Keymat Layout - the Final Poll!

[SNESFAN]

Interesting to see Layout 7 so far ahead compared to others. I wonder why so many chose it.


It has some important keys that are hard to press like ? or / (too close to Meta).


And not-so-often used buttons like é and è are easily accessible.

I didn't actually vote for it, but thinking about it from the point of view of someone who needs non-English characters I'd imagine number 7 is the must robust while still matching very closely an English qwerty keyboard. It also doesn't look too busy, too messy, or too confusing with it's functions unlike some of the other options. It's probably the best in regards to the keyboard portion.

maybe some tweaking to the secondary function key locations depending on as you say which are more/less frequently used might be a good start in narrowing down the final layout.

I personally voted for the layouts that had a normal qwerty layout, had top line number and F1-10 and the multifuntion buttons on the top had one for 3g/wifi/bt

 

[Saber]

Sorry to bust your bubble, but Layout #7 is not mine.

I want a good layout for the community that actually works. I don't care about a rewardless quest for popularity(or to play games here with you), but I guess this whole production is not working out as you thought it would. The energy and effort should of been applied elsewhere though.

You still need to deal with the issue of ( and ) since you bent toward having one keyboard Shift, placing F12 on Enter, separating - and + not only by proximity but by key level(primary and Shift), Escape on high traffic key Tab, the abundance of filler symbols(€, °, £, ¬) no one needs since Compose is so easy now.

Many people who use Circumflex in their alphabets might like to know they matter. Especially since you have a lot of junk scattered about in your layout. You also haven't disclosed how one gets the Grave diacritic and not the Backtick, how to differentiate the two through modifiers.  

I asked you before if you wanted help privately but you turned it down. I don't do that just for anyone on the internet, but has all this turned out the way you wanted? I doubt it, but it isn't too late if we all now stop trying to one up one another. I get your astute and that a lot is riding on the Pyra for you professionally and I do want this to work out for you.

My opinion though is it's a mistake to ever ask for the whims of your customers to push toward a critical decision. The interface is as crucial as you can get.   

 

[TrashyMG]

Only if ESC was on the left...

 

[Urben]

I vote for #2

- it combines german letters like on actual german keyboards

- F11 and F12 are not on enter or something similar

- existence of PrintScreen

- Backspace + Delete is what I would prefer as secondary action buttons

Which are the not-dealbreaking downsides:

- GREEK and MATH are too much Id say

- I prefer Tab being on the second row

 

[ible]

My opinion though is it's a mistake to ever ask for the whims of your customers to push toward a critical decision. The interface is as crucial as you can get.   

I'm pretty sure ED is not letting us decide the layout with this poll.  He's taking our thoughts into consideration, which I think is really awesome.

 

[Xcl4m4t10n]

Sorry if I am going to say something senseless or if it was answer before but, will we have a way to remap de useless keys for the rest of the people? It seems that the layout 7 is the favorite but for me is totally useless the german symbols so it will be awesome if there's any chance to remap it internally instead of have these keys.

You can always remap anything to your likings.

Thanks for the answer.

 

[EvilDragon]

I asked you before if you wanted help privately but you turned it down. I don't do that just for anyone on the internet, but has all this turned out the way you wanted? I doubt it, but it isn't too late if we all now stop trying to one up one another. I get your astute and that a lot is riding on the Pyra for you professionally and I do want this to work out for you.

The problem is:

If you do everything in private, you might overlook something.

If you do everything public, you get an overwhelming response.

We HAD a discussion for the last 1,5 weeks where I've chosen a keyboard layout which I thought was okay, improved it based on experience and then opened it up for everyone to help me improve it, explicitely stating that every suggested change should be told and explained.

That worked for a few posts, then some people started to once again post various different keyboard layouts which didn't have any relationship to the one I posted, and instead of only suggesting changes, people made the changes themselves, thus resulting into various options of keyboard layouts.

The only thing I wanted back then was to slowly improve the keyboard step by step, nothing more. Not different variations once again.

Then some claimed they know that people WANT it to be like that, etc.b]

If we had just worked on it privately and released the result, we would've gotten hundreds of posts complaining they didn't have a chance to say anything.

