Re: A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012)

[Christoph.Krn]

This post (below the line) is in reply to the end of A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012), to which I would like to provide a counter statement.

PS: In my opinion, too many threads are being closed recently. Remeber that closing a thread will make replying to it impossible for basically 'all times'. The reason I think that it would not have been necessary to close quite a few of the threads that have been closed recently is that often times, it's enough if /a moderator/ just warns people that if they don't stop being mad, the thread will be closed.

PPS: The quoting is a bit broken on this forum right now, hence the weird quote formatting.

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Regarding the grammar thing: Texts which are poorly written are more difficult to read that those which are not. If one would like whatever it is that one is about to write to be read and understood by others, then well, riddling it with errors is not exactly the best thing to do.

I agree that getting mad at people who don't write well is in itself a stupid thing. But I hope you understand it's important that people are allowed to complain about comments which they find to be a nuisance to read (or difficult even). The alternative is to just ignore these comments, and that's not helpful to anyone.

Plus, as already noted, this is an international forum. If klapse is who I believe him to be, then he's probably used to the culture that's prevalent in Germany (in fact, 'Klapse' is a word in the German language), where there's very little of a 'If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything' type of mentality. Instead, in the German culture, being corrected by someone in most cases is understood as a helpful gesture (unless one is being rude). (This information is not meant to excuse any behavior, but it's relevant.)

What RobeeJay said was: "What did I miss out [in my thread summary, remark]?"
My reply:

For instance:

• In case OpenPandora ltd. should happen to go completely bankrupt, OpenPandora GmbH will try to fulfill all orders, upgrades, and refunds left at OpenPandora ltd. [citation needed]
• Ed has stated he does not want to work on the Pandora 2 because he does not want to work on it together with Craig. [citation needed]

 

[Timstertoo]

This post (below the line) is in reply to the end of A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012), to which I would like to provide a counter statement.


PS: In my opinion, too many threads are being closed recently. Remeber that closing a thread will make replying to it impossible for basically 'all times'. The reason I think that it would not have been necessary to close quite a few of the threads that have been closed recently is that often times, it's enough if /a moderator/ just warns people that if they don't stop being mad, the thread will be closed.


PPS: The quoting is a bit broken on this forum right now, hence the weird quote formatting.


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Regarding the grammar thing: Texts which are poorly written are more difficult to read that those which are not. If one would like whatever it is that one is about to write to be read and understood by others, then well, riddling it with errors is not exactly the best thing to do.


I agree that getting mad at people who don't write well is in itself a stupid thing. But I hope you understand it's important that people are allowed to complain about comments which they find to be a nuisance to read (or difficult even). The alternative is to just ignore these comments, and that's not helpful to anyone.


Plus, as already noted, this is an international forum. If klapse is who I believe him to be, then he's probably used to the culture that's prevalent in Germany (in fact, 'Klapse' is a word in the German language), where there's very little of a 'If you don't have anything nice to say, then don't say anything' type of mentality. Instead, in the German culture, being corrected by someone in most cases is understood as a helpful gesture (unless one is being rude). (This information is not meant to excuse any behavior, but it's relevant.)

 

What RobeeJay said was: "What did I miss out [in my thread summary, remark]?"

My reply:


For instance:

• In case OpenPandora ltd. should happen to go completely bankrupt, OpenPandora GmbH will try to fulfill all orders, upgrades, and refunds left at OpenPandora ltd. [citation needed]
• Ed has stated he does not want to work on the Pandora 2 because he does not want to work on it together with Craig. [citation needed]

This whole grammar thing started with Klapse jumping at some guys throat because he said "there brother" instead of "their brother". Phonetically it sounds the same, big deal. Not really worth even mentioning and especially not in the way Klapse reacted. Much more disruptive to the thread then a minor grammar mistake on an international forum.

Maybe I'm just too laid back in that aspect. I could even deal with someone saying "all your bases are belong to us" on an international forum as although it's horrible English I still exactly know what he means and I'd rather have him feel comfortable to respond then to lurk.

