Quotations, Production speed and the future (2011-09-01)

[EvilDragon]

First, my business plan includes that my company buys the remaining parts from Craigs company so that everything is handled from one company.

Are you saying that Craig is jumping ship with regard to the Pandora?

I doubt this is the case, it prob just makes more sense for the business plan to succeed.

Exactly.


It's nigh impossible to get investors if you try to tell them "There are other parts, I don't own them, but they exist" )


They need to see a plan that involves that your company alone can do the full production without any other company needed.


So even just a written offer from Craigs Company for what price I can buy the parts and in the same time a written offer from my company to his company about the same amount of money for finished Pandoras would be enough.

 

[Caine]

I suspected that. I was just trying to understand Craigs role in the new company better as it sounded a bit that you are taking over the entire Pandora operation.


Well, this all ties into the corporate structure between your companies. I'll await your business plan instead of trying to milk you for information

 

[Invader Amoto]

First, my business plan includes that my company buys the remaining parts from Craigs company so that everything is handled from one company.

Are you saying that Craig is jumping ship with regard to the Pandora?

I doubt this is the case, it prob just makes more sense for the business plan to succeed.

Exactly.


It's nigh impossible to get investors if you try to tell them "There are other parts, I don't own them, but they exist" )


They need to see a plan that involves that your company alone can do the full production without any other company needed.


So even just a written offer from Craigs Company for what price I can buy the parts and in the same time a written offer from my company to his company about the same amount of money for finished Pandoras would be enough.

So final assembly is still handled entirely by Craig and his setup, and RMAs are still handled entirely by you? And you're essentially buying a portion of the parts, and paying Craig's company to assemble those, while he assembles and sells his own portion of them?

 

[andmaz]

ED you need to go on Dragons Den and bag one of those for an investment - sounds silly but at this stage it looking more like a business that could make a good return if done right.


With the right exposure this could sell many 10,000s and every few years another upgraded version released - it could go on forever.

 

[PatientFan]

Thanks for the news, to me this sounds good! The most important thing is that the project survives.


Two questions:


1) Do you want people who have already paid to place new (free) pre-orders?


(Personally, I think that should not be necessary.)


2) Has anybody tried to talk to CircuitCo about what it would take to increase their production?


They probably are losing money on the project now. Maybe a deal could be made with them, something like this:


"For each month where the number of WORKING and DELIVERED Pandoras exceeds 200 pieces, we will pay an extra US$ 30.- per Pandora".


The numbers are only guesses, just to illustrate the idea. The additional money would have to come from the new inverstors, of course.


Maybe this would be a way to establish an ongoing production until Germany is ready? (Or even have TWO working production lines!)

 

[Caine]

"For each month where the number of WORKING and DELIVERED Pandoras exceeds 200 pieces, we will pay an extra US$ 30.- per Pandora".

Are you crazy? They fail to produce and deliver the products they are paid for (and contractually obliged to produce) and you want to reward them for it? I would rather sue them for breach of contract.

 

[PatientFan]

"For each month where the number of WORKING and DELIVERED Pandoras exceeds 200 pieces, we will pay an extra US$ 30.- per Pandora".

Are you crazy? They fail to produce and deliver the products they are paid for (and contractually obliged to produce) and you want to reward them for it? I would rather sue them for breach of contract.

The reward would of course be for the opposite, for actual PRODUCTION: Pandoras in our hands. But I see your point - it really depends on what the situation is.


I surely prefer that my money go to a person assembling my Pandora at CircuitCo rather than into a court case, which may be drawn out for years.


The "blame game" should not be our first solution. I doubt that CircuitCo had an evil plan to intentionally destroy the project. They made mistakes and now have a problem. But so do we. Maybe a solution can be found that helps both sides. I don't know if that IS possible, but I suggest that this option be considered.

 

[dgame]

Could there be a paid pre-order option? I don't like having charges hit my account well into the future as money conditions change over time. I would prefer to pay up front and wait like last time.

