Name of the extra modifier (Fn/Meta/Sym/...)

[levi]

I suppose a solution could be to physically label the key(s) as "AltGr" but actually refer to them as something else internally in the software (e.g. Meta or Hyper).

I don't fully understand the logic here (as I've mostly been avoiding the keyboard threads), but I'm not comfortable with labelling a key as something and referring to it as something else in software - that introduces potentional for confusion between developers and users which I don't think needs much help (judging from the DraStic thread tonight). If we have an AltGr button it should be AltGr internally, and if that's a reason not to have it as a modifier then I guess I'll have to change my vote. FWIW I've no problem with AltGr not doing exactly the same as what it does on a big keyboard, as long as the buttons are labelled.


By the way, I voted for 'something else' as I don't really have a strong preference for any of the suggestions - most of them are fine for me. I've expressed which ones I don't like in the second question.

 

[_wb_]

I suppose a solution could be to physically label the key(s) as "AltGr" but actually refer to them as something else internally in the software (e.g. Meta or Hyper).

I don't fully understand the logic here (as I've mostly been avoiding the keyboard threads), but I'm not comfortable with labelling a key as something and referring to it as something else in software - that introduces potentional for confusion between developers and users which I don't think needs much help (judging from the DraStic thread tonight). If we have an AltGr button it should be AltGr internally, and if that's a reason not to have it as a modifier then I guess I'll have to change my vote. FWIW I've no problem with AltGr not doing exactly the same as what it does on a big keyboard, as long as the buttons are labelled.


By the way, I voted for 'something else' as I don't really have a strong preference for any of the suggestions - most of them are fine for me. I've expressed which ones I don't like in the second question.

Labeling a key as something and referring to it as something else is something we do all of the time: e.g. on the Pandora, START is LALT, SELECT is LCTRL, L1 is RSHIFT, R1 is RCTRL, A is HOME, B is END, X is PGDN, Y is PGUP.

But I agree that it is better if the label can be made to match the internal name. With Meta that is possible, with AltGr it may be possible -- but could add confusion and problems because not everything expects there to be both a Right Alt and an AltGr. With Fn, Sym, Pyra and F-ing, it may also be possible to get those names in the places where it matters (shortcut configuration tools etc), but it is probably more work to introduce those new names than to use existing ones.

If this is an important criterion, then the best name would be "Hyper", since that is a standard modifier which is not used by anything. "Meta" and "AltGr" would be more or less OK, but there could be some confusion.

However, I don't think it should matter too much, because in most applications, the modifier should not be explicitly named. Applications will still know keys as "F1" and "<", not as Meta-1 and Meta-Z. For most applications, the fact that a modifier was needed to enter those keys should be completely transparent.

 

[thatgui]

 "Fn". Like on the Pandora. A bit confusing, since "Fn" has a connotation of being a hardware modifier.

Unless there is another option, this seems to be the best choice. Most of the other choices are already "overlayed" with similar functions on various other devices, especially "AltGr" as it serves a very specific purpose (on the keyboard layout I use). "Fn" however isn't that "fixed" on a special set of keys/functions as it can differ a lot between different devices. I also guess that most people don't care or even know, wether the function of "Fn" is realized in hardware of software.

In the end I deem the description not that important, as after a possible confusion in the beginning, most people will use the color as an indicator to draw a relation, not the text:

As long as the Fn key is the same color as symbols it triggers on the keyboard, it should be clear what it does, whatever its name.

 

[levi]

Alt and Ctrl is printed on the Start and Select keys on my keymat at least. I did forget whether the L bumper was L or R shift the other day though, so there are still dangers (if very minor ones).


It did take me a while to get used to having PgUp and PgDown on X and Y, but luckily outside of terminal emulators you can usually make do with the arrow keys to perform those actions (albeit a lot more slowly), so it doesn't affect many people that those functions are obtuse. I'm not sure we can say the same about many other buttons on the keyboard though.