So anything we do is wrong, whatever we do.

My opinion though is it's a mistake to ever ask for the whims of your customers to push toward a critical decision. The interface is as crucial as you can get.

It's no critical vote. I explicitely stated that the poll will HELP me decide on the keyboard layout, finding out what people prefer by taking a look at the favourite reasults.

It was never planned to be the final layout decision.

I'm perfectly fine to do a closed private discussion to finish the proper layout with the top 3 chosen layouts here (which should include yourself as well).

My opinion though is it's a mistake to ever ask for the whims of your customers to push toward a critical decision. The interface is as crucial as you can get.

 I'm pretty sure ED is not letting us decide the layout with this poll.  He's taking our thoughts into consideration, which I think is really awesome.

Exactly that.

 

[Saber]

Only if ESC was on the left...

In my 8.0 layout, that's were it is. Didn't want you to cringe anymore.

My opinion though is it's a mistake to ever ask for the whims of your customers to push toward a critical decision. The interface is as crucial as you can get.   

I'm pretty sure ED is not letting us decide the layout with this poll.  He's taking our thoughts into consideration, which I think is really awesome.

Let's kick the jubilation at belonging to "something big" to the curb and work on the layout, now, instead of drawing probably false conclusions from the poll results over the next couple of days. 

 

[fusion_power]

Oh, to many choices! I thought after so many threads there were a more advanced and condensed choice, hmm... No clue what to vote, they all look different. And so many Meta/Super/FN etc... thats alot of modifier Keys if you count in alt, shift, ctrl...  :wacko:  ...give me a minute...

 

[Saber]

I asked you before if you wanted help privately but you turned it down. I don't do that just for anyone on the internet, but has all this turned out the way you wanted? I doubt it, but it isn't too late if we all now stop trying to one up one another. I get your astute and that a lot is riding on the Pyra for you professionally and I do want this to work out for you.

The problem is:


If you do everything in private, you might overlook something.


If you do everything public, you get an overwhelming response.


We HAD a discussion for the last 1,5 weeks where I've chosen a keyboard layout which I thought was okay, improved it based on experience and then opened it up for everyone to help me improve it, explicitely stating that every suggested change should be told and explained.


That worked for a few posts, then some people started to once again post various different keyboard layouts which didn't have any relationship to the one I posted, and instead of only suggesting changes, people made the changes themselves, thus resulting into various options of keyboard layouts.


The only thing I wanted back then was to slowly improve the keyboard step by step, nothing more. Not different variations once again.


Then some claimed they know that people WANT it to be like that, etc.b]


If we had just worked on it privately and released the result, we would've gotten hundreds of posts complaining they didn't have a chance to say anything.


So anything we do is wrong, whatever we do.

Except you can know something is wrong without getting a majority opinion. Numbers under the Fn/Meta modifier for one was bad. You knew this without asking anyone same as you know now that / and ? nearer to Fn/Meta is also wrong to do. Sometimes you have to trust yourself and pass everything else through your own logic filter. I've been surprised myself for the reasons thrown back at me in my layout designs for why we can't do this or that and the level of nasty thrown back when I don't listen to them.

Sometimes you have to trust in yourself and your abilities, and sure it's the loneliest path to take when others you think would take your side don't, but you must always do what you think is right, because you can be right, too.

 

[Grench]

Interesting to see Layout 7 so far ahead compared to others. I wonder why so many chose it.

It has some important keys that are hard to press like ? or / (too close to Meta).

And not-so-often used buttons like é and è are easily accessible.

Could it be because it has a more logical key arrangement?

Non-English characters are given their own row so that they are 'out of the way' for the English crowd. The non-English characters é and è are easily accessible, but because they're in this non-English row, they're also easily ignored for the English speakers.

/? are currently on the right side because they're on the right side of a standard US keyboard. The symbols flow left to right top to bottom mimicking the order on a 'normal' keyboard. The symbol pairs are broken _wb_ style with the un-shifted -=[]\`/ on the lower row and the shifted versions _+{}|~? on the row above it.

Esc is where it feels natural for it to reside. Most of the other keyboards relegate it to a Fn+key somewhere embedded in the main keyboard area.