 

[WizardStan]

They made mistakes and now have a problem. But so do we. Maybe a solution can be found that helps both sides. I don't know if that IS possible, but I suggest that this option be considered.

If they have a problem, throwing more money at them won't make the problem go away.


Unless their problem is "we didn't feel like it, had bigger customers with easier boards to get through, but if you pay us more we'll put you at top priority" of course.

 

[hedwards]

It sounds like 4 years down the pan, to me - and the majority of people who originally ordered, and a significant portions of those who bought "premium" units, still haven't got what was promised multiple times. And in a couple of years time, assuming all goes perfectly from here on in, those units from the first batch will probably still be warned against due to poor production quality. I don't see how that's "looking good".

1300 preordered units left (Batch 1 + Batch 2) versus about 2800 delivered units.


Where is your majority that didn't get it yet?

I think the problem is unfortunately one of confusion. And as gracious and industrious as you are at getting us the best information you can, there's a lot of information that appears to need to come from Craig.


In this case, I suspect that the problem is that we haven't had a status update in months and none of us really know how to translate the queue number estimates that we have from Craig's shop into some sort of meaningful position in line. Additionally, there's things which were never really answered in the first place, such as what effect the re-paying had on the queue position.


I have to admit to being somewhat skeptical myself about being that close because I would have thought that there were a lot more cancellations than the numbers you're giving would allow for. Especially since they apparently include the second batch.


At the end of the day, for those of us that ordered during the first pre-order period who haven't yet received a unit, it's difficult to continue being patient when the one person that has access to the information which may clear some of this up isn't giving any more. And the person who is willing to give information just doesn't have access to additional information to give.

 

[ahahah]

i think their problem is: they don't honor the contract they bound at the beginning.


(i'm talking about cc, of course)

 

[JackTheKnife]

Sooo... CircuitCo is crawling along at 100 a month (current rates) with 1000 to go (and doling out what is half-a-step up from refurbished units), and the very best Germany will be able to manage it November/December if things go to plan (and how often does that happen around here?), so being near the end of Batch One...


I'm not going to see my Pandora before 2012, am I?

So Ed no answer for that question? We are "investors" from Batch1 and expect to hear report.

 

[WizardStan]

So Ed no answer for that question? We are "investors" from Batch1 and expect to hear report.

We aren't investors in any legal sense. We are customers and entitled to one of two things: the product paid for or a refund. It's nice when ED is able to dish out information, but he is in no way required to do so.

 

[C0smikD3bris]

So Ed no answer for that question? We are "investors" from Batch1 and expect to hear report.

What is this shit about being an 'INVESTOR' just because you paid for a single unit up front?


We are all CUSTOMERS in good faith, possibly classifiable as a group buy at best.

 

[isc.grant]

1300 preordered units left (Batch 1 + Batch 2) versus about 2800 delivered units.


Where is your majority that didn't get it yet?

ED where do you get your numbers from? I ordered on 10/3/2008 and as of 2/10/2011 I was placed at 1400 – 1500 in the queue. I am not complaining I am confused. Another post from “50 Pandoras shipping today” thread

10/3/08 and still waiting...

So I am not alone. Are any pre-orders being shipped any longer or just repair and premium orders? I'm glad you are getting your business plan together and trying to find investors but don't forget pre-order people are your current investors. I ordered from craig so it isn't your problem so I am sorry for venting on you but craig doesn't talk much about this stuff (other than telling us to go away) and at least you try to keep us informed so thanks for that.

 

[EvilDragon]

Sooo... CircuitCo is crawling along at 100 a month (current rates) with 1000 to go (and doling out what is half-a-step up from refurbished units), and the very best Germany will be able to manage it November/December if things go to plan (and how often does that happen around here?), so being near the end of Batch One...


I'm not going to see my Pandora before 2012, am I?

So Ed no answer for that question? We are "investors" from Batch1 and expect to hear report.

While I'm browsing these boards quite often, I'm not her 24/7 and therefore do not reply to each question within a few hours.


Besides, what should I tell you?


