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FAQ for remaining Preorders of OpenPandora Ltd.

Discussion in 'Support Area' started by EvilDragon, Dec 4, 2013.

  1. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    This is an FAQ for all remaining preorders of OpenPandora Ltd. who didn't receive their Pandora yet.

    Please note: All prices mentioned within this thread are without VAT. If you're living within the EU, 19% VAT will be added.

    1. I heard OpenPandora is being closed?

    That's not entirely correct - it's not OpenPandora, it is only OpenPandora Ltd.

    There have always been TWO companies names OpenPandora.

    One is OpenPandora Ltd. in UK (which is Craigix' company), the other one is OpenPandora GmbH in Germany (which is mine (EvilDragon) company).

    OpenPandora Ltd. has recently requested a struck off the company register.

    That means that the company will simply be closed and will cease to exist.

    You can object that, in case you still have an open order with them - please find more information on this and this thread.

    OpenPandora GmbH is still alive and healthy, manufacturing Pandoras and trying to help out the remaining preorders from Craig.

    I don't advise taking legal action or a small court claims against OpenPandora Ltd. and I don't advise to NOT do it.

    It's up to you and your own feelings and ideas if you want to leave Craig alone or not.

    On the one hand, I can fully understand that he had a lot of troubles and problems that he didn't expect, so he's probably down already and you probably shouldn't punch a guy who's already lying on the ground.

    On the other hand he wasn't really supportive and most probably lied a few times during the last two years - and we don't know where all that money went.

    Find more about my thoughts here - and decide for yourself what to do.

    2. So why are there two companies?

    Well, we developed the Pandora as a team, but each of us had their own shop setup including their own preorders.

    The team consists of different members from all over the world and each one had their own jobs to attend - having one major company together just wouldn't work easily.

    Each company had their own orders, customers and finances.

    If OpenPandora Ltd. runs out of funds, it doesn't mean OpenPandora GmbH does as well.

    OpenPandora GmbH cannot make any decisions for OpenPandora Ltd. and the other way round.

    OpenPandora GmbH does not have access to the accountings, customers, databases, etc. or similar of OpenPandora Ltd. and the other way round.

    Liable for your order is the company you ordered from - which most probably is OpenPandora Ltd. (since OpenPandora GmbH has delivered all units to their customers). It's the only company to direct refund requests to.

    3. But why did all OpenPandora GmbH customers get their unit, but not the OpenPandora Ltd. customers? Isn't it unfair?

    After a lot of issues there had been with manufacturers and OpenPandora Ltd. was mostly giving up, OpenPandora GmbH took over, made a plan to move the full production to Germany and deliver all remaining customers with the profit made from newly sold units.

    That plan worked well - except for one thing: Something seems to have gone wrong at OpenPandora Ltd.

    Please note that this is pure speculation - as I don't have access to any of the business documents of OpenPandora Ltd.

    I know some things though:

    • The number of remaining customers Craig (from OP Ltd.) told me in 2011 was 800
    • I bought parts for about 80,000 EUR from OP Ltd. so that they were able to pay refunds. I sent them hundreds of units. They made money from the 1GHz preorders. According to my calculations, the remaining number of preorders should be something about 100 - 150. Something OP GmbH could've taken care of, as planned.
    • There are more than 500 remaining preorders left in the queue of OpenPandora Ltd.
    OpenPandora Ltd. doesn't let us know anything, so we have no idea what exactly has gone wrong, where the money and the units went or anything else.Therefore, I cannot give you anymore information here.

    4. So my money is completely lost?

    Yes and no.

    Yes, the money is lost, as OpenPandora Ltd. is not able to fulfill your order or pay for refunds.

    No, the money is not fully lost, as OpenPandora GmbH and the community here are working together to get you your Pandora for a reduced price.

    5. What are my options?

    OpenPandora GmbH can offer you to sell a 1GHz Pandora for production costs. Please understand that the unit can't be sold for a lower price - I know you paid your unit already, but OpenPandora GmbH has never ever seen your money and can't afford to make a loss.

