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Discussion in 'Pyra News' started by EvilDragon, May 1, 2017.

  1. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    That is actually the main reason -not- to do a Kickstarter. Kickstarter supporters have been conditioned to expect the product at a discount AND Kickstarter requires a cut of the revenue. ED is already cutting it very thin with the margins on the Pyra. To make up for Kickstarter's cut, he would potentially have to raise the price above what the pre-orders here have paid. That isn't such a bad thing though. The pre-orders to date have all been funding the project during a timeline with a higher risk. The Kickstarter participants would essentially be ordering a device with already existing and distributed prototypes - their risk would be much lower by comparison.

    The counter argument is that the scale of the orders would allow the price to go down. To justify a lower (or even the same) price for Kickstarter participants, ED would need to make the funding threshold represent roughly 2500 to 5000+ units, so roughly 1 to 2 million Euros. If the Kickstarter price is lower than the DragonBox pre-order price, do those individuals demand a refund at DragonBox and then order on Kickstarter? That would be a mess too - with even more profit margins removed.

    It is a bit of a conundrum. Additional sales and publicity are always a plus. Giving up ~20% or more of the purchase price - over half of the markup over production and support costs (profits) is a huge negative.

    But - the main point is - doing a Kickstarter on this project would not necessarily mean lowering the price and may require a higher one for Kickstarter and future retail sales.

    I'm sure ED understands these concepts and will follow a path that works for him and his company.
     
    xnopasaranx, FBnil, spud42 and 2 others like this.
  2. ible

    ible Advanced Guard Tower

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    from what i can tell, ED wants to do some production runs apart from KS, then consider it (for publicity). mostly to get the kinks out first and devices in actual people's hands, then it won't be as long for impatient KS people...

    it could also be a way to fund alternative colored pyras, etc.
     
    DrHAX and mickeymaus like this.
  3. second exodous

    second exodous Well-Known Member

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    I think it would be best to have revision boards in a kickstarter; sell the boards for one price and then full Pyra handhelds at another. He wouldn't be loosing any money on the full Pyra units but he could produce the upgrade boards cheaper in quantity. This way the existing community can upgrade cheaply, new Pyra owners will get full units quickly, and by that time the software will be more mature. It will also grow an already existing user base.

    I don't think early Pyra as a kickstarter will be a good idea. Logically it goes More Pyra Users=Better Software for the Pyra. Well, for us geeks that know about it now, yes. Kickstarter will have a lot of 'noobs' complaining on the forums why this doesn't work or why this crashes or why isn't 'x' like 'y' in 'z' OS, ect. The software side of the Pyra needs to mature before it is unleashed to mass appeal. ED wouldn't need to worry about this if he had a company with 100 or so software developers working out the kinks before release but he only has us, the pre-orderer teckies.
     
    mati, ible and logenkain like this.
  4. Xcl4m4t10n

    Xcl4m4t10n Very Active Member

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    You didn't understand me :). Still you are right on some points.
     
  5. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    It is too early to be thinking about new SoC boards - assuming that newer/faster/updated SoC was what you were referring to. Much of the software that you're referring to maturing is directly related to specific hardware. I.e. a board revision would require two different versions of drivers and double the work in building and maintaining them. A new SoC would be more appropriate 1.5-2 years after the Pyra releases.

    But - I could see where a Kickstarter might work for an alternate Pyra based product that would add publicity to the project and the current model.

    *Pyramote
    Handheld Pyra based bluetooth keyboard/game controller.
    Uses Pyra keymat & nubs & shoulders.
    Pyra main board with all of the underslung ports and slots unpopulated.

    *Pyrathin
    <20mm thick if possible
    Pyra SoC board, keymat, screen, backlight. Relatively minor changes to main board to mount thinner peripheral connectors.
    Half the battery, battery changeable with a screwdriver but not swapable (to save thickness of battery door clips).
    Tall ports made thin. microUSB ports replace the USB 2 ports (at USB 2.0 connectivity) (Mainbord revision).
    eSATA gone.
    SD card slots changed to microSD card slots (Mainboard revision).
    Case plastics made thinner - maybe even 'melted' to conform to contours of internal components.
    No multi-layer screen lid insert. Just make the case plastic over the lid back LEDs so thin that they shine through.
    Same underlying hardware and the same software as Pyra - just as thin as possible.
    DOES NOT REPLACE THE PYRA. Just gives it a thinner sister device using the same technology.