You know very well that no one knows how fast CC will deliver the remaining units, so what do you want to hear?


And as the others said: You are a customer, not an investor.


There's a VERY big difference.

ED where do you get your numbers from? I ordered on 10/3/2008 and as of 2/10/2011 I was placed at 1400 – 1500 in the queue. I am not complaining I am confused. Another post from “50 Pandoras shipping today” thread

I know I've got 500 left (300 from Batch 1 and 200 from Batch 2) and Craig mentioned he's got 800 left.


There were some upgrades and quite a few cancellations, so the queue is completely useless I guess.

So I am not alone. Are any pre-orders being shipped any longer or just repair and premium orders? I'm glad you are getting your business plan together and trying to find investors but don't forget pre-order people are your current investors. I ordered from craig so it isn't your problem so I am sorry for venting on you but craig doesn't talk much about this stuff (other than telling us to go away) and at least you try to keep us informed so thanks for that.

We don't have that many boards that need a repair, it's mostly nubs and LCD Cables and I do repair these.


When I find some time, I will ship out more units to customers (still have boards left I need to test and build), don't know what Craig will do, but as he doesn't take new orders right now, I don't think they will go premium,

 

[LineOf7s]

Sooo... CircuitCo is crawling along at 100 a month (current rates) with 1000 to go (and doling out what is half-a-step up from refurbished units), and the very best Germany will be able to manage it November/December if things go to plan (and how often does that happen around here?), so being near the end of Batch One...


I'm not going to see my Pandora before 2012, am I?

So Ed no answer for that question? We are "investors" from Batch1 and expect to hear report.

Besides, what should I tell you?


You know very well that no one knows how fast CC will deliver the remaining units, so what do you want to hear?


And as the others said: You are a customer, not an investor.


There's a VERY big difference.

Yes we know: Investors are to be chased, convinced, enticed and wooed. Customers are just a pain in the arse needing to be handled until you can get them the stuff they've paid for or they give up.


I can still remember when customers were being chased, convinced, enticed and wooed. Now it's just "STFU OR GTFO", and frankly, that's heart-breaking.


Yeah yeah I know - cancel or wait. I know my choices.


[edit] I should make it clear that 'you' in this isn't EvilDragon per se - I loves him to death as much as the next forum-goer. This is just in response to getting from OpenPandora (whatever that is) at best a hollow "thanks for sticking with us!" and at worst open contempt. Sometimes one's sunny disposition and staunch determinism fails one when the message of "You'll get your Pandora when you get your Pandora and there's nothing we can do about it, so we'll go about preparing to sell Pandoras to people who've never even heard of it yet" comes altogether too often or too soon.

 

[PatientFan]

They made mistakes and now have a problem. But so do we. Maybe a solution can be found that helps both sides. I don't know if that IS possible, but I suggest that this option be considered.

If they have a problem, throwing more money at them won't make the problem go away.


Unless their problem is "we didn't feel like it, had bigger customers with easier boards to get through, but if you pay us more we'll put you at top priority" of course.

i think their problem is: they don't honor the contract they bound at the beginning.


(i'm talking about cc, of course)

Please correct me if I am mistaken: The way I understood it is that the boards suffered from corrosion because production was delayed in order to wait for the cases from China. That would mean that a legal case might not be as clear-cut as one could hope. But as stated: I may be wrong here.


And yes: Essentially the question comes down to: "How much money would it take to make Pandora a project of interest for CircuitCo?"


It could be seen as an investment, just like moving production to Germany. The numbers would have to work out, then it might make sense.

 

[GizmoAgent]

The boards suffered from corrosion because the nubs had to be re-worked.


CC was told to continue populating the boards as the nub are soldered on last anyway.


CC chose to ignore their customers (OpenPandora) instructions and left the boards unpopulated until the nubs arrived, a few months later.


CC had may have had their reasons for this but it wasn't really their choice to make and now they have to clean every board before population.

 

[b_o_b]

I don't really understand the investing part. What will an investor be getting from investing in the product? Expected ROI?