 

[moxie]

Yes. Agree completely (with the original poster). It is sometimes difficult enough to understand posts when everybody involved is doing their best, particularly given that this is an international board. And really, the problem isn't with someone writing english as a second language - If Ed a post writes, in which he the order of the words strangely puts, it will by most of us be understood. Or if I write a post there I barely overput the swedish words directly, I'm just happy to be corrected. However, when a native english speaker goes all txt-spk 1 us, its q8 dfklt 2 folow spcly 4 toz !n8ive speekers. Text-speak or other kinds of shorthand demands a lot more knowledge about how the language actually sounds and what the now modern slang is and means.

 

[Znirk]

Since this is probably the official pedantry thread of the forum, I'd just like to point out that writing "there" instead of "their" is a spelling error. There's nothing wrong with the grammar.

Others have already pointed out that this is an international forum, and that odd syntax, word choices and spellings will probably just have to be accepted even in those cases where they're confusing to the reader.

What I do resent is lazy writing. It's not only txt abbrvs although they are the same kind of laziness on the part of the writer which drops disproportionately more work on the reader often the problem is with long strung together word chains i hesitate to call them sentences with no indication of where one begins and the next ends i mean how hard can it be to use punctuation or possibly a new line now and again when we move from one idea to the next anyway see written communication much like spoken takes effort from both the writer and the reader and the more effort the writer saves the harder it becomes for the reader to follow let alone understand come on people take two minutes instead of thirty seconds to write your posts and use that time to make your point clearly otherwise your readers will need four times as long to try to follow whatever point it is youre trying to make really its only polite to meet your audience halfway plus punctuation and capitalisation are not only structural hints and representations of information which in speech would be carried by the intonation they also make it easier for the eye to keep track of what has been read and reduce the risk of your readers losing their place in your text im not sure whether anyone actually took the trouble to read all the way through here but i can tell you with confidence that if i encountered a text like this written by someone else i would probably not bother but simply skip ahead to the next post even if all the grammar and the spelling is correct apart from capitalisation and punctuation.

tl;dr: These textual wastelands are ugly, and they make the writer look stupid and inconsiderate.

 

[darkborn]

  This post (below the line) is in reply to the end of A further update on preorders (18th of November 2012), to which I would like to provide a counter statement.
PS: In my opinion, too many threads are being closed recently. Remeber that closing a thread will make replying to it impossible for basically 'all times'. The reason I think that it would not have been necessary to close quite a few of the threads that have been closed recently is that often times, it's enough if /a moderator/ just warns people that if they don't stop being mad, the thread will be closed.


PPS: The quoting is a bit broken on this forum right now, hence the weird quote formatting.


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Regarding the grammar thing: Texts which are poorly written are more difficult to read that those which are not. If one would like whatever it is that one is about to write to be read and understood by others, then well, riddling it with errors is not exactly the best thing to do.

I agree that getting mad at people who don't write well is in itself a stupid thing. But I hope you understand it's important that people are allowed to complain about comments which they find to be a nuisance to read (or difficult even). The alternative is to just ignore these comments, and that's not helpful to anyone.


Plus, as already noted, this is an international forum.

<...>

Grammar thingy is (mostly) a poor excuse for hiding things. As I'll elaborate later. I don't feel guilty that I'm forced to post here, as this is the only(!) way to find what's going on, and consequently the only way to fight for my rights. I did not sign contract that I will learn Oxford English if I send money for Pandora. No sir, I'm forced to participate here.

Because last thread is closed (as many more), I'm forced to write here. If you'll call me a troll, I'll start to call this project a scam. And soon or later start a law suit, there are plenty of reason.

This what follows should had been on just closed thread, so I'll paste & write it here. F*ck you, censors, this is not Orwell's 1984.

If somebody is really concerned about (my) writings, regardless because of meaning or grammar, please contact (me) privately, don't close another thread.

#831   hedwards

#827  darkborn
Thanks guys, but please stop calling people trolls just because they want their rights, and because most can't get what is going on for real.