    OpenPandora GmbH can offer the following:

    • Get a 1GHz MegaPack unit right away for 300 EUR (or 357 EUR incl. 19% VAT)
    • (once they're back in stock)
    • Wait until the successor (the Pyra) has been finished and get it for production cost price(please note: I cannot assure you that it ever will be finished nor can I tell you a date for that, but I sure do hope so!)
    NOTE: Getting the units right away is only possible when they're in stock. Don't worry though - if NO unit is in stock, you can't order it.So you can be sure that the Pandora will be ready to be shipped whenever you place your order - no preorder or waiting time anymore!


    What OpenPandora GmbH can NOT offer (even though it was included as options in the survey):

    • Get a Classic Pandora right away without additional payment.This was an idea from Craig who claimed to have Classic Pandoras left - but it looks like he rather sold those via eBay than to deliver them to the customers who chose that option in the survey.
    • Get a Refund for your order.OpenPandora GmbH has never received any money from you and refunding anything here would be a full loss for the company.
    6. When should I send an eMail and when shouldn't I do that?
    Please send an eMail to shop@dragonbox.de when...

    • ... you didn't receive an eMail with your current status and the vouchers
    • ... you want the MegaPack upgrade email
    • ... your details in that eMail (items ordered, options chosen) are not correct
    • ... you didn't receive that eMail.
    • ... your eMail address has changed.
    • ... you don't plan to use any of the possibilities I can offer you (i.e. if you really want a refund), so I can strike you off the list and you won't receive any more emails from me.
    ALWAYS ADD YOUR ORIGINAL ORDER INFORMATION (order number, name, address, email used) WHEN SENDING AN EMAIL!

    Please DO NOT send an eMail...

    • ... to let me know your address has changed. You'll have to enter your current address anyways when ordering, so no need to let me know upfront.
    • ... if you have further questions that might be interesting for other customers as well. Please ask them at this thread.
    7. Final Words
    I'm really sorry about what happened and that you didn't get your unit.

    Please understand that I am doing anything I can to help you out, but my options are limited as well.

    Thanks for your understanding - and now let's finish the remaining preorders together!
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2016
    Tags:
    Znirk, moxie, Klumpen and 4 others like this.
  2. Ryan LeFevre

    Ryan LeFevre Guest

    Thanks for following up on the disaster that happened over at OpenPandora Ltd. It's been a long 5 years waiting for the handheld that never came.

    Just asking for clarification: if we would still like a refund, should we just post here or should we send in an email to get put on a list, or should we just post here?

    For the record, this is what I would like to do. My order number is: GXX8136099. Might be a long shot, but if anyone can help fulfill my refund, my bitcoin address is 1Lf7PfPyVsdtAuE7MYv5TTCHAwk7DGF71d

    Thanks guys!
     
  3. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Unfortunately, no one can help you here with a refund.

    You can check the above threads what you can legally do, but no one from OpenPandora Ltd. visits the boards anymore.
     
  4. T.T.

    T.T. Master of Lightning

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    So, if I decide to do the "wait until I get what I picked from the survey" option, do I have to do anything else? Or do I just wait patiently?
     
  5. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Just wait, as mentioned above :)
     
  6. budliz

    budliz Guest

    I had ordered the video-out cable in December 2009. I was lucky and got my Pandora but I have asked (via email [SIZE=10pt]openpandorasales@gmail.com[/SIZE]) for a refund for the cable several times and never received a reply. Are there any options apart from small claims court?  
     
  7. _wb_

    _wb_ Microbe Staff Member

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    I don't think so. Craig / OpenPandora Ltd. do not appear to be responding to emails, and they haven't been on this forum for a long, long time. It's probably a good idea to go to small claims court - you might not get your money back, but at least there's a better chance that Craig's bookkeeping gets some more scrutiny so we can find out where the money went.
     
  8. DaMummy

    DaMummy Soldier Paste

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    was it ever announced how much of a voucher one would get for a pandora successor if thats what we chose? this could determine what i'd do in the end
     
  9. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    That is impossible to tell before the production costs of the successor are known.
     
  10. CD

    CD Guest

    So let me get this straight, when we thought we were investing in the Pandora we weren't.  Unless we sent out money to EvilDragon we were really just giving our money to Craig to sit on.  Non of our money actually helped to finance the production of the Pandora?  So only ED money went towards design, build, distribute etc.  Craig just had a town of cash that he was making interest on, and didn't have to give any money to ED until units started shipping?

    worst captu ever if you are colorblind btw.
     
