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That's very sucky... 
Paper Wars
- Thread starter traylorpark
- Start date
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
Fusionpower things dont work this way. Dont comment if you know nothing about game dev seriously.
pmprog
DNF (Did Not Finish)
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Your patronisation aside, I'm curious what FusionPower said that you think doesn't work "this way"?
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
Putting placeholders in the game for missing assets. That's what I was referring to. If you intend to sell the game (which was the original plan), that just won't do.
Ziz
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pmprog
DNF (Did Not Finish)
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Sure, but there's nothing against stripping all the art work out and finding a new artist; Unless there was some contract in place when they started this.
HolySmoke
Guardian Lion
But placeholders are the Paper Wars way, I knew that even in 2007
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1128694/Paper_Wars_Title
(actually, the vid is from 2004, but was only uploaded in 2007 ^^)
http://www.myvideo.de/watch/1128694/Paper_Wars_Title
(actually, the vid is from 2004, but was only uploaded in 2007 ^^)
fusion_power
Advanced Member
I don't mean in the final game of course, smartass! Of course you can continue to code and use some placeholder graphics until you insert finished ones, that was all I meant. On the other side, if you may have finished gfx but no coder, it's hard to continue with the game itself, logical. Do I really write that confusing?
And no reason to kick in, Ziz! I kow I'm some kind of red spot to you but please, behave.
Seriously, can't we do a discussion here without anyone starts the usual "you have no clue" crap? <_<
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Ziz
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Never. :>
to calm the "discussion" down... there's no reason for placeholder graphics, because it's the way ekianjo said: art is missing, the main menu graphics for example. i dont remember what else, but it wasnt much imho.
sound was also/is also missing, but we have been in contact with a composer from the boards, who already picked up work, but also stopped because of obvious reasons.
my work was pretty much done. it is feature complete as far as it was initially planned. we were discussing additional ones to spice up gameplay, but there were just one or two mails about that, discussing basic ideas.
the iOS version was also already up and running. network games were possible between all supported platforms: iOS, pandora, wiz/caanoo, windows and mac. I even had a version running perfectly fine in the browser by using emscripten - it could have been one of the first full emscripten based games released.
so, i have done my part of the job. there are parts that could have done better, but we could have improved that once released with user feedback.
replacing the assets with other ones could be a way, but it just doesn't feel right. paper wars lives with its art or dies without.
sound was also/is also missing, but we have been in contact with a composer from the boards, who already picked up work, but also stopped because of obvious reasons.
my work was pretty much done. it is feature complete as far as it was initially planned. we were discussing additional ones to spice up gameplay, but there were just one or two mails about that, discussing basic ideas.
the iOS version was also already up and running. network games were possible between all supported platforms: iOS, pandora, wiz/caanoo, windows and mac. I even had a version running perfectly fine in the browser by using emscripten - it could have been one of the first full emscripten based games released.
so, i have done my part of the job. there are parts that could have done better, but we could have improved that once released with user feedback.
replacing the assets with other ones could be a way, but it just doesn't feel right. paper wars lives with its art or dies without.
fusion_power
Advanced Member
"Feature complete" sounds good. Even the iOS version was running, so the game is far more advanced than I thought, nice. I hope you can get in contact with traylorpark. He may be busy but if there is really not much to do for the final release, it should be worth to convince him to finish his job. I would not want to have all graphics replaced by another artist, that would be indeed bad.
The crossplay feature may be also an very strong argument for the game by the way. ^^
I hope you can get in contact with traylorpark. He may be busy but if there is really not much to do for the final release, it should be worth to convince him to finish his job. I would not want to have all graphics replaced by another artist, that would be indeed bad.The crossplay feature may be also an very strong argument for the game by the way. ^^
Wrath Of Khan
Soul soother...
If it's as progressed as you say then get a new artist. Someone who can develop a new style for it and well... screw Traylor park!
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
Yeah, but that's a lot of work, and Traylorpark has done an excellent job so far. It will be difficult to find someone who can do something similar - and it's definitely a 6 months job or more to recreate all assets from scratch. People don't work for free usually.
Oh come on. You never stopped anything in your whole lifetime, because of your job/life situation ? Throwing stones to him is not helping here.
ekianjo
Hardcore Member
Sorry, not directed to you personally here, but when it's obvious someone has no experience in something and is giving advice on that kind of topic they are not really knowledgeable about, that just does not help the conversation - this is not Reddit here. It's better to step away, listen to what experienced people have to say first (there are many (amateur & pro) game developers here in these boards who can have some valid comments to make) and then form your own judgment.