We can close this thread, but this will not HIDE the fact that Craig did not answer on legit question, instead  - he accused others...

All conclusions here are made from other people, and this is not normal way of doing it.

"Sorry people, I s*rewed up, I'll make my best to get things done" will be enough for most.

There are more things to say, but I'm already on "ignore list", so this is pointless.

"hush hush, don't make it public"... f*k that. Mediocre, false moral.

When people start making up stories and drumming up support for law suits based upon defamatory claims that are completely lacking in supporting evidence, I'm not sure what else you would call it. There is presently no supporting evidence to the various claims of fraud being leveled against Craig. ED has even come in and specifically stated that there is no such fraud. And yet people keep trying to cause trouble and make it less likely that people will continue to receive their units.

I'm sorry, but if that's not trolling, it's ignorance far above and beyond the normal amount.

 

[Christoph.Krn]

This whole grammar thing started with Klapse jumping at some guys throat because he said "there brother" instead of "their brother".

To which I've written something (hence my counterstatement, to explain my position).
The difference between "their", "there", and "they're" is, well, merely one thing, and as such not really the thing that arguments should be revolving around. But it's a relevant example nonetheless, because mixing up such phonetically similar words can alter the actual meaning of what was written (I'm not using a screen reader). Typically, understanding what was actually meant is rather easy, but often not without stopping when the words after "their"/"there"/"they're" unexpectedly don't really fit anymore, and then re-orientating. The only people who do not notice are the ones who are making such mistakes.

Me, I'm not even as much concerned about the grammar itself (because if a post is too poorly written, I'll usually just ignore, or at the best skim through it) as I'm afraid of a 'Don't complain' atmosphere. That is always likely to kill technical discussions (please read On Not Reacting Like A Loser).

"All your base are belong to us" is great, no question. This all is not about blind adherence to grammatical rules, but about respect, culture, efficiency, and giving a damn.

edit:

Grammar thingy is (mostly) a poor excuse for hiding things. As I'll elaborate later. I don't feel guilty that I'm forced to post here, as this is the only(!) way to find what's going on, and consequently the only way to fight for my rights. I did not sign contract that I will learn Oxford English if I send money for Pandora. No sir, I'm forced to participate here.

Because last thread is closed (as many more), I'm forced to write here. If you'll call me a troll, I'll start to call this project a scam. And soon or later start a law suit, there are plenty of reason.

Please note that I'm not an employee of any of the Open Pandora companies.
You seem to be wanting to reply to something more generic that what this thread here is about, and so to keep this thread here constructive I would like to ask you to please either focus on being constructive and to focus on the topic of this thread, or to start a separate thread.

 

[Timstertoo]

Me, I'm not even as much concerned about the grammar itself (because if a post is too poorly written, I'll usually just ignore, or at the best skim through it) as I'm afraid of a 'Don't complain' atmosphere. That is always likely to kill technical discussions (please read 

On Not Reacting Like A Loser).


================== end quote==================

 

[THB]

As a native English speaker, when someone on the Internet (irc or forums) stops the flow of conversation to point out mistakes that others have made in their posts that are clearly understood by all. It just comes across as rude and pedantic.

I hope my post was helpful.




I think native speakers are more likely to make mistakes because they think faster than they can type or probably dont think of internet forums or irc as formal writing that should be proof read and checked.

I can't judge what happens on other language forums as I dont follow any.

Imagine if someone like skeezix was lambasted every time he posted, we would miss out on the input of a valuable member of the community. Check some of his posts if you want your pedant OCD alarm to go completely off tap.

 

 

[Christoph.Krn]

Timstertoo wrote:

"That's a completely different matter. That's about not complaining about points made on topic. Not nitpicking about grammar and spelling on and international forum. Not posting something with a valid point because you're afraid to get jumped on for every little spelling and grammar mistake is what's going to kill technical discussion.

But we're probably going to end up talking in circles so let's agree to disagree and if that isn't good enough let's just say you're right. "

My reply:

Well, yes, read my post in the original thread (linked to in my previous post in this thread here) -- that's basically what it was about. But also about grammar itself.

