It's the keyboard layout.

[comradekingu]

If your option is letters behind something, then numbers behind something is preferable. As always, nice progression.

 

[_jr_]

Having QWERTY on the top row would work slightly better if the rows were 12/11/12/11 instead of 11/12/11/12, I think.

 

[WizardStan]

At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's annoying to have numbers behind meta but it's also annoying to have punctuation and letters behind meta. It's not like Grench/_wb_ did that for kicks, it's a very legitimate tradeoff. It moves the numbers behind meta, but it brings a lot out at the same time. There's going to be compromises, this is a compromise that values punctuation and that P+1 L+2 bringing a lot of international support. It has a lot of practicality: I don't know if it would actually be good, I don't have to suffer the compose key on the Pandora to know what kind of hinderence this solves, but I do recognize a valid solution to a described problem and therefore a step forward. A step forward along a different path is still progress. If that path leads to a dead end then at least we can say it was tried. If the path dead ends and people keep pushing for it anyway then it's going to hinder progress but that's not the case yet.So embrace the quirky! A lot of very good ideas have been realized because someone did something seemingly counterintuitive.

Personally I don't like it, the P+1 L+2 looks like a waste to my bland English brain. On the other hand, that's three keys on the opposite of shift+meta ripe for remapping so maybe it is good. hmm

 

[Grench]

Here is a "_wb_ approved" version of the above Grench proposal and comments from _jr_:

And a "Grench approved" version of the "_wb_ approved" version of the Grench proposal - and they've gone plaid.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

Discussion and reasons for the above changes:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=386724

Maybe we're onto something? That or we're on something - I haven't decided which on this line of exploration.

 

[Grench]

At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's annoying to have numbers behind meta but it's also annoying to have punctuation and letters behind meta. It's not like Grench/_wb_ did that for kicks, it's a very legitimate tradeoff. It moves the numbers behind meta, but it brings a lot out at the same time. There's going to be compromises, this is a compromise that values punctuation and that P+1 L+2 bringing a lot of international support. It has a lot of practicality: I don't know if it would actually be good, I don't have to suffer the compose key on the Pandora to know what kind of hinderence this solves, but I do recognize a valid solution to a described problem and therefore a step forward. A step forward along a different path is still progress. If that path leads to a dead end then at least we can say it was tried. If the path dead ends and people keep pushing for it anyway then it's going to hinder progress but that's not the case yet.So embrace the quirky! A lot of very good ideas have been realized because someone did something seemingly counterintuitive.

Personally I don't like it, the P+1 L+2 looks like a waste to my bland English brain. On the other hand, that's three keys on the opposite of shift+meta ripe for remapping so maybe it is good. hmm

Thank you everyone for giving this slightly off-the-wall idea a good shake. I had thought that the way everyone was showing hate and disdain in the keyboard matrix, that this type of "Numbers on Fn layer" design was dead on arrival. I think it adds a lot of value -beyond- the international P+1 and L+2 and M+3 pieces though.

This layout should be AWESOME for games. Why? The ability to FnLock the numbers AND F1-F12 keys to the top at the same time and easily flip between those and alphabet by turning FnLock on/off. It's like having a true page-switching keyboard or two keyboards - one a dedicated gaming keyboard.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

When I try to 'mentally use it', it comes out very favorably. The 'foreign stuff' looks like hot-key and macro mapping heaven to me.

The main drawback is going to be US ethnocentrism. Convincing people that they can ignore the foreign stuff might be an uphill battle. Yes, I'm in the US. But then, I acknowledge that I'm looking at an international multilingual device built in Germany for use in the greater part of the free world. To steal a quote, "We're all in this together."

Thanks for giving it a good think-through.

 

[Neelix]

Maybe we're onto something? That or we're on something - I haven't decided which on this line of exploration.

I suspect it's the latter, which begs the question... What is it, and where can I get some?

-Neelix

 

[alanjf]

WizardStan, on 06 Jun 2015 - 1:35 PM, said:

alanjf, on 06 Jun 2015 - 10:10 AM, said:


At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's annoying to have numbers behind meta but it's also annoying to have punctuation and letters behind meta. It's not like Grench/_wb_ did that for kicks, it's a very legitimate tradeoff. It moves the numbers behind meta, but it brings a lot out at the same time. There's going to be compromises, this is a compromise that values punctuation and that P+1 L+2 bringing a lot of international support. It has a lot of practicality: I don't know if it would actually be good, I don't have to suffer the compose key on the Pandora to know what kind of hinderence this solves, but I do recognize a valid solution to a described problem and therefore a step forward. A step forward along a different path is still progress. If that path leads to a dead end then at least we can say it was tried. If the path dead ends and people keep pushing for it anyway then it's going to hinder progress but that's not the case yet.


