Some News Of Things To Come...

[craigix]

I think he just needs to get laid.

Actually Epicenter isn't so funny anymore, it is now just getting sad. He seems to be doing a good job of digging his own grave here.

 

[zodttd]

Hey, speaking of arguing, where's DaveC? I invite you to join in on this, since you kindly started it.

 

[Azalin]

So basicly the problem with many of the emulators is that they are ports of PC emulators, which is slowing them down. And in order to get the fuctionality and speed that we so desire we need to write our own emulators from the ground up, correct?

 

[Epicenter]

All this discussion has really proven is that a developer will do what he wants to do regardless of what others think. Zodttd, you seem to have misunderstood me in somehow thinking I am opposed to your working on a PSX emulator.. I'm not. I've just maintained the GP2X is the wrong hardware on which to do it. Do whatever you think is right, I'm not going to try and stop you. Don't mistake my musings for a personal attack on you, as I think you might have misinterpreted them as.

Craig- how about you respond to the allegations against you for once instead of resorting to immature comments? You're demonstrating even more proof of your complete lack of professionalism-- or even basic argumentative skills. I've had more fulfilling conversations with fifth graders than with you.

 

[Vollgasasi]

I've had more fulfilling conversations with fifth graders than with you.

judging by this, epicenter, you are also immature. now stop that personal shit and get back on topic.

 

[Tinnus]

It's fun to see people talking shit like that

1) It's psx4all so it's not just the GP2X we are aiming at. There's lots of other platforms to target and several are ALREADY fullspeed with sound on a lot of games like the v43 and Zaurus.

2) The PS1 CPU is a R3000A running at 33Mhz. Fortunately for us, most games would run well at something like 20MHz so we could pretend the CPU is slower in the calculations...

3) There are numerous ways to emulate a CPU. Only takes some skill, time, and luck The PSP has N64 emulation at a decent speed for games like Mario 64. And it's emulating a freaking 64bit 96MHz MIPS in a 32bit 333MHz one. Not to mention the 3D.

4) The GTE is not floating point in the PS1, it is fixed point. The PS1 had no floating point capabilities whatsoever.

5) The PS1 GPU was 2D It only knew how to render 2D polygons with texture mapping and gourad shading, apart from your general GPU stuff like sprites. Simple put, it's faster to emulate it than say, the one in the SNES.

6) All the 3D was done in the GTE. Which is basically a matrix multiplier... anyway, it did calculations with fractional numbers (although fixed-point) and when emulating it you can throw away some (almost unnoticeable) precision to gain performance. Also lots of its features weren't used by any games so you can just disable emulating them.

Why PSX?

7) It's a challenge.

8) It's cool.

9) I like a lot of the PS1 games.

10) I want to. So what?

 

[Vollgasasi]

you know this thread makes me think that good psx emulation is more likely than many of us think

 

[Epicenter]

you know this thread makes me think that good psx emulation is more likely than many of us think tongue.gif

It's this kind of frothy-mouthed optimism that will result in a deluge of N64/DC emulation threads washing ashore in the coming week. I hope you're happy with yourself, young man.

1) It's psx4all so it's not just the GP2X we are aiming at. There's lots of other platforms to target and several are ALREADY fullspeed with sound on a lot of games like the v43 and Zaurus.

This is the kind of shit I like to see. I'd love to use PSX4ALL on a better platform.

2) The PS1 CPU is a R3000A running at 33Mhz. Fortunately for us, most games would run well at something like 20MHz so we could pretend the CPU is slower in the calculations...

This was one of my early suggestions. I also recommended it for GNGeo2x (it was quite beneficial) and DrMDx (Reesy never got around to it.)

4) The GTE is not floating point in the PS1, it is fixed point. The PS1 had no floating point capabilities whatsoever.

Correct, as I said. However, if you look back, I stated the emulation of the GTE is easier with floating point code, which Zodttd backed up stating he'd prefer to use VFPU instructions.

5) The PS1 GPU was 2D It only knew how to render 2D polygons with texture mapping and gourad shading, apart from your general GPU stuff like sprites. Simple put, it's faster to emulate it than say, the one in the SNES.

I highly doubt it's less work to emulate than the SNES' graphics subsystem on any reasonably intensive game. But there's no way to be sure until there is a level playing field with maximally optimized emulators for both platforms, which is pretty much impossible.

10) I want to. So what?

Said that all along. A developer always follows his heart. That's why I do not code for the GP2X anymore. I hope you have fun and as I said before I look forward to trying out your works on ohter platforms in the future. Should GP release a decent XGP handheld down the road, I'd love to see PSX4ALL on it.

 

[Jaguarandine]

Out of curiousity Epicenter, why are you still here then? You've stopped development of your game, and you don't even have a working GP2X by your account. It seems to me that you're just hating. Please though, explain from your own words.

 

[Shikaku]

Out of curiousity Epicenter, why are you still here then? You've stopped development of your game, and you don't even have a working GP2X by your account. It seems to me that you're just hating. Please though, explain from your own words.

Using SDL allows development on any platform for any platform that supports it (including the GP2X).

 

[Epicenter]

Out of curiousity Epicenter, why are you still here then? You've stopped development of your game, and you don't even have a working GP2X by your account. It seems to me that you're just hating. Please though, explain from your own words.

