It's the keyboard layout.

[_jr_]

Enter broken record: double width space is restricting possibilities well beyond its utility (especially in that position). I could live with numbers and F keys being on a shifted layer, though I would prefer a separate modifier for that (comradekingu's F-ing key). But I think moving Enter and Backspace to the action key area should also be considered.


edit: on second thought ... relegating the numbers frees up enough keys that one non standard modifer is more than enough, doesn't it?

 

[MrConfusion]

Enter broken record: double width space is restricting possibilities well beyond its utility (especially in that position). I could live with numbers and F keys being on a shifted layer, though I would prefer a separate modifier for that (comradekingu's F-ing key). But I think moving Enter and Backspace to the action key area should also be considered.

As I've said before: My Pandora has Y-"action" button as space and X-"action" button as enter. And really, for computer games it works like a charm, since often especially space is used for something like "use a bomb" or whatever. Enter is common in simulators as "switch weapon" or "use secondary weapon". And I iced the cake with Fn-Y being numpad+ (increase throttle) and Fn-X being numpad- (decrease throttle).

Plus these enter and space are easy to hit. A negative side is, of course, not having the regular PageUp and PageDown on those keys. I use Fn-Up and Fn-Down which is "OK", but sometimes it would be kind of nice to have a "one button" PageDown - try eating a pitakebab while skimming ycombinator and you'll soon see the point... been there, done that... and the laundry... ;-).

 

[Eight Bit]

Please mind it's still a work in progress on which I need to ponder a bit more but I already pasted it here for people to comment on the concept.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/ccc681ed214dbace6a4ef22fe8019c98

It has a phone block, an F-key block, a math block in the middle, All standard US keyboard keys and some extra Diacritics.

i particularly like the ease with which can be alt-tabbed on this layout.

 

[WizardStan]

Grench tried that. No one liked it. It's scary.

 

[Eight Bit]

Grench tried that. No one liked it. It's scary.

I looked at those, they're quite different.

Like this one from Grench for instance http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6ea72dff66f737f4623eb474a9279b26 ?

I'll make a pic with zone overlay to clear it up later on

 

[Saber]

Because if everyone else expects , and . as primary functions on dedicated keys, swapping it out with their alphabet or other keys, is suboptimal. Making the default less standard, and the practice of getting full support rather pointless. The whole idea behind having all letters is because its more efficient, doing away with comma and dot reverts that back to in-efficient.

As obvious as a nose on a face. It's not like anyone sane officially involved here would seriously pander to a construct of putting comma and period behind Shift. 

 

[comradekingu]

That was the point that wasn't the point. The issue is having dedicated letters and punctuation for as many as possible.

 

[Grench]

Grench tried that. No one liked it. It's scary.

I looked at those, they're quite different.

Like this one from Grench for instance http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6ea72dff66f737f4623eb474a9279b26 ?

I'll make a pic with zone overlay to clear it up later on

I think what he was referencing was this (or one of the others I made that were similar):

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bfdcc505a5c17010abde7f54163b6104

Knowing what we know now, either of those would need some considerable clean-up and modifications.

Still, they're concepts - if we find something we like in them we can do some work on them and see where they go.

If your objective is to make a layout that is the most flexible for gaming, this one is probably a great place to start:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6ea72dff66f737f4623eb474a9279b26

It would need some re-work to incorporate what we all learned about language support.

 

[Eight Bit]

Ok, so I know so many keyboards have been made already but this afternoon I thought about trying this idea out and so I did.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7124b7c51d020d3a296a084142c7210

It might look intimidating at first but there's a logic in there of course. To make it clear I colored the zones.

First of all, the main layer.

Qwerty without the numbers freeing up the bottom row. Most standard shifted pairs are there, except +/= , -/_  as they are in the meta'd calc/math block already, and all the shifted digit signs ofcourse. Most of those I tried to put in a logical order but had to sacrifice some positions to get the zones together.

I really like the fact that Alt-Tab is a thumb-mash in this lay-out and also the ! and @ on the main layer are growing on me. Maybe some stuff on the bottom row has to be or can be shuffled around. If I or someone else think of something to make it better I'll alter it.

Yellow.

It's a standard keyblock for mobile phones.  1 through 0 with * and #

All digits easily accessible with the right hand. I tried it on my Pandora, I think I could type in phone numbers blindfolded if there'd be a mark on the 5 (which happens to be on the same key as the J too)

Green + yellow

Calculator/math block

The +, -, =, %, Sqr are sort of- in line with the * from the phone keyblock. I can imagine some dedicated pyra calculator software that would work real well with the keyboard lay-out.

Also Hexadecimal should be very easily accessible as the $ is next to the # on the other side of the phone keyblock. I'm just fantasizing about binding opcodes to the F keys and code assembly like that.

Blue

Fn Key block

I guess these can be used in some sort of calculator mode too for functions as Sin Cos Tan Log etc. but they're mainly just all 12 F keys, accessible with the left hand.

Purple

Language support/(Dead)Diacritics,

I still think most letters can be made utilizing dead diacritics without too much effort.éèáúâûôäüöïñç and many others can be typed by doing Fn+Diacritic followed by the letter. Then there's ß ofcourse. Any other combinations can be made with compose I guess.

Then the modifiers:

I've put 3x Meta modifiers in there. I think it's an important enough key in this layout.