  11. rohezal

    rohezal Advanced Member

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    No

    No

    Craig used the money to buy parts, to pay some engineers who designed the Pandora, for the mould to create the case etc. . Just some money is "missing" (we don't know how Craig spendet it, if our own calculations are correct). One possible way how it was spended are the wages which craig paid himself and his workers to manufacture the Pandoras (connect the screen to the mainboard, put it into the case etc) and the rent of the manufacture building. The wages could have been paid in a time frame of 3 years. But it be would a lot of money i think it were 80K + 35K or some thing (so over 100K $).
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 7, 2013
  12. Kcrsh10

    Kcrsh10 Guest

    Hello everyone, same as all the over pre orderers still to receive a device I cant put my dissapointment in how this has panned out into words. I still want a Pandora, but if I am going to pay twice (ED I am truely appreciative of your upgrade at cost offer, so please dont take my last comment as a slight against openpandora GmbH) I need some closure from my experience with Openpandora Ltd. I have received very few communications form Craig et al, including not receiving the email notifiying the strike off order. I have had to hear that from the last email sent by ED. This has left a very bitter taste in my mouth. In regards to recouping my losses, the issue here is it will cost half the amount of the original order just to get to the small claims court, it is a very long process, and ultimatley will cost more in fee's and time off work, than the unit did. I am interested to know how many of us want to seek redress, and whether there is an advantage to persuing this as a group rather than individually. I really do understand the issues the project met, but that doesnt excuse the failure to deal with the situation in an adult and responsible manner. The more i think about this the more upset I become, because I simply want answers. If you are a failed pre orderer, and feel the same maybe we can form an Openpandora Ltd support group, and at least find out exatly what are options are?

    On a different note, in regard to the accounts, one of the requirements of being a Ltd company, in the UK, is you have to publicly publish you accounts on an annual basis, and OpenPandora Ltd have been doing this. If there are any accountants out there who want to look into this, they are cheap to get hold of, and may well answer some of our questions. I dont have the know how to examine them properly. but they are available if any one is interested or able to do so.

    Kcrsh10
     
  13. hedwards

    hedwards Active Member

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    Unfortunately the situation sucks. I know I did my share of cursing when I realized that I was going to have to shell out for the upgrade.

    It's always appreciated when people post a level headed comment when they're griping. I hadn't realized that the books were supposed to be published and presumably were. Perhaps folks would like to contribute towards hiring an accountant to go over them. Which seems like a much more reasonable course of action than taking things to small claims court where he's not likely to bring anything that's going to lead to losing the case if possible and the court has limited ability to compell him to bring specific evidence.

    Other than that, the likely options are to pass the hat for a proper suit against Craig's company or to just accept what's likely to be inevitable.
     
  14. RK

    RK Guest

    FYI, you can find some of the public information just by doing a google search for "openpandora ltd" (including quotes). Accurately interpreting the information might still require an accountant or auditor though...
     
  15. eazrael

    eazrael Still Fresh

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    I answered in http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14913-openpandora-ltd-uk-struck-off-email/?p=296148 to keep this thread clean.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  16. notaz

    notaz Certified Guru

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    According to Stuart Fox it's £25, so maybe it isn't:

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14913-openpandora-ltd-uk-struck-off-email/?p=294737

    With an active case you can easily object the strike off by just sending an email:

    http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/14571-has-anyone-at-all-managed-to-get-ahold-of-craig/page-5?p=292938#entry292938
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  17. hedwards

    hedwards Active Member

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    That's just the fee for filing. There's still a couple hundred quid for the court costs and there's the day off work. As well as relevant travel expenses to file with the court that has jurisdiction.

    As long as you win and are awarded compensation for that, it's not a big deal, but if you lose, which is always possible, you could still be out hundreds of quid.

    Or at least that's what I turned up when I read up on it after being accused of not knowing the system. In order to be cost effective there's a lot of the normal process that's been removed to stream line things, which means that even if there is evidence that demonstrates liability, you might not have access to it in court. Or it might not be admissible.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  18. notaz

    notaz Certified Guru

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    Last edited by a moderator: Feb 6, 2016
  19. al

    al Guest

    So. If I want to order a classic Pandora and a 1ghz upgrade. Can I do these separately? As the 1ghz version is currently out of stock!
     
  20. EvilDragon

    EvilDragon Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes, you can use the voucher for the 1GHz later.
     

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