    I could see either or both of those working as Kickstarter programs. The Pyra itself is a provable prototype for either/both. They could be priced accordingly to account for the Kickstarter fees and discount. The Kickstarter audience would legitimately be funding the case plastics and board revisions to make them. They should popularlize the Pyra without stealing significant audience.
     
    Binky likes this.
  6. second exodous

    second exodous Well-Known Member

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    Exactly, lets not have a kickstarter this early, say a year and a half like you said.

    I don't think this is a good idea, especially a 'Pyrathin', no changes to the hardware until we get at least a few CPU/GPU board revisions. This would make it so the cost of producing the Pyra not go down.

    I don't think you understood me, we should wait until the current software is mature on the current hardware, or what is released. There is no way it will be perfect for mass appeal. I use Linux exclusively and just the OS alone needs tweaking for the Pyra before you can just have anyone pay full price for a Pyra. Everything needs to mature for the masses.

    Grench, you seem like a knowledgeable person when it comes to tech, I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about possibly thousands of people that would order the Pyra thinking it would be as refined software wise as something Apple puts out. The OS and the software needs time to get the bugs out, I think 1.5 years to 2 years would be good enough.

    If ED makes any changes to the main board in that time and introduces it in a kickstarter with the revised CPU boards that's fine as long as the CPU board works on the current version of the Pyra so people can both upgrade and/or get a whole new Pyra.
     
  7. Grench

    Grench Forum Addict!

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    I think we're on the same page for the most part.

    The Pyrathin idea though would not be a major hardware change. Yes new case plastics - which would be funded by the campaign. Yes, a mainboard revision - but that would be -minor- by comparison to designing a new SoC board or 'new' main board. Re-read my description for the Pyrathin. It is a 2nd version of the same board. The changes would be to traces to mount thinner ports in the same places as the existing full size ports. Electrically the two devices would be the same with the exception of the eSATA through the 2nd USB port. A microUSB plug would not have the needed connectors for it. Otherwise it's a direct trace to trace copy.
    microUSB 3.0 stays
    microHDMI stays
    microUSB charging port stays
    USB 2.0 host changes to microUSB 2.0 host. Electrically the same.
    USB 2.0 host/eSATA changes to microUSB 2.0 host. Electrically the same. (no pins for the eSATA on microUSB connector)
    SDXC left changes to microSDXC left. Electrically the same.
    SDXC right changes to microSDXC right. Electrically the same.
    A new battery - thinner and/or L shaped to go around the SoC board. Same voltage, half the capacity.

    It would serve an additional market of those who want/need a thinner device and are willing to sacrifice the full sized ports, ergonomic gaming comfort and extreme battery life of the Pyra to get there while maintaining direct hardware and software compatibility.

    The Pyra is a niche device. A Pyrathin alternative form factor could widen the niche with minimal added production costs. Since they take the same SoC board, both would use the same upgrade board in ~2 years.

    I'm happy with the Pyra - I like full sized ports & SD slots and giant battery life. But, I can already tell that the #1 complaint from reviewers and people considering buying one is going to be something like: "Wow - great device, but it's as thick as a paving brick!"

    And before someone says it - this isn't a demand for a Pyrathin (name negotiable). It is a potential answer to, "What could DragonBox do on Kickstarter to maximize the existing investment in the Pyra?"
     
  8. second exodous

    second exodous Well-Known Member

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    Well, if you want a smaller device why not just change every USB port to USB C, can't a USB C port be wired on a USB 2.0 or 3.0 mainboard? It won't be C speeds but it will be smaller, not require a break out cable, and will be more readily available in the future.

    I think a major revision to the main board is alright in 1.5 years to 2 years as long as it won't change the upgrade CPU board so it will work with both the new and old boards. So lets just keep going with the current Pyra for a few years and let the platform mature then do a kickstarter with various upgrades.
     
  9. vcoleiro1

    vcoleiro1 Hardcore Member

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    I don't see an issue with doing a Kickstarter for the Pyra. It's up to ED and his finance calculations regarding what price he would use. That said, if he wanted to add 5-10% to cater for KS fees etc , then that wouldn't be an issue IMO. GPD did that with the WIN when they did the Japanese crowdfunding on Makuake, it was 10-20% (varying with later backer levels) more expensive there . This happened just after the WIN Indiegogo campaign which was a lot cheaper. I didn't see anyone complain about the price diff.