Having that bottom two rows of shifted and unshifted symbols is a theme. The exact placement of the pairs left to right could be adjusted within that theme without destroying the theme. So, if /? is seen needing to move to the left, those pairs can be scooted around left to right to refine it.

Other themes present on 7:

Esc is where it feels natural for it to reside. Most of the other keyboards relegate it to a Fn+key somewhere embedded in the main keyboard area.

Insert and Delete are with Home, End, PgUp, PgDn, just like on a 'normal' keyboard.

The right edge has Backspace, Enter, Shift, Fn/Meta in a neat column. It makes a nice aesthetic.

Fn+Shift are paired on the keyboard on one side and the shoulder buttons on the other. Should be chordable for people who want to use additional mappings.

Compose is on Space instead of Enter. I'm not 100% sure why this is an advantage, but in this tread above someone stated that they didn't like having compose on Enter. Maybe they will explain?

Important/named/non-symbol keys are given top-level prominent placement. Esc, Tab, Insert, Delete, Pgup, PgDn, Home, End, Backspace, Enter, Shift, Fn are all in logical placements that correspond relatively closely to where they would be on a 'normal' keyboard.

It's a collection of 'themes' or 'rules' that work well together to give a logical construction. Whether or not the end user consciously notices the themes & rules or not, they are still present to make it 'easier'. Anyway, that's why I like this one.

 

[Grench]

 

[EvilDragon]

I wish people would give more information about why they like the ones that they do - just a few qualitative color pieces to go with the stark quantitative nature of the poll results. Emphasis on what features/themes/placements people -like- about a given layout or layouts. Enough of the negative campaigning against the 'others' though.

That would be perfect to finalize the Layout in the end.

What I love about Layout 11 is the F11 key up there. It might be weird at first, but for X, it's basically a Fullscreen toggle key, which is a neat feature

Well, there are quite a few designs I like, I also voted for multiple ones, as some are really good

 

[Grench]

What a shame, only one layout have 3 essential spanish keys.

Sadly we are a minority here... And there are too few keys to include a full international layout anyway. We have to start thinking "Compose + ~ --> n" for ñ, for example, and pick one that allows these kind of combinations in the easiest possible way (same for French, nordic languages, etc.)

 Yeah, i know it, still sadpanda.

All of the layouts have some non-English support to varying degrees. Only layout 6 is explicitly polylingual. I.e. it is possible on #6 to correspond easily in a dozen languages simultaneously without any re-mapping. That is why it has explicit Castillano (Spanish) support via directly mapped Ñ, ¡ and ¿ and easy to access dead key diacritics for accents. However, as a consequence to this wide and easy language support, it also is one of the most complex in appearance and requires Fn+Shift+key actions to get that language support to work.
However, all of the proposals have some method of incorporating non-English support. All of them have compose. Many have a hidden diacritic capability (often on Fn+Shift+key) Most of them have a set of at least 4 keys that are mapped to German letters. For Spanish speakers, they can remap 3 of those to Ñ, ¡ and ¿ and use dead key diacritics for accentuated vowels. The larger assumption on these layouts is that most Pyra users will use English, some will be bi-lingual, but users are assumed to not need more than English+1 languages to be supported at any given time.

So - I don't see Castillano/Español/Spanish support as being directly prevented on any of these. If you speak a mixture of English, German, French and Spanish and other, though, the only one that gets to that level is probably #6.

I am thinking... Why not to make another poll after this one with the three more voted layouts in order to have a more especific final selection?

That or get people to state why they like what they like - and have 2-3 people who worked on those find a new/super layout that incorporates the themes/features/principles of the preferred layouts?

 

[comradekingu]

In my head there is only one explicitly english layout, and as far as the comparison to nr6 goes, that combines a lot better with language support.

Castilian spanish, castellano, is just a different branch of spanish. For both of them ¡ is at shift+altgr+1   and ¿ is at shift+altGr+the key to the right of 0

Only layout 8 and 9 have compose, the other have chorded compose.

The real question is as you say, what people like. Just combining things gets you something that isnt balanced, and could be the worst from all things.

