Paper Wars

[Blue Protoman]

Did you look at the sounds I gave you, traylorpark? If so, what do you think?

 

[kayuz]

yes! Paper Wars is the first winner of the compo! congrats traylorpark and crow

 

[traylorpark]

Did you look at the sounds I gave you, traylorpark? If so, what do you think?

Hey, I did take a listen to those sounds. Thanks ve much for being so interested in helping. At the moment though I think crow and I are gonna try and pusue a sound a bit less chippy.

 

[fusion_power]

Continuing my suggestions, I recommend to have a better way to bring troops to the front in the "endgame". Could be done while capturing strategic well placed factories near the enemies Homebase or simply by adding a Transport vehicle that can load up troops and move them much faster to the front. Maybe this job can be done by the Heli? ^^" I only was able to win paper Wars by spamming alot of Copters to the enemy base - and loosing alot because the enemy troops are so strong against Heli and the Heli is pretty weak against the enemy HQ. There jiust was no time to bring my own tanks/troops to the enemy fast enough.
I know it is not easy to balance a Map, that's why I usualy made "mirrored" Maps for Advance Wars, so every side had equal chances. I also know that this is not always wanted, for example when fighting against the Computer, even Advance Wars AI only had a chance against the Player because the Maps were heavily optimized for the AI and to the disadvantage of the Player, maybe you know the last Level in AW2 - "unfair" didn't even describe it ^^". Advance Wars AI was actualy very poor, at least fighting against itself. I usualy tested my maps by doing AI vs AI fights, however, it was quite funny to watch sometimes.
I can imagine that Paper Wars does a better job there, I really recommend to test the game with alot AI vs. AI fights, so you can improve the AI itself AND the Maps.

 

[crow_riot]

thanks fusion for you suggestions, really welcome.

i've already suggested to add that transport functionality to the copter to traylorpark, but we are going add per-unit special powers that will overcome this issue of the soldier unit. we've ideas already what to add to the other units, too.

i'm programming the AI mostly while watching AI-vs-AI. i'm able to update the AI while the game is running, which really helps a lot. like you said, it's actually quite fun to see how that turns out sometimes.

traylorpark is at the moment designing a new (bigger) map, where he tries to incorporate some suggestions and balance it a bit more.

i've implemented game saving; if you leave the map, you can just resume it on a later point.
height advantages are also in: you can now shoot your enemies from higher areas (even over edges gives where you cant move over), which gives you a shot power advantage (and disadvantage to the enemy).

 

[fusion_power]

Sounds good, the height Advantage was not in the released demo, right? At least I did not noticed that. Now that you built this in, an indication of this Advantage would be great, some small pre-fight display of how the fight would develop (damage given/taken with height advantages calculated in) would be nice, helps to plan and keep the Overview, at least for me. Does this also mean, the Heli always has a height Advantage? ^^
At the current Map I also have sometimes not the best overview, some kind of optional Top-Down-View would be a great feature, including (also optional) Hexagon-overlay over the complete map (if possible).
Game saving is great, I had a complete freeze in Paper Wars and after a restart the game was lost, saving progress really would help there. ^^

Oh, do you plan more Animations? Exploding Units and so on, at the Moment, they just vanish after defeating them.

And to come back to the Pandora Touchscreen behavior, is this on purpose that you have to press very long until a action is starting? Kills the "gameflow" somehow and I guess I already press the stylus through the screen, until it is recognized in the game.

 

[crow_riot]

height advantage was not implemented in the compo version, no. height advantage is only taken from the hex height, the units height (the heli ones) doesnt count for obvious reasons

i dont know about the prefight visualization yet, need to talk with traylorpark about that. also animations and what not, i've suggested that, but art+design is his part, not mine

and ... touchscreen handling is quite shitty, yes. i need to go over that code again, for the next release

 

[fusion_power]

height advantage was not implemented in the compo version, no. height advantage is only taken from the hex height, the units height (the heli ones) doesnt count for obvious reasons

i dont know about the prefight visualization yet, need to talk with traylorpark about that. also animations and what not, i've suggested that, but art+design is his part, not mine

and ... touchscreen handling is quite shitty, yes. i need to go over that code again, for the next release

"prefight visualization" doesn't have to be a complex thing, just some numbers when you mark an Enemy in range (before attacking him) that show your chances.

What engine do you use actualy? Runs quite fluid on the Pandora what I really like. ^^ And are the Levels made "modular" or designed entirely as "one piece"? I have some basic Blender Skills and know that Blender is not easy to master, so I find it even more impressive how the game looks and works.

 

[crow_riot]

"prefight visualization" doesn't have to be a complex thing, just some numbers when you mark an Enemy in range (before attacking him) that show your chances.

there's a little random factor that modifies the final outcome, so previs in the current state is not fully possible

What engine do you use actualy? Runs quite fluid on the Pandora what I really like. ^^

the engine is my own "invention". started it before audiorace, continued it for it and improved it over time for paperwars.
it's pretty straight forward scene tree rendering (like ogre does), no big magic. it's just designed by me for me and how i wanted it to be

And are the Levels made "modular" or designed entirely as "one piece"? I have some basic Blender Skills and know that Blender is not easy to master, so I find it even more impressive how the game looks and works.

everything is fully modelled and animated in blender. traylorpark does an awesome job here, he's a real blender master, for sure.