Using SDL allows development on any platform for any platform that supports it (including the GP2X).

Yes, that's part of it. I have not stopped development, however, it's just not going to be a GP2X exclusive title, and may not have a GP2X port.

Predominant reasons:
#1, I stick around for XGP discussion and the occasional off-topic stuff.
#2, Morbid curiosity.
#3, I rather enjoy a good technical argument. They are guaranteed par for the course here.
#4, Ever stare into a car crash and have difficulty looking away?

 

[Nr.56]

@ epicenter

nobody (excepted DaveC) needs 60 frames to play psx-games

 

[Shikaku]

@ epicenter

nobody (excepted DaveC) needs 60 frames to play psx-games

Not even the PSX does (for example, FF7 goes into 15 FPS in battles).

 

[Epicenter]

How are you able to quantify that? And how such an exact number? .. If the system cannot manage to generate 60 frames per second it will repeat frames, so it is still showing 60 of them. That is required for the 60 Hz syncrate to the TV. It just causes slowdown that resembles bullet time.

 

[Tinnus]

Correct, as I said. However, if you look back, I stated the emulation of the GTE is easier with floating point code, which Zodttd backed up stating he'd prefer to use VFPU instructions.

Because they would end up being faster. But if you don't have something special to do vector math, fixed point is easier--simply because the original one was fixed-point.

PCSX used to use floating point and changed to fixed. I suppose then that indicates they came to the conclusion fixed is better...

 

[zodttd]

I'd like to see that technical argument Epicenter. You brought many points up that I'd like to see backed up by facts.

Please explain why PSX emulation is not possible, even at a level where it performs at speeds equal to that of the actual hardware, on the GP2X. If you can relate the points you raised to something simplistic enough as what I've seen with the argument of N64 not being realistic for fullspeed operation on the PSP, I'll gladly agree with you.

I'll even give some homework. Take the list of R3000A supported MIPS32 instructions and the number of cycles it takes for each of them. If the number of cycles it takes is not available to you, use a similar MIPS32 processor within that arch line. Then take a list of ARM920T supported ARM (or THUMB I suppose) instructions and the cycles it takes per instruction. If it is impossible to handle, let me know immediately. The CPU opcode handling took more than 50% of psx4all's processing time. If it is shown that translating those instructions to the GP2X's ARM9 @ 200-266MHz takes too much time by blantantly looking at the available instructions and their equivelant cycles, that would tell me, at least, that psx emulation isn't worth trying on the GP2X. The GPU takes the second largest amount of time. You seem to assume the GPU is the main cause of psx emulation being too slow. The GPU we used in psx4all is a custom made software rasterizer. From what I've heard from Unai, there's still much that could be done within the GPU realm. But from my expierence if the CPU emulation was proven "impossible" it would weigh much more than trying to show GPU emulation as being the cause. It's also easier to test if CPU emulation is the cause.

So please get technical and show me how psx emulation on the GP2X is impossible, NOT improbable. I can handle improbable.

Where is DaveC?

 

[badwolf]

because it was going to be posted eventually anyway:

 

[reaper79]

This topic has been an interesting read and I've enjoyed it, but it is starting to sound like Matt Lauer interviewing Tom Cruise:

zodttd: "Don't you think that, at least, PSX emulation might be possible?"
Epicenter: "You don't know the history of emulation! I do!"



At either rate, how can you call continued work in the area of PSX emulation wasted effort? At the very least, the continued evolution of this emulator will only make future versions for future platforms that much better. Especially when considering your fanatical loyalty to a system that may or may not be vaporware - if that system ever comes to fruition it would only benefit from the work these fine programmers have done so far and are still doing to progress this emulator.

 

[Alex.]

YOUR SYSTEM IS BASED AROUND A DVD PLAYER'S PROCESSOR. You're a simpleton and your business is built on garbage.

You're also the liar who put this nonsense in people's heads about your beloved (terrible) licensed game 'Payback' having HDR lighting technology and full-scene antaliasing. The only thing that makes you better than the Gizmondo crew is that you aren't a mobster. You make me fucking sick.

Your arguments are void to me when you require such crude expressions to carry your point across. Payback is a very fun game, to me as well as to many others. Again, you failed to at least point one valid thing against it.

you should put more happiness into your life really

I'm happy about other things. I was just watching shrimp jump around in my fish tank for 15 minutes. Before that I was working on my engine, I came up with some optimizations to the object processing functions that I'm quite proud of. Before that I was eating some sukiyaki and playing my DS.. only system of mine for a decade that's so enjoyable I find myself laughing out loud at how much fun I'm having when playing games on it. When something like the GP2X makes me unhappy-- it is not my fault, it is the GP2X's..

It's good to know that filling yourself with shrimp and laughing loud at your DS completes your life to such a great extent, that you only rarely need hold hostile agendas against gaming handhelds, and their resellers. Goodie.

By the way, a very important part of game design is knowing your hardware's limitations, and working around them. That's what makes a lot of those old classic games so special, it's the way developers managed to overcome hardware barriers to produce amazing software. You're doing the exact opposite, it seems, you're waiting for more powerful hardware to come out... for a 2D shooter. For a 2D shooter.

- Alex

 

[craigix]

Maybe epicenter is using his l33t coding skills to push the message board to its limits instead.