So embrace the quirky! A lot of very good ideas have been realized because someone did something seemingly counterintuitive.


Personally I don't like it, the P+1 L+2 looks like a waste to my bland English brain. On the other hand, that's three keys on the opposite of shift+meta ripe for remapping so maybe it is good. hmm

Well, my problem with that is, many non-english keyboards have numbers readily accessible and have many punctuations behind AltGr. If it's not really a problem there, why would it be one here?

And please don't get me wrong, I know we are dealing with a compact keyboard, and I know we are trying to improve the Pandora keyboard as much as possible. I just don't think the usefulness of a dedicated number row should be over-looked, especially when the goal of the Pyra has many times been stated to be as laptop like as possible. I really feel the keyboard should reflect that and not simply become an overgrown smartphone/blackberry keyboard.

 

[WizardStan]

If it's not really a problem there, why would it be one here?

Bad argument man. Just because something has been one way doesn't mean there isn't a better way.Maybe not in general, but when considering our unique position existing keyboards can only be used as a guide. Follow known standards as much as possible but something needs to give.

I just don't think the usefulness of a dedicated number row should be over-looked

It hasn't been: it was one idea, a branch, that Grench and _wb_ presented. It's not like everyhting that happened before was lost and we're now committed to Fn-row numbers.The argument in favour of them is actually pretty good. I'm thinking about it: typically, with few exceptions, when I want numbers I want several at once, but for the most part I don't use them. I use colon and semicolon and various brackets far more often than digits, and that includes programming. I can see the benefit of bringing out the brackets at the expense of pushing back the numbers.

 

[Grench]

In the other thread _wb_ suggested putting Insert on the space bar and Delete/Backspace as the 2 additional game buttons. I find this acceptable either way.

Backspace as anti-space as Fn+Space:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

Backspace and Delete paired on game pad buttons. Insert at Fn+space:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bfec556713da8f4c009f978f7c06c44e

In general this isn't causing a firestorm of criticism. Either Insert or Backspace would have to ride on Fn+space. If we can live with that concept, we gain a lot in the trade off.

+ F1-F12 is contiguous

+ F1-F12 and numbers can be 'locked forward' so that they're the 'top keys' during game play if desired.

+ PgUp, PgDn, Home, End (page navigation set) are maintained.

+ German use is without compromise. All letter keys are where letter keys should be.

+/- Backspace, Delete, Insert... Two of these are on the 2 additional game pad buttons. One is on Fn+space.

Frankly, I've grown to like this layout. It seems to satisfy every stated need with the exception of people who reflexively panic with the 'numbers on Fn layer'. What am I missing?

We can refine it a bit of course, but in general principle, is this something that we can move forward with?

 

[ible]

I think I like your version more than _wb_'s (in this Grench-class of keyboards).

What the heck is ≡?

I might move a few things around (moving `~ over to a less important position):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0713affc99b9664eb98cd749cd23280c

 

[Eight Bit]

I edited my phone number block keyboard layout. It's optimized for 2x single thumb use.

The more I look at this and think about it, the more I like it. I truly hope people won't disregard it too quick and will give this layout serious consideration. Maybe think of something you would want to type, be it an ip address, a phone number, a sentence in English, German or french, some lines in assembly or an URL like http://www.openpandora.org

Sure, it breaks dosbox or whatever standard but to be honest, The Pyra keyboard will never be any standard but it's own anyway. It better be useful and easy to use.

I think for writing regular text or internet stuff this is a great easy to learn layout and also for gaming I think this is a great setup. In my opinion it's pretty clear and not much time is needed to find the key you are looking for as just about everything is divided in zones.

There's a lot of keys next to each other that are often used together. I really dig the Alt-Tab mash personally.

All numbers and F-keys are easily accessible on the meta layer and can be typed with a single thumb when the other is holding the Meta key. If there's small ridges on the S and J key like on a normal sized keyboard, a phone number (for instance) could easily be typed blind too. With a Meta-Lock function it could easily convert the pyra in a calculator.

Unfortunately there's no room for many language specific letters but with the available diacritics most commonly used western letters can be typed. I did put ß on it, about where it's expected to be because well.... It's a German device after all

Here's the link to the improved version.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9e9a17c0f9e52ee4e371cfcc174452f6

I asked my wife (who is an editor for the magazine of a well know international organization, so she writes for a living) what she thought about it, and she does like the keyboard layout and can see the benefits but no matter how hard I try to convince her, she still prefers this one:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/311248fd9de7ea818ae2e04845dda0ad

I also showed her the keyboard in Ible's last post, she didn't like that at all. (Sorry)

Mind, she's not geeky or nerdy. She's just a user of keyboards without any prejudice at all but hey, I like the Phone number block layout myself so I'm putting it out there anyway trying to convince you of how good my idea is.

 

[Grench]

I think I like your version more than _wb_'s (in this Grench-class of keyboards).

What the heck is ≡?

I might move a few things around (moving `~ over to a less important position):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/0713affc99b9664eb98cd749cd23280c

≡ is the pre-programmed shortcut to the Pyra's hardware menu. I.e. it pulls up a menu/overlay that allows you to turn radios and USB and HDMI on/off, etc...

So you prefer to have backspace as anti-space as Fn+space over Insert at Fn+space? Cool.

The finer points of mapping the exact keys to positions on that lower row can be argued out a bit, but the main idea of a no-compromises German compatible P+1 and L+2 by putting the numbers on the Fn layer - are you good with that? It's a trade-off, but it gives some pretty cool benefits IMHO.

 

[comradekingu]

Having "extra" keys, is the only meaningful way to improve on only being able to type English. At some point you are saying the pandora default is good enough, and anyone who considers it to be ineffective aren't important enough to sell pyras to. Thats not meeting the needs of the wider audience when the shortcoming is at that basic level.

Typewriter-functionality is compromise, and not something specific to Germans. In return for having more keys, more languages can be typed in the way languages are typed.

So those people are important, similarly having numbers and the basic things is important, at what point does having F-keys available on unmarked shoulders become crucial? To me its after the bus has run over a lot of people. Lets not fail to take into consideration what those users are saying now.

"For other reasons" is why those people even bought pandoras, but that doesnt cut it as far as why the keyboard is lacking, not with more keys anyway. It is possible to have both numbers and (29-30) letters.

 

[TrashyMG]

Ugg.

 

[_jr_]

Just a stupid thought: what about making the double width key the Fn-whatever modifier. Giving 5 easy combos.

 

[ible]

I asked my wife (who is an editor for the magazine of a well know international organization, so she writes for a living) what she thought about it, and she does like the keyboard layout and can see the benefits but no matter how hard I try to convince her, she still prefers this one:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/311248fd9de7ea818ae2e04845dda0ad

I also showed her the keyboard in Ible's last post, she didn't like that at all. (Sorry)

Mind, she's not geeky or nerdy. She's just a user of keyboards without any prejudice at all but hey, I like the Phone number block layout myself so I'm putting it out there anyway trying to convince you of how good my idea is.

No offense taken.  I still prefer non-Grench over Grench-style proposals.

I think I may prefer this of my own layouts:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/81113d4bd6bfadaa66dd9e913025ed7c

 

[Grench]

Having "extra" keys, is the only meaningful way to improve on only being able to type English. At some point you are saying the pandora default is good enough, and anyone who considers it to be ineffective aren't important enough to sell pyras to. Thats not meeting the needs of the wider audience when the shortcoming is at that basic level.

Typewriter-functionality is compromise, and not something specific to Germans. In return for having more keys, more languages can be typed in the way languages are typed.

So those people are important, similarly having numbers and the basic things is important, at what point does having F-keys available on unmarked shoulders become crucial? To me its after the bus has run over a lot of people. Lets not fail to take into consideration what those users are saying now.

"For other reasons" is why those people even bought pandoras, but that doesnt cut it as far as why the keyboard is lacking, not with more keys anyway. It is possible to have both numbers and (29-30) letters.

You're very hard to understand sometimes. Do you like or not like these? It is very hard to tell from your message if you're happy to get P+1 and L+2 and full functionality or if you're lamenting having numbers and F1-F12 on the Fn layer. They were designed specifically to meet the needs that you have expressed while still maintaining full functionality for English, programming and gaming. Was the attempt successful? I.e. do you like it or should we scrap it and move on?

Backspace at Fn+space:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

Insert at Fn+space:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bfec556713da8f4c009f978f7c06c44e

I asked my wife (who is an editor for the magazine of a well know international organization, so she writes for a living) what she thought about it, and she does like the keyboard layout and can see the benefits but no matter how hard I try to convince her, she still prefers this one:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/311248fd9de7ea818ae2e04845dda0ad

I also showed her the keyboard in Ible's last post, she didn't like that at all. (Sorry)

Mind, she's not geeky or nerdy. She's just a user of keyboards without any prejudice at all but hey, I like the Phone number block layout myself so I'm putting it out there anyway trying to convince you of how good my idea is.

 No offense taken.  I still prefer non-Grench over Grench-style proposals.

I think I may prefer this of my own layouts:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/81113d4bd6bfadaa66dd9e913025ed7c

I have made a dozen or more layouts - most based on derivations of other's, but several unique unto themselves. It seems a bit slighted to brand it as an on/off binary Grench Vs non-Grench. There are, after all, many of us creating many ideas.

That said, anything that fails to maintain the symbol pairs for greatest compatibility is, IMHO, a great waste of what we've learned in this process.

 

[Grench]

Just a stupid thought: what about making the double width key the Fn-whatever modifier. Giving 5 easy combos.

I had considered that. It winds up being functional, but a visual cluster-F.


It's really too bad that ED went forward with keyboard molds without considering centered or single width space options.


As it is, we're stuck with a double wide trailer space on the bottom right. Because we're all used to having every keyboard ever made having a wide space bar - it can't be anything but a space bar or it simply feels wrong. That key pretty much has to be space.

 

[comradekingu]

So 'ive spent a great many months trying to make that accomodation for international users. To sell the most units.

I think the layout above forgets about novices, and is far into pushing the bar on what you can expect even advanced users to grasp/have an interest in. A detriment of sorts.

Worse yet, its not a conclusive answer for anyone, its a compromise of equal loss.

Since you use a doublewide space, you end up having to dual-issue it for backspace. When the dualwide really is two buttons, not stabilized, not centered, it just puzzles me why they have to be conjoined. It is the elephant in the room.

On a sidenote I also cant seem to get around changing the convention of numbers, it looks contorted.

ED and other people not having designed layouts, dont seem to think the issues doublewide brings along matters, but it does. Otherwise, make it a type english-only layout, that novices can understand. They are the biggest group, and I feel anything else is selling half a loaf, and half a hamster, to two groups of people that are either allergic to loaf, or to hamsters. Getting a good deal on trying to do both halfway is mutually exclusive to all.

I have of course, very little personal interest in a compromised solution for either party, because im not a english-only user. What i want is a compromise, something that suits both. But of course, english users first.

Luckily, ED said he would read this which explains the matter in reasonable detail.

Edit: To explain the issue http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a07870688bf948b69fc49716772acc1d is what happens if you want my opinion on how far it goes.

Yes you don't have to shouldershift if you move +3 in (as in the +1 +2 for germans) (and there is no +4), but its no longer smooth sailing for english users. In fact, its worse for everyone, because this isn't efficient.

 

[Grench]

I made a slight tweak to the symbol row of the Insert at Fn+space version to see if I can make it a bit more efficient.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dce234b8e47d9a029c4467ca140b4b7c

• The _ (underscore) can now be hit quickly with the left thumb tip rolling shift+-.
• All of the diacritics (designated  by orange dotted circle ◌) are now grouped together on the right side.
• Symbol key order from the rows they originated form has been maintained.
• `~ is the 'most displaced key' which should be OK since I envision it getting more mileage as a diacritic than general use, though ~ itself IS very useful in Linux and should be easier to hit on the right than it was on the left (needs a shift mod).
• DosBox compliant out of the box.
• Should work for nearly every language in the Western world.
• German usage without compromise (keys are where Germans should be used to them) with exception of the YZ switch which would have been an issue for English.
• Gaming use is optimized.  F1-F12 and Numbers 1-0 can both be 'locked' forward (Fn _lock_) to allow skill/weapon selection on the numbers and communications on the F1-F12 keys (for example).  Should be awesome for FPS and (M)MORPG games.

I think this is highly viable - all of the requirements are present.  It should be easy to use.

Drawbacks and how to minimize them:

• Numbers on the Fn layer bothers some people more than it probably should.  Symbols are more important for most uses and numbers can be 'locked forward' by pressing both shoulder and keyboard Fn keys at the same time (for longer number strings)
• German symbols being up front and center may cause irrational anxiety to some English-only users.  Emphasize that they don't have to use the buttons that they don't want to - i.e. just because there is a German letter on the keyboard does NOT mean they have to know or learn German in order to use the device.  Emphasize that this is a device that 'brings the world together'.

I think it should work well.