    I would say that you would need to stop pre-orders here about a month before the KS tough, just to have some separation. Moreover, it probably would be prudent to not do it until after current pre-orders were delivered and production was proven - unless that invalidates KS rules for being on there
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  10. Swordfish II

    Swordfish II Very Active Member

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    I doubt the price would be lower. ED ran the development costs etc with the current prices on here at one point and they are very close. He also mentioned that kick starter takes a cut which would further cut into profits, and in order to turn out well... He would need to undercut what the site sells at...

    Maybe a confusing way to write it. But here is an example illustrating with fake numbers: essentially if preorders cost $600, ED makes $50 with all said and done ($550 would break even). KS takes 25% so at full price of $600, ED would take a loss on each one ($450).

    Granted manufacturing/prototype costs do decrease with an increase in production.. But that is hard to forecast the amount that it would increase and would make KS either not worth it or risky IMO.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  11. ible

    ible Advanced Guard Tower

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    i like the idea of a kickstarter for the second CPU board (plus any slightly-upgraded main stuff). by that time, the pyra will have matured nicely, and less people would complain about the "old" CPU (since it would be updated). gives ED time to think about the next steps, no rushing, etc.

    i also like the idea of a pyra-mote as just the bottom half with much stuff unpopulated. (bonus points if we can market the hinge as something without needing to take it off the moulds :D.) i'd consider keeping the speakers and rumble, so it could play bluetooth music and give feedback to other games.

    but of course, first things first... and definitely no supervolcanos........
     
  12. FaeMinx

    FaeMinx Rainbow Liberation Instigation

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    Pyramote or Pyra-mote sounds better than Pymote.

    It rolls off the tongue better, and is a nice play on remote.

    Good thinking Grench. :)

    Edit: .. and people will be less likely to miss associate it with the Raspberry Pi (even though it will be an excellent accessory for that too).
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2017
  13. NOP

    NOP Still Fresh

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    Hi, i am a "long time lurker".

    Kickstarter (at this point) is a bed idea because as said before the Pyra is not "noob ready" jet.
    In the past the most important thing when buying a new "smart phone" was its community surrounding it, especially its quality not only its quantity of people.
    I am using a oneplus one at the moment and before that the nexus 4, both had good community support compared to other devices.

    My fear would be that not so technical users could harm the community in the beginning.
    If i would ask for example why the sound stutters, so badly on my oneplus one in a linux chroot using pulse, the answers would probably not be helpful ;)
    where as in this community such questions would be more normal to ask.

    :) probably true, but its a good weapon to.

    As i am probably finally preorder one soon, whats the best way to carry a "brick" and a phone (whiteout smashing the phone) ;)
    I think the Pyra is probably a "little" to bulky to fit together with my phone in one pocket, and i dont want to carry a backpack
     
  14. kabaiakh

    kabaiakh Very Active Member

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    For me, a name starting with "py" makes me think about Python stuff.
    So I'd rather see /pyra.*/ names for products around the main Pyra.
     
  15. NOP

    NOP Still Fresh

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    @kabaiakh true, i thought at python stuff to, there is even some python project called pymote already ^^ (github.com/darbula/pymote)
     
  16. Binky

    Binky Death's Steed Staff Member

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    Pyralight?
     
  17. NOP

    NOP Still Fresh

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  18. Willhelm

    Willhelm Very Active Member

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    hm sony allready produced it? :happy:
     
  19. spud42

    spud42 Very Active Member

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    nice photochop that... lol best use of a PSP Go i have seen...
     
  20. levi

    levi Still fresh, damnit!

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    Welcome to the boards, NOP. Good job your post actually got registered with a name like that ;)

    For me even with the slightly slimmer Pandora, I can't fit it all the way in to most of my jeans pockets, so I only carry it like that around the house when I'm doing the dishes or otherwise basically stood up for a stretch so I can use it to listen to some podcasts. Out and about if it's winter I can fit it in a coat pocket okay, and in the summer I need to carry a messenger bag/laptop bag to take it with me. I don't see why it should be any better or worse for the Pyra.
     
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