fair (if CC are still only sending roughly 50 units or so per fortnight) to simply allocate them to the customers at random once production starts in Germany ? It's bad enough that there are still batch 1 pre-orders left, and even worse to think that the proposed production in Germany isn't going to try to reduce that.

Delivery of the remaining prepaid units goes according to the queue, regardless which company provides the PCBs.

 

[TooCoolToRule]

Thanks, F_Slim. I didn't see that.

 

[crosspoint]

Nice picture F_Slim! Let the Clone Wars begin!

No worries, right now, Craig and team will build the units.


I could also hire some more clones people to build units.


And I also got an offer from Global Components for assembly, so if things take off, they can deliver fully tested and assembled units.

Allright! That sounds good to me. So fingers crossed that investors will come into play soon so you can give green light for board production.

 

[EvilDragon]

here comes the radical troll again...

Nah bro, I'm serious.

About what?

 

[SavageMind]

Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll, Troll.


Kind rolls off the tongue like saaaaaaaaay: "Lesbian!"


"Now everyone say, Lesbian!", Alan Shore Boston Legal.


Well the Thread title does say "Quotations"


**Disclaimer** Please understand the irrelevant humor diplayed here is by no means the fault of the author of this post. He is often found highly medicated juggling dead squirrels and chainsaws in a kiddie pool filled with pudding. He has also been know to speak yiddish backwards through a tuba. Thank you for your time. :blink: