codifies
Very Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 360
...well I don't dislike it....
It's the keyboard layout.
- Thread starter Silent-Hunter
- Start date
ible
professional vim user
Oh no! You moved one of the least important keys (`~) closer to the thumb from my version. Sad day! Interesting, though, to put backspace on space; it is a very important key to need, so it might be nice to have a big target
. Still a dedicated backspace might be a requirement for some peoples...As for justice, I might be inclined to adjust some of my weights (to make sure they adequately reflect which keyboards I like) if you throw in some of these current versions...
[edit]
random thought -- the european keys on the right side should have some nice English defaults:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9d2b85b4d8c1d471b83506c3e744deb7
Though I'm not sure how to show this nicely.
Last edited by a moderator:
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
There are two versions of this keyboard floating around. One with Insert on Fn+Space and one with backspace on Fn+space.Oh no! You moved one of the least important keys (`~) closer to the thumb from my version. Sad day! Interesting, though, to put backspace on space; it is a very important key to need, so it might be nice to have a big target
As for justice, I might be inclined to adjust some of my weights (to make sure they adequately reflect which keyboards I like) if you throw in some of these current versions...
[edit]
random thought -- the european keys on the right side should have some nice English defaults:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/9d2b85b4d8c1d471b83506c3e744deb7
Though I'm not sure how to show this nicely.
The main one in consideration has a _wb_ modification to put del and backspace on the game pad area and places insert at Fn+space. I feel this is acceptable. The keyboard that was linked in my message quoted by you DOES have a dedicated backspace and insert is at Fn+space.
Now the modified version that you created and provided a fresh link to - that one has two backspaces in it. It attempts to 'cover up' and mask the 'foreign stuff'.
Here's a question I posit to you on that. Why would we need to cover up the German alphabet on this international device that is designed and built in Germany? English is NOT compromised at all by the presence of the German letters. There is still a dedicated backspace, dedicated tab, all common top level symbol keys are on the top level. It makes no compromise to English or German. French and many others are very well supported as well. I don't think it should be necessary to apologize or hide that fact.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/dce234b8e47d9a029c4467ca140b4b7c
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
Updated version:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Removed the Greek & Math crap key.
Re-added the additional German and Spanish keys that _wb_ had removed. I just noticed that he'd stripped those out - not sure why.
Fixed the silly formatting overkill that had crept in.
I decided that I do like the idea of Delete and Backspace on the game pad and Insert on Fn+space because Insert is the less used key.
I also added this one to the matrix - replaced the previous 'new' version actually, though it doesn't score well for those of you who crazy weighted 'Numbers on top layer'. It scores very well for everything but numbers and 'clutter'.
No apologies or concessions for German use while not infringing on English use. It is a 29 letter keyboard.
P+, L+2 and M+3 are all preserved with P+1 and L+2 mapped as German+.
Contiguous F1-F12.
F1-F12 and numbers all available on the lockable Fn layer together for gaming - which is a prime usage case for this device. Should be fantastic in FPS and (M)MORPG games.
Enjoy!
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Removed the Greek & Math crap key.
Re-added the additional German and Spanish keys that _wb_ had removed. I just noticed that he'd stripped those out - not sure why.
Fixed the silly formatting overkill that had crept in.
I decided that I do like the idea of Delete and Backspace on the game pad and Insert on Fn+space because Insert is the less used key.
I also added this one to the matrix - replaced the previous 'new' version actually, though it doesn't score well for those of you who crazy weighted 'Numbers on top layer'. It scores very well for everything but numbers and 'clutter'.
No apologies or concessions for German use while not infringing on English use. It is a 29 letter keyboard.
P+, L+2 and M+3 are all preserved with P+1 and L+2 mapped as German+.
Contiguous F1-F12.
F1-F12 and numbers all available on the lockable Fn layer together for gaming - which is a prime usage case for this device. Should be fantastic in FPS and (M)MORPG games.
Enjoy!
comradekingu
Glowing ember
We would need to not have german letters on the default keymat, because even though the german market is big, the english market is bigger.
English users are laregely monolingual, even bilingual and multi-lingual users dont want to see non A-Z letters, unless its a specific keymat they ordered to have it work in their main language.
The detriment to english users, is they expect other keys to be in this place.
The solution is not to have symbols often used in english, but rather things you can swap out easily.
Check out librem 13
Belgian canadian danish dutch english finnish french german italian norwegian are the main and probable things that can be had in this way.
English users are laregely monolingual, even bilingual and multi-lingual users dont want to see non A-Z letters, unless its a specific keymat they ordered to have it work in their main language.
The detriment to english users, is they expect other keys to be in this place.
The solution is not to have symbols often used in english, but rather things you can swap out easily.