Like, I would not give any advice on cooking or other subjects I can not write anything educated about.
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pmprog
DNF (Did Not Finish)
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I never said it'd be easy or quick... but it would at least give Crow a way to "finish" the project
No, but if Crow is still considering selling the game, he could arrange a profit-share. Happens all the time on TIGsource
fusion_power
Advanced Member
Do you even know me? I usualy write about stuff including my own experience, otherwise I would not write such things, or I would just ask then. Your experience may differ but from my PERSONAL experience I can write, right?
To be precise, years back I worked at a software company. They had many gfx artists but not enough coders. Result was, they were not be able to finish certain projects and the company went bancrupt. (and no, it was not my fault!
)The other way round there are many indie projects where graphics are still placeholders but that doesn't affect the actual game development much. Search for "factorio" for example, they have a nice dev blog. Their main gfx guy left but they continued and recently even replaced alot of placeholders with finished art. Game is early access but already very playable and you can be sure to hear more of it in the furute.
The situation may be different here in case of Paper Wars bt overall I would not say my assumption was that wrong. There is still hope that the game can be finished
No need to witch-hunt traylorpark ... I totally understand that his life has changed completely, and that he just does not have enough time to work in PW right now. I dont know if it will change anytime soon, though.
We dont have any written agreement, it just started as a project by 2 guys who met on the internet. PW is about 99% his idea with some input from my side, so it just doesnt feel right to let someone else change the graphics and sell it under a different name. I'm not the person for this. I also dont have the money to pay someone doing it. And I've burned my fingers once now, so I definitely wont ask some random internet person for help and profit share. I've learned my lesson.
at the end of the day I have a core framework, that works on a lot of systems. I'm using it for another non-pandora related project at my job right now. so my work wasnt fully useless.
We dont have any written agreement, it just started as a project by 2 guys who met on the internet. PW is about 99% his idea with some input from my side, so it just doesnt feel right to let someone else change the graphics and sell it under a different name. I'm not the person for this. I also dont have the money to pay someone doing it. And I've burned my fingers once now, so I definitely wont ask some random internet person for help and profit share. I've learned my lesson.
at the end of the day I have a core framework, that works on a lot of systems. I'm using it for another non-pandora related project at my job right now. so my work wasnt fully useless.
pmprog
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As a developer, I'm very curious about this, if I might ask you a few questions?Is it a single code base? or do you have one per platform?
Are there (m)any platform-specific segments?
Which platform(s) were easiest and hardest to implement?
I'm glad to hear that's the case
There's one codebase for all platforms. The platform details are hidden away by abstract interfaces.
So e.g. I've an AudioPlayer base class and then there are various implementations of it, like AudioPlayerSDL, AudioPlayerOpenAL, an AudioPlayerWiz which derives from AudioPlayerSDL but directly sets the volume on the Wiz' mixer device.
Every platform related class has a static Create function where I decide what to return depending on the build target (Wiz on the Wiz, SDL on most others, OpenAL is not really used atm
).There aren't too many platform specific parts, i try to keep them as small as possible, but they're usually needed when you need well platform specific implementations.
I've a socket class that uses winsock on windows, bsd sockets where available, and CFSocket on mac/iOS.
I usually try to get away by finding a library that does platform specifics for me, but it's rarely the case, because of either licensing (you can't use LGPL code on iOS because iOS only allows static linking) or now emscripten platform.
So i end up using a mixture of both worlds, sometimes using a library on windows and abstracting it away and then implementing the interface for iOS/emscripten.
Easiest for me was windows, because I'm developing on the windows platform from the very beginning.
The hardest definitely was OSX, because I havent work with a Mac ever before. The most difficult part was to find the right search-terms to get an answer out of google. For windows i just know what to search for, but I was totally lost at the very beginning with OSX.
Rockthesmurf
Advanced Member
Would you consider going via the traditional publisher model? By this I mean pitch the game as it to some publishers, see if any bite, if they do get a minimum guarantee from them, use the minimum guarantee to get any audio/graphics that are missing, do the code tweaks etc. as required and ultimately put the game out on the market. Hopefully make a bit of cash. Ensure the contract only covers iOS/Android if possible. Etc.?
