It's the keyboard layout.
- Thread starter Silent-Hunter
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comradekingu
Glowing ember
I think something is wrong if it cant be explained without the use of colours.
comradekingu
Glowing ember
Oh yes, that's much better. Use the most space available. With the translucent ring around the key, maybe the true real-estate lies somewhere in between.
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Grench
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So far all I've concentrated on is symbol and key placement while trying to keep the aesthetics as non-awful as possible. (mapping)
I haven't gotten into font selection, symbol within key fine-sizing, etc. That level of fine tuning should be done - but after we figure out what we're applying the tuning to.
So, I take it you like the layout?
I'm pressed on time these days - traveling. I'm not going to be able to put this in the matrix, but I give permission to anyone who does have the time to add this into the keyboard matrix to do so. Call it INC? (International No Compromise) - also to imply that it's something that came from a broad set of community ideas. After all, there is a lot of Grench, _wb_, Comeradekingu, Wizard Stan and other's ideas all rolled into this. It feels wrong to label it as 'Grench International'. That sounds like an airport and abbreviates very badly.. rambling now.
INC keyboard design:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dce234b8e47d9a029c4467ca140b4b7c
For it to get justice, though, people will need to re-think their monstrous weights to 'numbers on top layer'. Although they should fix that anyway as it effectively makes that one score a beach and other scores all grains of sand.
codifies
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...well I don't dislike it....
ible
professional vim user
Oh no! You moved one of the least important keys (`~) closer to the thumb from my version. Sad day! Interesting, though, to put backspace on space; it is a very important key to need, so it might be nice to have a big target
. Still a dedicated backspace might be a requirement for some peoples...As for justice, I might be inclined to adjust some of my weights (to make sure they adequately reflect which keyboards I like) if you throw in some of these current versions...
[edit]
random thought -- the european keys on the right side should have some nice English defaults:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9d2b85b4d8c1d471b83506c3e744deb7
Though I'm not sure how to show this nicely.
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Grench
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There are two versions of this keyboard floating around. One with Insert on Fn+Space and one with backspace on Fn+space.Oh no! You moved one of the least important keys (`~) closer to the thumb from my version. Sad day! Interesting, though, to put backspace on space; it is a very important key to need, so it might be nice to have a big target
As for justice, I might be inclined to adjust some of my weights (to make sure they adequately reflect which keyboards I like) if you throw in some of these current versions...
[edit]
random thought -- the european keys on the right side should have some nice English defaults:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9d2b85b4d8c1d471b83506c3e744deb7
Though I'm not sure how to show this nicely.
The main one in consideration has a _wb_ modification to put del and backspace on the game pad area and places insert at Fn+space. I feel this is acceptable. The keyboard that was linked in my message quoted by you DOES have a dedicated backspace and insert is at Fn+space.
Now the modified version that you created and provided a fresh link to - that one has two backspaces in it. It attempts to 'cover up' and mask the 'foreign stuff'.
Here's a question I posit to you on that. Why would we need to cover up the German alphabet on this international device that is designed and built in Germany? English is NOT compromised at all by the presence of the German letters. There is still a dedicated backspace, dedicated tab, all common top level symbol keys are on the top level. It makes no compromise to English or German. French and many others are very well supported as well. I don't think it should be necessary to apologize or hide that fact.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dce234b8e47d9a029c4467ca140b4b7c
Grench
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Updated version:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Removed the Greek & Math crap key.
Re-added the additional German and Spanish keys that _wb_ had removed. I just noticed that he'd stripped those out - not sure why.
Fixed the silly formatting overkill that had crept in.
I decided that I do like the idea of Delete and Backspace on the game pad and Insert on Fn+space because Insert is the less used key.
I also added this one to the matrix - replaced the previous 'new' version actually, though it doesn't score well for those of you who crazy weighted 'Numbers on top layer'. It scores very well for everything but numbers and 'clutter'.
No apologies or concessions for German use while not infringing on English use. It is a 29 letter keyboard.
P+, L+2 and M+3 are all preserved with P+1 and L+2 mapped as German+.
Contiguous F1-F12.
F1-F12 and numbers all available on the lockable Fn layer together for gaming - which is a prime usage case for this device. Should be fantastic in FPS and (M)MORPG games.
Enjoy!
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Removed the Greek & Math crap key.
Re-added the additional German and Spanish keys that _wb_ had removed. I just noticed that he'd stripped those out - not sure why.
Fixed the silly formatting overkill that had crept in.
I decided that I do like the idea of Delete and Backspace on the game pad and Insert on Fn+space because Insert is the less used key.
I also added this one to the matrix - replaced the previous 'new' version actually, though it doesn't score well for those of you who crazy weighted 'Numbers on top layer'. It scores very well for everything but numbers and 'clutter'.
No apologies or concessions for German use while not infringing on English use. It is a 29 letter keyboard.
P+, L+2 and M+3 are all preserved with P+1 and L+2 mapped as German+.
Contiguous F1-F12.
F1-F12 and numbers all available on the lockable Fn layer together for gaming - which is a prime usage case for this device. Should be fantastic in FPS and (M)MORPG games.
Enjoy!
comradekingu
Glowing ember
We would need to not have german letters on the default keymat, because even though the german market is big, the english market is bigger.