I'm not arguing so as to be right, I do it when I think that my position is important. Feel free to just ignore it if you don't agree, I won't be mad at all.

 

[Klumpen]

In general: I am always trying to get more used to this language, so please try to teach all your readers here just by being a good example in grammar, spelling and style, no matter where you are from.

Little corrections are helpful, but discussions about it are not, although they are necessary, if someone makes a big deal out of the comment - obviously this happened here.

Just like Chrishoph, i am missing a lot of the actual input here, because i have to ignore posts that are in itself a science to read.

 

[TrashyMG]

I type fast and often I make mistakes mostly in contractions. If I take the time and re-read what I typed I can catch these mistakes, but many times when I quickly write something out and post it quick I miss things..

To me this is an embarrasing thing I've lived with all my life, it's not that I don't understand the proper use of these contractions It's just that I'm a scatter brain and sometimes I jumble things.

It's one thing to nicely say something about it. it's another to use examples like this in a PM:

"You're welcome" is correct. "You're" is a contraction for "you are", as in "You're illiterate."

I don't think this is a German custom, Klapse wanted to be a jerk about it.

 

[Klumpen]

In school I have been told, that these contractions are illegitimate in written text, if it is not a quote of spoken dialogue, like in a screenplay.

 

[darkborn]

I'll qoute my self:

You seem to be wanting to reply to something more generic that what this thread here is about, and so to keep this thread here constructive I would like to ask you to please either focus on being constructive and to focus on the topic of this thread, or to start a separate thread.

Grammar thingy is (mostly) a poor excuse for hiding things.

Because last thread is closed (as many more), I'm forced to write here.

I'll stay with this:

"Sorry people, I s*rewed up, I'll make my best to get things done" will be enough for most.

Your behaviour is the reason why he dares to take 1GHz "resources" to... who the f*ck knows what.

Now call me OCPD, troll, illiterate, whatever.

 

[darkborn]

In school I have been told, that these contractions are illegitimate in written text, if it is not a quote of spoken dialogue, like in a screenplay.

I'm  I am sorry, I am have not be told these contractions are illegitimate. I am not native English speaker, obviously.

I was thinking that in XXI century (where Pandorian belongs) should be common to use things like "r u sure", "gotit" etc et cetera, shouldn't it should not it?

In same manner, I thought that was faster/shorter to type (and read) e.g.  exempli gratia: "I've got" then "I have got".

I am illegitimate one. /ironic off

 

[Klumpen]

Please darkborn, i am with you in most of your points.

Our teachers were not the best ones, so i am not sure about anything they told us, especcially in "Englisch".

 

[_wb_]

Since this is probably the official pedantry thread of the forum, I'd just like to point out that writing "there" instead of "their" is a spelling error. There's nothing wrong with the grammar.

No, it's a grammar error. The word "there" and "their" are both spelled perfectly correctly, it's just that they're different words, with grammatically different roles, and one of them doesn't belong there according to English grammar. Correct grammar usage (as well as punctuation) helps people a lot to parse sentences. The original sentence was this:

"i am upset but would be happy with im sorry i messed up instead of blaming everyone and there brothers for misjudgement on his part."

One way, presumably the intended way, to parse this phrase is as follows: (I used brackets to group things)

"I am upset, but would be happy with "I'm sorry, I messed up" instead of blaming (everyone and their brothers) for (misjudgment on his part)."


 


Another way would be:


 


"I am upset, but would be happy with im [instant message?]. Sorry I messed up instead of blaming everyone. And there, brothers, for misjudgment on his part! "


 


or


 


"I am upset, but would be happy with "I'm sorry, I messed up instead of blaming everyone and their brothers for misjudgment", on his part."


 


or


 


"I am upset, but would be happy (with "I'm sorry, I messed up instead of blaming everyone and there" brothers) for (misjudgment on his part)."  which would mean something along of the lines of him being happy for Craig's misjudgment, and not being happy alone, but happy together with brothers of the "I'm sorry, bla bla" kind.


 


 


and so on. English, like most languages, is highly ambiguous, which is why people use correct punctuation, grammar, and spelling to help disambiguate things.


 


Once you get used to it, the extra effort needed to write correctly is negligible. So please attempt to write correctly, because it's much easier and faster to read sentences when you don't have to read them aloud (mentally) in order to find out what they mean. Especially for non-native English users like me.

 

[darkborn]

Please darkborn, i am with you in most of your points. Our teachers were not the best ones, so i am not sure about anything they told us, especcially in "Englisch".

I know, it was not about you. It was because "noblers" without arguments  becomes picky and take things like "there brother" as a final prove of "incompetence".

Just look at Craigix sentences... it is not illiterate, it is "style". Kool.

I was ironic because It is the fascistic "lol fag" game playing here for years... and a main reason that Craig has guts to do things like he does.

 

[TrashyMG]

and so on. English, like most languages, is highly ambiguous, which is why people use correct punctuation, grammar, and spelling to help disambiguate things.

Once you get used to it, the extra effort needed to write correctly is negligible. So please attempt to write correctly, because it's much easier and faster to read sentences when you don't have to read them aloud (mentally) in order to find out what they mean. Especially for non-native English users like me.

Sorry can't guarantee anything _wb_ and I'm a native English speaker.. but I tend to jumble sentences in my mind, it's a condition I've lived with all my life. I really need to concentrate when speaking out loud and on text. I'm not a moron or illiterate, I hold an engineering position at work and well respected for my intelligence and experience. But I've been fighting this issue all my life and I know it makes me look and sound like an idiot. I'm often a quiet talker, because it takes a good deal of concentration to say something out loud that isn't a jumbled mess. when it comes to writing it isn't as bad, I can spend a bit of time editing before I post. I'm very self conscious of my writing as it is embarrassing. I guess the internet age has made me a bit sloppy on my editing as it seems that it's more accepted to make these mistakes.

 

[darkborn]

Since this is probably the official pedantry thread of the forum, I'd just like to point out that writing "there" instead of "their" is a spelling error. There's nothing wrong with the grammar.

No, it's a grammar error.

<blah-blah-blah-blah>

It WAS spelling error, because all of us understood what is the meaning of that sentence (and certainly you are).

Your attempts to relativize it by putting it out of the contest (well, you insisted to close the thread, arent you?) makes you a good material for politician and salesman, but I do not buy it here. Your regular posts are not so elaborated as this one, and you're not OCPD, so, my conclusion is... that you are making mist here for... reasons I mentioned before.

EDIT: link to "there brothers" @closed thread, so that anybody has evidence what was all about.

http://boards.openpandora.org/index.php/topic/10774-a-further-update-on-preorders-18th-of-november-2012/page-37#entry208132

 

[Znirk]

Since this is probably the official pedantry thread of the forum, I'd just like to point out that writing "there" instead of "their" is a spelling error. There's nothing wrong with the grammar.

No, it's a grammar error. The word "there" and "their" are both spelled perfectly correctly, it's just that they're different words, with grammatically different roles, and one of them doesn't belong there according to English grammar.

I'm pretty sure the writer's error doesn't lie in confusing the grammatical roles of the words <their> and <there>. He simply misspelled the word <their>. The misspelled form is also the correct spelling for an existing homonym, and that's certainly more confusing to the reader than a plain wrong spelling; but it doesn't turn a spelling error into a grammar error. You might argue that the error can cause a grammar problem for the reader trying to parse the sentence; but that argument would work better with a more ambiguous example of an error than the one we had here.

So: Yes, it's harder to read a sentence containing a misspelling (particularly when there's a homonym clash involved); but that kind of thing is not entirely preventable, and pointing out such a mistake isn't usually worth the thread derailment which tends to follow. Like I said, what I'm pointing out is pure pedantry. It's irrelevant to the actual discussion (such as it was) going on in the original thread, just as the spelling correction (or grammar correction, if you insist) itself was.