Check out librem 13
Belgian canadian danish dutch english finnish french german italian norwegian are the main and probable things that can be had in this way.
ible
professional vim user
what ck said. i'd prefer not to have three dedicated, premium-location keys on the keyboard which I wouldn't use at all. of course they can be remapped, but i think it'd be nice to have a sensible english mapping for them from the start.
oops, sorry about commenting on the wrong layout. i like how the hardware key gets "masked" when putting into the Fn-locked mode. (so you wouldn't accidentally pull up the hardware menu when gaming.) but yeah, it starts to look cluttered IMO when you have 3 labels on stuff below the top row.
while i have an initial aversion to delete and backspace on the +/- game keys, I think I could get used to it.
[edit]
I think this looks a bit nicer than my old one, in terms of how the english maps get placed on, but YMMV:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6664aa09ec457798ce4266d0634fb53a
oops, sorry about commenting on the wrong layout. i like how the hardware key gets "masked" when putting into the Fn-locked mode. (so you wouldn't accidentally pull up the hardware menu when gaming.) but yeah, it starts to look cluttered IMO when you have 3 labels on stuff below the top row.
while i have an initial aversion to delete and backspace on the +/- game keys, I think I could get used to it.
[edit]
I think this looks a bit nicer than my old one, in terms of how the english maps get placed on, but YMMV:
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6664aa09ec457798ce4266d0634fb53a
Last edited by a moderator:
Caine
Hardcore Member
I don't really care about non-english characters. Catering to non-English use is great, but sacrificing three buttons (P+1, L+1, L+2) for it goes way to far for me.
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
Looks like ED will be finalising[1] the keyboard layout VERY SOON! Can we get this thread to 100 pages of pointless indecisive waffle in time? Get cracking folks!
[1] By which I mean "ignoring the keyboard threads and doing what he wants to do anyway", which is right and proper.
D.
[1] By which I mean "ignoring the keyboard threads and doing what he wants to do anyway", which is right and proper.
D.
Last edited by a moderator:
codifies
Very Active Member
- Joined
- Sep 29, 2014
- Messages
- 360
I fully expected it to reach at least 100 pages before now - frankly I'm disappointed with the lot of you!
For ED's sake I hope he just skims the actual layouts and ignores the rest...
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
Lots of panic, no substance.
There IS no sacrifice to make it happen. THAT is the beauty of this. ALL of the standard keys for English use ARE mapped in very usable and logical fashion.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Pain and sacrifice to get those 3 keys? Please detail what that pain is or what was sacrificed. It's ALL there.
The real issue that this is going to run into is that there are people who see something (anything) unfamiliar and immediately panic, run in circles and scream about how painful it is to "give up" 3 keys. BUT - they aren't actually giving anything up. IT IS ALL THERE.
Now consider gaming use. Those 3 keys are IDEAL for mapping in-game macros to. They're right there where they're easy to get to off of the right thumb gaming area. It turns our 6 button game pad into effectively 9.
So, please detail exactly WHAT was sacrificed or HOW it is causing you pain to allow the people who created the device (German), use it in their native language efficiently?
English is NOT compromised. In this case, neither is German.
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
Dear god no. Weren't we supposed to be getting a nice row of number keys?
That layout's shite, mate.
D.
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
With the numbers on the Fn layer, you may see a flaw at first glance, but it's actually a beneficial and real feature.
Numbers are not only there, but they're non-duplicated and on the same Fn layer as the F1-F12 buttons - which is a HUGE bonus for FPS and (M)MORPG gaming. On this layout, if you press both the shoulder and keyboard Fn buttons together, it flips the keyboard area into Fn-lock mode. This means you instantly have a full number row and a full F1-F12 row on top and quick to access during game play. Switching back and forth is easy.
Numbers are there, present and accounted for. Putting them on the Fn layer means that there are plenty of keys for the symbol keys and even 3 for uncompromised German to be present on the same keyboard.
It's possible. It's highly efficient for gaming. It is MORE efficient for typing in English than 'numbers on top of top row' layouts because it has 'symbols on top of bottom row'. German is present without compromising English or having to apologize for the German letters getting 2nd class treatment.
This is easy to use, more efficient, more capable and -better- than having, 'numbers on top of top row'.
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
Nope. Numbers need to be unshifted. Can't type line numbers as a stream-of-consciousness type thing when coding if you have to keep banging the function key before you type each line of code.
Honestly, I can't see why we don't just use the same layout as the original Pandora. We all know that one by now.
D.
Honestly, I can't see why we don't just use the same layout as the original Pandora. We all know that one by now.
D.
Grench
Forum Addict!
- Joined
- Oct 3, 2008
- Messages
- 6,629
Ahh - a coder then. You have a choice of two of three sets to have behind the Fn layer.