The difference between physical keycaps (like the A key) and resolved characters (like 'A' and 'a') is longstanding. It does lead to problems using some home computer emulators which haven't mapped the keyboard controls very well (I recall one common BBC micro control scheme was to use dot ('.') and semicolon (';') as down and up, not usable gaming keys on the Pandora keyboard at least), but emulators can work around such problems even for games without configurable keys.


Looking at my own keyboard collection, my US keyboard has R Alt, but my UK keyboards all have AltGr for reasons that escape me at present. But it proves (to me at least) that those keys exist, so presumably in properly internationalised OSes there exist keycodes for all of them. Since there is a code for Hyper, it makes me wonder if there are codes for all the keys on a Lisp machine keyboard (http://world.std.com/~jdostale/kbd/SpaceCadet1.jpeg), including Meta. 'Greek', anyone? 'System'? 'Macro'? At least I don't see a 'Puzzle' key.

 

[_wb_]

Here is some information about XKB:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/X_KeyBoard_extension

I think it should be flexible enough to allow us to do what we want and call it however we want.

 

[Saber]

ED said previously the main modifier will be internally the Meta key, but the label on the keycap may be something different:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16736-testing-alternative-layouts-that-require-single-width-space-intl-layout-vs-big-space-and-other-key-layout-decisions/?p=349028

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Symbol shift like on some models of Spectrums.

 

[Grench]

Symbol shift like on some models of Spectrums.

No point of reference...  What does that even look like?

 

[Rockthesmurf]

Bottom left key http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OjApN0UaUj0/UwiNdDKs7lI/AAAAAAAAB6Q/2I_DnqgYbN4/s1600/ZX+Spectrum++2A.jpg

 

[Grench]

Bottom left key http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-OjApN0UaUj0/UwiNdDKs7lI/AAAAAAAAB6Q/2I_DnqgYbN4/s1600/ZX+Spectrum++2A.jpg

An odd concept.  Calling and labeling it what it is in plain albeit compressed English.  We could never do that.

 

[comradekingu]

klapse: No, my latest layout has A-Z fully clean. Feel free to ask questions about it here.

Tenka:  Yes, and what do we need a super for?  Is it too much of a stretch to ask the user to make super-hotkeys themselves?  (Everything but super+numbers is available)

 

[_wb_]

klapse: No, my latest layout has A-Z fully clean. Feel free to ask questions about it here.

Tenka:  Yes, and what do we need a super for?  Is it too much of a stretch to ask the user to make super-hotkeys themselves?  (Everything but super+numbers is available)

Is your AltGr Super? Or why is super+numbers not available?

 

[Grench]

Reflective of this poll's results I have updated my layout to use an Fn key instead of a Pyra key.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=354807

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6090052e0e062e289b1536c769f4588b

I've made some rather interesting changes to it lately and constructive feedback on how to make it better is welcome.

 

[klapse]

I like it better than the last one, thanks for considering my suggestion.

EDIT: I really like it Very different than what I had in mind but I can't think of any improvements atm.

 

[comradekingu]

klapse: No, my latest layout has A-Z fully clean. Feel free to ask questions about it here.

Tenka:  Yes, and what do we need a super for?  Is it too much of a stretch to ask the user to make super-hotkeys themselves?  (Everything but super+numbers is available)

Is your AltGr Super? Or why is super+numbers not available?

The AltGr is AltGr. There is no super. You can use F-ing as super on anything but numbers, because F-ing+numbers is already F-keys.

I think that is the better option to having F-keys on QWERTY because super+QWERTY is used for something (not in xfce though), and i dont know anything that uses super+numbers.

Also it keeps the letters all clean. And from the vote, F-keys on numbers was the popular opinion. Easy to understand when the numberrow is slightly shifted with respect to normal, and remembering letters for numbers isnt ideal to begin with.

 

[levi]

Reflective of this poll's results I have updated my layout to use an Fn key instead of a Pyra key.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=354807

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6090052e0e062e289b1536c769f4588b

I've made some rather interesting changes to it lately and constructive feedback on how to make it better is welcome.