 

[pmprog]

Found this from the OpenPandora boards. I'm so glad you made a Pandora port, though I'm afraid I was too slow to vote at Riot, but this would have got mine.

Well done on what you've done so far, absolutely love it. I've been trying to scan the whole thread, but there's a lot, so here's some thoughts as I've mulled through

1. 3 moves per turn is great - Don't limit to 1 per unit, that gives a distinct advantage those the side with the larger army. I don't think XCOM style Time Units would give you anything worthwhile.

2. Elevation - Given what was in the demo, I don't think including elevation in the battle mechanics would be a good thing without the "transport option" on the chopper to do drops, otherwise you could wall up with a bunch of tanks with some men taking out choppers.

To be honest, I really liked the simple but devastatingly effective paper-scissors-stone between man-tank-chopper. If I were writing the game, I wouldn't be tempted to add too much more (in terms of mechanics).

BTW - Is this the best place to keep up to date on the development of the game?

 

[fusion_power]

there's a little random factor that modifies the final outcome, so previs in the current state is not fully possible

It's OK, it doesn't have to be exact. Just some slightly indication would be nice, only a direction of how the fight would end. Helpful when height plays a role in the game. maybe the indication of only the extra height-caused damage or so could already help so an extra + or - damage of the unit, depending of how the height is. ^^
Oh, highlighting Units that are behind a building or obstacle also would be nice, some framing around that shines through the building or so, at least when selecting the unit.

To be honest, I really liked the simple but devastatingly effective paper-scissors-stone between man-tank-chopper. If I were writing the game, I wouldn't be tempted to add too much more (in terms of mechanics).

Yupp, but in reality, I doubt that a Soldier would have an advantage over an Attack Helicopter.

 

[traylorpark]

1 - Even when I had every building, enemy still can build units like mad, does the CPU cheat? The 3-Moves-Limit is not easy to learn, it takes ages to move new units to the front, and you can't defend the front correctly when you have to move and heal other units. Makes the game insane hard with more than a handful of units, I guess Paper Wars is designed to only have a few units or so.

2 - During combat, I guess I noticed that the Enemy still can fire, even if he is actualy dead, because HP are reduced only at the end of the round, I would prefer that an enemy can't fire and instantly vanishes when its HP are 0. Or at least that HPs are instantly reduced. Displaying stuff like "critical Hits" with special Graphics or so would be also nice, if crits exists of course.

3 - The Game needs more ingame feedback, I don't see enemy moves outside of the camera, an option for displaying enemy moves (camera move to place of enemy action and then back) would be great.

4 - More Usage of gaming buttons also would be nice, switching through Units etc...

5 - Can I actualy heal Buildings? Also, nice feature would be if Units can pass directly through Cities, at least captured Cities. At the moment you have to move around a city even if it is yours.

6 - The Map itself is not that good balanced IMHO, at least not fo a game with a Move Limit of 3. Orange has a clear advantage over the terrain and blue has a hard task to do with sending troops to the enemy base or to other buildings. It should be tweaked here and there for better "game-flow".

7 - EDIT 2: I forgot one thing: When you do 3 Shots with one unit in a row for example, there should be 3 shooting animations instead of one, makes more fun I think. BAM!-BAM!-BAM!

Excellent thoughtful feedback! I'm beside myself with these comments. So encouraging!
I broke your comments down so I can easily address them.

1. Hahaha, the CPU does not cheat. The CPU was tuned to be a challenge for Crow and I. I'll tell you one secret for Paper Wars, its that you don't ever focus all of your moves on a single unit. Distribute all of your moves to doing multiple actions across the battle field. Don't just move 1 unit 3 times, move 3 units 1 time. Of course adapt this to the situation, but you should be conscious of this.

Because your turns are short, focus on bite-sized goals, don't go for the gold right from the start. You need gold, get that. You want to control the helipad, capture that. (just controlling the helipad is sometimes more useful then having a helicopter). Rally around points that can heal your units. When you have enough units, push to the next destination by distributing your moves to all your units.

2. I just checked this ... I couldn't see this. I think Crow fixed this a while back.

3. Agree completely.

4. This get's a maybe ... are you really interested in cycling though all your units on the screen? Our goal is to make this as completely touch driven as possible, with as little on screen clutter as possible. Not against your idea, how do you see cycling units as a benefit?

5. Can't heal buildings. Actually, when moves are calculated, if your unit can access a hex on the opposite side of a structure, that hex will show up and your unit will move there.

6. I tried to design each side to require slightly different thinking in strategy. Blue has the benefit of being able to distribute their units around the map faster. Also, each side has direct access to their own city. A hint for over coming Orange is not to attack the base directly, but to focus on the platform below the base.