1. Numbers, which can be all in a neat and easily to find line.
2. F1-F12, which nobody has argued should be 'forward' or 'top' layer.
3. The symbol keys. `~ [{ ]} \| ,< .> /?
On the Pandora the F1-F12 and the majority of the symbol keys were on the Fn/Meta layer. The symbol key pairs were also broken - which caused a compatibility issue with certain types of software (Example DosBox) that count on shift+[ to result in {. Now we know - and can build a better layout to avoid that issue entirely.
In your coding, which do you use more? Numbers or symbols? All of those times you had to go into the Fn/Meta layer on the Pandora and sift through the randomly arranged symbols on the Fn/Meta/Blue layer of the keys to find the right symbol... The symbols don't have a strict order that makes them easy to find on the Fn/Meta layer. Numbers do.
Symbols are used more often than Numbers. Numbers are easier to find on the Fn/Meta layer than symbols are. By having symbols on dedicated keys, it opens them up as dead keys for easy diacritics, which keeps them from having to be blatantly mapped over the top of other keys. This leads to broader language support including the most common letters of the German alphabet being where they're supposed to be for the Germans - who are building this for the rest of us - and to do so without compromising English.
Modern coding relies more on symbols <>[]{};'"`~ than it does on numbers. If you're hand writing line numbers in coding though... Are you coding in Basic? Fortran?
If not, then the symbols being top side are actually more important than numbers.
Now, all that said, the numbers are very easy to get to. Note that Fn is duplicated on both the keyboard AND a shoulder button. It works just like a shift key. Hold it down with one digit and select the symbols with another. Writing a long line of numbers? That's easy too - hit both Fn keys at the same time then the numbers and F1-F12 are all 'top side' and can be typed without touching Fn. Need a symbol or letter in the middle of your numbers? Easy. When Fn-locked, press either Fn button to temporarily un-Fn the keyboard. This works just like using shift on a Caps-lock activated keyboard.
Speaking of which, shift+shift = shiftlock. Slightly different from capslock in that it shifts the entire keyboard and holds it there. This is activated by pressing shift+shift.
This design is insanely flexible and should be very efficient, but you would have to get past the knee jerk response over the numbers row being on the Fn layer. They weren't put there on a whim. Yes, it is a slight trade off, but the benefits that are gained are pretty darn cool if I say so myself.
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
Picture yourself actually using it. Consider the coding efficiency gains of having the symbols on top.
Then there is gaming.
FPS/MORPG? Lock the Fn layer top and have contiguous numbers AND F1-F12 'locked' to the active/top layer of the keyboard.
But I'm not German... what do I do with those other 3 keys?
You don't -have- to do -anything- with them. BUT - if you're so inclined, there is nothing that says you cannot map them to OS or application macros and functions and/or use them as another 3 game pad buttons. Wait - what? 3 more game pad buttons on the right?
http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ee8d3bc8b446f99c027105d3810f8d07
⌦C ⇞Y
⇤A ⇥B
⌫Z ⇟X
Ü
Ö Ä
Note - that makes 9 buttons easily available for the right game pad area, all aligned for easy use.
This can work, it has piles of bonuses and benefits.
Saber
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,303
I'm not a coder but I think the Pyra becomes a more universal device to many more people if the numbers are on the top layer rather than behind modifier(s).
ZXDunny
Deep avatar
- Joined
- Oct 12, 2010
- Messages
- 2,585
BASIC, of course. I write a lot of that on the Pandora, so of course it's more important to me that the number keys are most easily accessible. I do agree that sometimes the Pandora symbols were not logically laid out, but once learned I don't even have to look at the keyboard anymore.
The best argument for a number row is the post above; that it will be more readily accessible to people that expect there to be a row of numbers. Are there any devices out there (aside from GBA, NDS et al) that don't have a row of numbers? Those that have a proper qwerty keyboard that is.
And not phones, before anyone pipes up
D.
The best argument for a number row is the post above; that it will be more readily accessible to people that expect there to be a row of numbers. Are there any devices out there (aside from GBA, NDS et al) that don't have a row of numbers? Those that have a proper qwerty keyboard that is.
And not phones, before anyone pipes up
D.
Saber
Advanced Member
- Joined
- Jan 23, 2012
- Messages
- 1,303
BASIC, of course. I write a lot of that on the Pandora, so of course it's more important to me that the number keys are most easily accessible. I do agree that sometimes the Pandora symbols were not logically laid out, but once learned I don't even have to look at the keyboard anymore.
The best argument for a number row is the post above; that it will be more readily accessible to people that expect there to be a row of numbers. Are there any devices out there (aside from GBA, NDS et al) that don't have a row of numbers? Those that have a proper qwerty keyboard that is.
And not phones, before anyone pipes up
D.