I think however what works for the most people, should factor in photographers, audio-people, and regular users. It may be that to the pandora users, some level of clutter has to be tolerated to bring everyone into the same boat. Fn labels being one thing.

But its a lot easier path to go to, then having to rely on explanation, and undercommunicating things that are broken.

 

[Grench]

In my head there is only one explicitly english layout, and as far as the comparison to nr6 goes, that combines a lot better with language support.

Pretty much every comparison point you are claiming about #6 is simply wrong. Is all of that slander and negativity really needed in this exercise? We really don't need to confuse people further by stating falsehoods. Lashing out negatively directly against other layouts doesn't help this process.

Castilian spanish, castellano, is just a different branch of spanish. For both of them ¡ is at shift+altgr+1   and ¿ is at shift+altGr+the key to the right of 0

And AltGr mappings only work if you're willing to sacrifice the right Alt key to become AltGr. That can be a pretty steep price to pay.

Only layout 8 and 9 have compose, the other have chorded compose.

Yes, the other layouts require Fn+key to strike compose. However, they also include enough non-English character mappings to MINIMIZE the need for using compose in the first place. By eliminating 90% of the reasons to use compose, they can logically move compose to the Fn layer.

The real question is as you say, what people like. Just combining things gets you something that isnt balanced, and could be the worst from all things.

Worst of all things? It's refining a keyboard layout after finding out user thematic preferences not negotiating nuclear disarmament.

I think however what works for the most people, should factor in photographers, audio-people, and regular users. It may be that to the pandora users, some level of clutter has to be tolerated to bring everyone into the same boat. Fn labels being one thing.

Agreed. We simply do not have enough keys on the Pyra to make a truly multi-use-function keyboard without mapping a Fn layer.

But its a lot easier path to go to, then having to rely on explanation, and undercommunicating things that are broken.

You and I have different perspectives on what defines 'broken'. 4 Alt keys, 3 shift keys, unlabeled key functions, keys mapped to the Fn layer of modifier keys, standard sequences that are not possible due to mappings (Ctrl+Ins Shift+Ins Ctrl+Pause/Break Alt+PrtScr), requiring hardware changes to function, etc. - those types of things can be defined as 'broken'. Individual key placements can be refined, but if they're functional to start with, then they are not 'broken'. Maybe sub-optimal placement would be a better definition for things like "this key is too close to Fn". Those 'sub-optimal' pieces can be refined in this process.

 

[comradekingu]

Why is the comparison wrong, I stated an argument, please return the favour.

You can have two altKeys and still have plenty ways to produce AltGr mappings.

The other layouts also dont have dedicated +3 buttons, removing 100% of the basis of how to type these languages in a much better way than Fn-typing.

You can be worse both at implementing compose and typing, but its just worse for all purposes.

Refining away something that is broken, like accidental keypresses resulting from Fn on shoulders, or explaining away the inability to use Fn with gamingkeys or dpad, doesnt work.

Whenever you use the Fn layer for hacks, you remove expected functionality, and almost a whole layer of remappable keys, meaning a whole layer comparitivly against the reduced ShoulderFn map. 42 vs 39.

If you combine 3 maps into 1 you get less, whether you measure it in standards, the amount of symbols you can enter, or the amount of free stuff you have to do what you want with, and also the ability to AZERTY.

I labeled the Fn stuff, and i have never put any of it on modifiers. There are only 2 shiftkeys on my layout, and two Alt keys.

Ctrl+Ins and Shift+Ins is possible,  Ctrl+Pause/Break isnt, is that important?  I dont see why Fn+p,   and shift+Fn+p (to make it more standard) is worse than Alt+PrtScr (which i havent seen)

I said typing doesnt work because it doesnt (work as well as english), if you want to define something as broken you have to let us in on what stops working.

 

[ZXDunny]

I cannot believe that anyone thinks that labelling the shift keys such that they inhabit the wrong side of the keyboard is at all sane. This is gonna get the piss ripped out of it when it comes to reviews.

D.

 

[Grench]

Why is it wrong, i stated an argument, please return the favour.

You can have two altKeys and still have plenty ways to produce AltGr mappings.