English users are laregely monolingual, even bilingual and multi-lingual users dont want to see non A-Z letters, unless its a specific keymat they ordered to have it work in their main language.
The detriment to english users, is they expect other keys to be in this place.
The solution is not to have symbols often used in english, but rather things you can swap out easily.
Check out librem 13
Belgian canadian danish dutch english finnish french german italian norwegian are the main and probable things that can be had in this way.
English users are laregely monolingual, even bilingual and multi-lingual users dont want to see non A-Z letters, unless its a specific keymat they ordered to have it work in their main language.
The detriment to english users, is they expect other keys to be in this place.
The solution is not to have symbols often used in english, but rather things you can swap out easily.
Check out librem 13
Belgian canadian danish dutch english finnish french german italian norwegian are the main and probable things that can be had in this way.
ible
professional vim user
what ck said. i'd prefer not to have three dedicated, premium-location keys on the keyboard which I wouldn't use at all. of course they can be remapped, but i think it'd be nice to have a sensible english mapping for them from the start.
oops, sorry about commenting on the wrong layout. i like how the hardware key gets "masked" when putting into the Fn-locked mode. (so you wouldn't accidentally pull up the hardware menu when gaming.) but yeah, it starts to look cluttered IMO when you have 3 labels on stuff below the top row.
while i have an initial aversion to delete and backspace on the +/- game keys, I think I could get used to it.
[edit]
I think this looks a bit nicer than my old one, in terms of how the english maps get placed on, but YMMV:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6664aa09ec457798ce4266d0634fb53a
oops, sorry about commenting on the wrong layout. i like how the hardware key gets "masked" when putting into the Fn-locked mode. (so you wouldn't accidentally pull up the hardware menu when gaming.) but yeah, it starts to look cluttered IMO when you have 3 labels on stuff below the top row.
while i have an initial aversion to delete and backspace on the +/- game keys, I think I could get used to it.
[edit]
I think this looks a bit nicer than my old one, in terms of how the english maps get placed on, but YMMV:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6664aa09ec457798ce4266d0634fb53a
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Caine
Hardcore Member
I don't really care about non-english characters. Catering to non-English use is great, but sacrificing three buttons (P+1, L+1, L+2) for it goes way to far for me.
ZXDunny
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Looks like ED will be finalising[1] the keyboard layout VERY SOON! Can we get this thread to 100 pages of pointless indecisive waffle in time? Get cracking folks!
[1] By which I mean "ignoring the keyboard threads and doing what he wants to do anyway", which is right and proper.
D.
[1] By which I mean "ignoring the keyboard threads and doing what he wants to do anyway", which is right and proper.
D.
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codifies
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I fully expected it to reach at least 100 pages before now - frankly I'm disappointed with the lot of you!
For ED's sake I hope he just skims the actual layouts and ignores the rest...
ZXDunny
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Grench
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Lots of panic, no substance.
There IS no sacrifice to make it happen. THAT is the beauty of this. ALL of the standard keys for English use ARE mapped in very usable and logical fashion.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Pain and sacrifice to get those 3 keys? Please detail what that pain is or what was sacrificed. It's ALL there.
The real issue that this is going to run into is that there are people who see something (anything) unfamiliar and immediately panic, run in circles and scream about how painful it is to "give up" 3 keys. BUT - they aren't actually giving anything up. IT IS ALL THERE.
Now consider gaming use. Those 3 keys are IDEAL for mapping in-game macros to. They're right there where they're easy to get to off of the right thumb gaming area. It turns our 6 button game pad into effectively 9.
So, please detail exactly WHAT was sacrificed or HOW it is causing you pain to allow the people who created the device (German), use it in their native language efficiently?
English is NOT compromised. In this case, neither is German.
ZXDunny
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Dear god no. Weren't we supposed to be getting a nice row of number keys?
That layout's shite, mate.
D.
Grench
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With the numbers on the Fn layer, you may see a flaw at first glance, but it's actually a beneficial and real feature.
Numbers are not only there, but they're non-duplicated and on the same Fn layer as the F1-F12 buttons - which is a HUGE bonus for FPS and (M)MORPG gaming. On this layout, if you press both the shoulder and keyboard Fn buttons together, it flips the keyboard area into Fn-lock mode. This means you instantly have a full number row and a full F1-F12 row on top and quick to access during game play. Switching back and forth is easy.
Numbers are there, present and accounted for. Putting them on the Fn layer means that there are plenty of keys for the symbol keys and even 3 for uncompromised German to be present on the same keyboard.
It's possible. It's highly efficient for gaming. It is MORE efficient for typing in English than 'numbers on top of top row' layouts because it has 'symbols on top of bottom row'. German is present without compromising English or having to apologize for the German letters getting 2nd class treatment.
This is easy to use, more efficient, more capable and -better- than having, 'numbers on top of top row'.
ZXDunny
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Nope. Numbers need to be unshifted. Can't type line numbers as a stream-of-consciousness type thing when coding if you have to keep banging the function key before you type each line of code.
Honestly, I can't see why we don't just use the same layout as the original Pandora. We all know that one by now.
D.
Honestly, I can't see why we don't just use the same layout as the original Pandora. We all know that one by now.
D.