Orange only has one exit from it's base ... you can use that as your advantage when attacking ... and overwhelm that platform below the orange base by bringing in units from 2 sides.

7. I guess its a matter of taste. I just wanted to keep he game going fast, but make the explosions bigger. We are still tweaking that.

1. 3 moves per turn is great - Don't limit to 1 per unit, that gives a distinct advantage those the side with the larger army. I don't think XCOM style Time Units would give you anything worthwhile.

2. Elevation - Given what was in the demo, I don't think including elevation in the battle mechanics would be a good thing without the "transport option" on the chopper to do drops, otherwise you could wall up with a bunch of tanks with some men taking out choppers.

To be honest, I really liked the simple but devastatingly effective paper-scissors-stone between man-tank-chopper. If I were writing the game, I wouldn't be tempted to add too much more (in terms of mechanics).

BTW - Is this the best place to keep up to date on the development of the game?

1. your right! 3 moves per turn naturally balances the teams a bit regardless of how many units each team might have. More important then the amount of units you have is having quick access to any of the three units and being able to adapt to the situation.

2. We are gonna be trying some powerups, where that shouldn't be a problem

 

[fusion_power]

1. Hahaha, the CPU does not cheat. The CPU was tuned to be a challenge for Crow and I. I'll tell you one secret for Paper Wars, its that you don't ever focus all of your moves on a single unit. Distribute all of your moves to doing multiple actions across the battle field. Don't just move 1 unit 3 times, move 3 units 1 time. Of course adapt this to the situation, but you should be conscious of this.

I know, I play like this. But the Soldiers just eat up so much moves until they are reaching combat area, makes it hard to plan. ^^ Moving a unit or shooting or healing another unit...hard decissions.

Because your turns are short, focus on bite-sized goals, don't go for the gold right from the start. You need gold, get that. You want to control the helipad, capture that. (just controlling the helipad is sometimes more useful then having a helicopter). Rally around points that can heal your units. When you have enough units, push to the next destination by distributing your moves to all your units.

First thing I capture is the Heli Pad. Straight march to it and got it. I learned from Advance Wars that it is a nice tactic to care for the buildings in the distance first because the near ones you can always get with a later built unit in the same time. CPU usualy wastes time to capture near buildings first, that gies me time to capture the strategic more important points in the distance. But pssst - it's a secret Pro-tactic.

Orange only has one exit from it's base ... you can use that as your advantage when attacking ... and overwhelm that platform below the orange base by bringing in units from 2 sides.

Orange has two I thought: the slope down to the City and the Bridge to the Heli Pad. ^^

7. I guess its a matter of taste. I just wanted to keep he game going fast, but make the explosions bigger. We are still tweaking that.

You could make it optional, it is just a repeating of the Animation. I really would like to see each shot I do. Because at first I was confused that the weaker enemy killed my stronger Unit with one shot...of course it was not just one Shot but it looked like this.
Making the game faster would be already to improve the Touchscreen controls, they are very unresponsive at the moment and clicking takes ages until it is accepted.

 

[pmprog]

7. I guess its a matter of taste. I just wanted to keep he game going fast, but make the explosions bigger. We are still tweaking that.

You could make it optional, it is just a repeating of the Animation. I really would like to see each shot I do. Because at first I was confused that the weaker enemy killed my stronger Unit with one shot...of course it was not just one Shot but it looked like this.
Making the game faster would be already to improve the Touchscreen controls, they are very unresponsive at the moment and clicking takes ages until it is accepted.

I was thinking you need the damage coming off a unit to ascend from the unit, you know, old school style and with this, you could ascend a red "x2" or "x3" for multishots

 

[fusion_power]

Every indication would be fine.

 

[traylorpark]

Hey ya'll, perhaps you'd be interested in seeing a map in progress.

This here is the invisible grid layout that determines where units can move and where buildings are situated. It's all laid out in blender.

A design goal of this map was to create a large area where strategic battles take place. Another feature that is taken into account in the map is using height to your advantage to gain a bit of an upper hand in conflicts.

Crow and I are also working on some nifty power ups for the units.
Such as, addressing the shortcomings of certain units.
Supporting units/squads that are far away from bases ... etc...

 

[kayuz]

REALLY good!! i hope to see more maps in the game and, CAMPAIGN?

 

[traylorpark]

a campaign? maybe eventually, not currently

 

[fusion_power]

Looks good so far, even if there is not much to see yet. ^^
Interesting technique, all done per hand in Blender, no Map Editor with prefab "modules" for easy placement I would prefer. ( I love ingame map-editors )
I'm not good in designing well balanced, non mirrored maps so I only made "mirrored" maps in Advance wars. I know how hard even this is to balance, so respect for your unequal map designs. I never found out how they balance all these complex maps in C&C, Warcraft, Starcraft, Warhammer... I guess this needs intense testing sessions.
Power Ups also sounds very nice, there need to be some (movement) boost here and there, especialy on larger maps.

 

[Darkknight512]

This looks absolutely amazing, I hope a Wiz build is on the way (or somebody gunna get hurt real bad...)