Actually, as has been explained to you many many times before, there are ONLY two maps for Alt. Left Alt and Right Alt. When AltGr is activated, Right Alt BECOMES AltGr. There isn't BOTH. There are two, and will only ever be two, Alt keys. You cannot proclaim that there are 4 (Two Alt and two AltGr). They simply do not exist that way.

2 dedicated keys, one too little to be usable for anyone

Thanks, but I and others can find lots of uses for this keyboard. You have not defined what 'too little to be usable' by YOU is, but simply stated a broad attack with a claim of utter unusability.

swappable dedicated keys, having to Fn+L to do so, or learn where brackets go if you need them

(non-dedicated ä confused with backspace )

I'm sorry, but I fail to see what Fn+L has to do with anything here. No learning, 'where brackets go'. They're explicitly mapped on the bottom row. The non-dediated Ü, being on the Fn layer may take some getting used to, but it is clearly marked and functional. I'm not sure why you're going on about ä though.

No language layer, 3 named letters

The entire keyboard is a polylingual layout. It is not necessary to change definitions for one language or another. There are actually 38 named letters on the keyboard and direct diacritic support for dozens more.

Fn confused with AltGr

Not confused with AltGr a bit. It simply negates the need to activate AltGr (and loose the right Alt key) for the entire language sets of Western Europe. AltGr CAN still be activated IFF the end user chooses to do so. In the vast majority of cases, though, it should not be necessary.

5 available keys with Fn, out of total of 47 possible

Please list the key symbols that you think cannot be made using this layout. Or did you mean that there are only 5 that do not have something already mapped to Fn? You're a bit vague on this one. Anyway, you're making a statement as a 'negative' without explaining WHY it's a negative. There is nothing wrong with utilizing the Fn layer. As you have noted, it is not possible to do a proper keyboard on the Pyra without using the Fn layer.

non-dedicated compose

By having dedicated language keys on the top and Fn layers, the actual need for someone to use Compose is negated in nearly all 'normal' usages. It's still present for those odd cases when it's needed. Quite frankly, though, on this layout and most of the others here, compose won't be needed often as they have more solid polylingual support 'out of the box'.

5 US diactrics that are marked

Look again. There are 10 marked diacritics on the Fn and Fn+Shift layers of these keys: ,< .> /? '" `~They are marked win an unobstructive dotted circle in the alternate (orange) color. Easy to find, easy to use, properly marked for convenience.

Azerty (and others) not possible

I'm struggling to find relevance to that. It's a QWERTY keyboard with added polylingual support. The only way yours or any layout can become 'AZERTY' is by cutting up keys and moving them OR re-mapping and remembering. Either are as possible with this as with any other.

Dvorak and NEO not possible

Again, how is this remotely relevant? A proper Dvorak Simplified layout requires 14 keys on each of the top 2 rows. We have 11 and 12.
You and Saber seem to be lashing out in this process. It isn't helping, it isn't getting us closer to something for everyone.

I'm trying to answer questions where possible on the subjects I'm familiar with. There is no necessity for you to attack someone else's layouts to answer questions about or, "defend your own."

This isn't us Vs them. This is us trying to find what works best for most and inconveniences the least while realizing that no one solution is going to be golden/perfect for every single person's every single need.

 

[Grench]

I cannot believe that anyone thinks that labelling the shift keys such that they inhabit the wrong side of the keyboard is at all sane. This is gonna get the piss ripped out of it when it comes to reviews.

D.

What you are seeing is the logical mapping. I.e. how things function UNDER the skin.

What will be PRINTED on the keys is the simplified 'Shift', not 'LeftShift'.

There is a bit of disagreement on how the left/right split should be done. On the Pandora, Right Shift and Right Ctrl were on the shoulder buttons. Because of this, some want the shoulder buttons to all be ther 'Right' version of their related keys. So, shoulders 'right' and main keyboard area modifiers are all 'left'. That convention could work.

The alternative is 'mixed' where the left shoulder is left shift and left Fn and the lower right keyboard area's shift & Fn are 'right'.

Either can be correct - neither convention has to be explicitly labeled on the final product's keyboard map.