I'm not keen on having the mouse buttons on shoulders, and would much prefer keyboard mods there.  With shoulder mods I'm pretty sure we don't need two ctrl keys on the keyboard.  If we have buttons for the mouse buttons (on top of the clicky nubs) they'd be better as face buttons I think (though I guess they'd have to go behind a modifier)

I'm also not convinced about the num pad layout of the numbers and F keys, and think I'd prefer two lines.  Also, some of those symbol keys look mighty crowded printed on tiny keys (not sure how much you can free up from elsewhere though).  And it's not clear to me how those modifier locks work - is it a double press thing or is it a double modifier (e.g. shift + ctrl)?

But if you make all those changes your design might end up looking too much like some of the others, and it's good to have different designs around.

 

[Grench]

Reflective of this poll's results I have updated my layout to use an Fn key instead of a Pyra key.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=354807

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6090052e0e062e289b1536c769f4588b

I've made some rather interesting changes to it lately and constructive feedback on how to make it better is welcome.

I'm not keen on having the mouse buttons on shoulders, and would much prefer keyboard mods there.  With shoulder mods I'm pretty sure we don't need two ctrl keys on the keyboard.  If we have buttons for the mouse buttons (on top of the clicky nubs) they'd be better as face buttons I think (though I guess they'd have to go behind a modifier)

I'm also not convinced about the num pad layout of the numbers and F keys, and think I'd prefer two lines.  Also, some of those symbol keys look mighty crowded printed on tiny keys (not sure how much you can free up from elsewhere though).  And it's not clear to me how those modifier locks work - is it a double press thing or is it a double modifier (e.g. shift + ctrl)?

But if you make all those changes your design might end up looking too much like some of the others, and it's good to have different designs around.

I don't want to derail this thread.  I have answered most of those questions in my keyboard thread.   You're welcome to take a look then ask there if you have additional questions.  Again - trying not to derail this thread with a long answer.  Thank you for the feedback though.

 

[_wb_]

At 37 submitted votes, there is no clear winner.

Fn gets the most "prefer" votes (15), and also a lot of "accept" votes (25).

Meta gets the most "accept" votes (27), and also a lot of "prefer" votes.

Sym gets few "prefer" votes (3), but good acceptability (19).

Pyra gets 6 "prefer" votes and 16 "acceptable" votes, so it's not bad, but more or less "meh".

AltGr and AltGr+F-ing don't get many votes; AltGr is somewhat acceptable (12 votes), but not many people prefer it.

So one of those first two, Fn and Meta, is probably the best choice. I think Meta is a better choice -- it sounds better and corresponds better to what the modifier does: not just "Function" keys (which is what? F-keys? Hardware toggles?), but an extra layer of keys, to be used for many things: missing symbols, F-keys, dead diacritics, international letters like Å Æ Ø or Ä Ö Ü or whatever your language needs, and even some actual "meta" things like "make a screenshot" (⎙) and "toggle keyboard backlight" (⌨). I think it's also good to make it clear that it is an actual modifier and not a hardware key, and that it's different from what we had on the Pandora in that way.

I adjusted my layout proposal to the name "Meta". That also means that I can use the Pyra logo (

) for the Super key (Windows logo key), which does make more sense after all. See here for my adjusted proposal: http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16868-the-big-pyra-keyboard-poll/page-8#entry355294/URL]

 

[comradekingu]

I think its more fruitful to see what options people activly dislike.  Take AltGr away from anyone who knows how to use a keyboard and they will get annoyed quickly.

While to most a redundant key, it is to some, crucially important.

 

[rygD]

I didn't vote because I don't know how to answer the first question.  There are a few things I prefer over the others, but it doesn't really matter to me what it is called/labeled.  You can label it "Dumb" and I will still use it.  I can vote if it will help, but I find all listed options acceptable.

As a side note, I want a backlit Pyra logo/key somewhere on the keyboard.