2 Shifts, 2 Alts and 2 Ctrl's though.

Ponder on this layout, let it sink in and imagine yourself typing in a phone number, some lines of code or an email to your partner.

 

[Grench]

Ok, so I know so many keyboards have been made already but this afternoon I thought about trying this idea out and so I did.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7124b7c51d020d3a296a084142c7210

...

Ponder on this layout, let it sink in and imagine yourself typing in a phone number, some lines of code or an email to your partner.

That looks familiar to the very first layout I did.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=352638

You might want to read through the comments that it generated.

Learning Highlights:

Fn keys on a keyboard run in sets of 4, not 3.

Phone number pads have 1 in the top left.  Computer keypads have it in the lower left.

Layout breaks symbol pairs - fails DosBox compliance.

Maybe I'll have to make an updated version of this style to match up to what I've learned over the last few months in this process.

 

[Eight Bit]

Ok, so I know so many keyboards have been made already but this afternoon I thought about trying this idea out and so I did.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/d7124b7c51d020d3a296a084142c7210

...

Ponder on this layout, let it sink in and imagine yourself typing in a phone number, some lines of code or an email to your partner.

That looks familiar to the very first layout I did.

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=352638

You might want to read through the comments that it generated.

Learning Highlights:

Fn keys on a keyboard run in sets of 4, not 3.

Phone number pads have 1 in the top left.  Computer keypads have it in the lower left.

Layout breaks symbol pairs - fails DosBox compliance.

Maybe I'll have to make an updated version of this style to match up to what I've learned over the last few months in this process.

Ah yes,

I remember that derailed thread now

Tbh, reading back a lot of people are positive towards your concept. So am I, after being busy with my own version which had already sort-of been done apparently

With so many keyboards and concepts around, maybe we should end this and make some sort of list with which concepts there are.

We categorize the nominated keyboards (maybe max 3 per person?) and go through a first vote per category. Just a page with screenshots so that people can take their time to look and compare the nominees.

Once each category has a winner there's gonna be another vote for the winning category. Which will be the one presented to Ed as the community choice.

Something like that? Any takers for organizing that? *wink*

For me, when judging or designing a layout It just feels better when there's a system I can grasp if you know what I mean.

It doesn't have to be something I already know as long as I get the idea behind it. I learn quick.

I want the layout to be usefull, multifunctional yet clear and obvious.  so yeah, it's a phone style number block, mirrored to a F1 to F12 block by 3. For me it seems no more than obvious to do it that way with what was given. To you too apparently as you did it by 3 the first time too.  

Pyra is not gonna be any standard but it's own anyway so why ignore the impulse that tells us to do it different than the standard?

This last setup I made, for me feels okay, I'm not completely happy with the bottom row yet, it can maybe be made more efficient but that would make me have to break more shifted pairs, breaking a standard

But as ever, I will ponder on trying to come up with better ideas or ways to improve until a final call is made

 

[Grench]

English, German, French, Spanish - likely others.  No apologies for, "that fereign langage shtuff."

English and German are 'uncompromised' with exception of German YZ switch hasn't been done to English layout.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/a0ee7c5c3145fa3dd92ecf2bdb5eaaac

More information:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=386623

 

[_wb_]

Here is a "_wb_ approved" version of the above Grench proposal and comments from _jr_:

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/961b8681640081a1c23586a3d3ed07fe

English, German, French, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, Dutch without compromises. Spanish, Danish, Portuguese, Italian with minimal compromises.

More info:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/page-12#entry386649

 

[alanjf]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/961b8681640081a1c23586a3d3ed07fe

Ok I really mean no offense, but this is really getting absurd. It looked like we were making a LOT of real progress here with layouts similar to

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/6fcb32a81f5afe891b8e5d66e402e476

or

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/bcb0a44b3ad7a399117c436f7266b0a8

but how it seems, with the layouts above, we've taken some big steps backwards.

That's not to say the latest _wb_ layout is bad. At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

Also, What are the the diagonal arrows the game keys (next to pg up/down and home/end) ? I've never seen anything like that on any keyboard and I think Ins and Del are far better of off being there with their typical Home/End/Pg brethren.

 

[_wb_]

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/961b8681640081a1c23586a3d3ed07fe

Also, What are the the diagonal arrows the game keys (next to pg up/down and home/end) ? I've never seen anything like that on any keyboard and I think Ins and Del are far better of off being there with their typical Home/End/Pg brethren.

The new (smaller) game buttons are Home/End, the Pandora A and B are Delete and Backspace. I admit it's a rather unorthodox layout proposal, but it has surprisingly many advantages.

 

[comradekingu]

If your option is letters behind something, then numbers behind something is preferable. As always, nice progression.

 

[_jr_]

Having QWERTY on the top row would work slightly better if the rows were 12/11/12/11 instead of 11/12/11/12, I think.

 

[WizardStan]

At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's annoying to have numbers behind meta but it's also annoying to have punctuation and letters behind meta. It's not like Grench/_wb_ did that for kicks, it's a very legitimate tradeoff. It moves the numbers behind meta, but it brings a lot out at the same time. There's going to be compromises, this is a compromise that values punctuation and that P+1 L+2 bringing a lot of international support. It has a lot of practicality: I don't know if it would actually be good, I don't have to suffer the compose key on the Pandora to know what kind of hinderence this solves, but I do recognize a valid solution to a described problem and therefore a step forward. A step forward along a different path is still progress. If that path leads to a dead end then at least we can say it was tried. If the path dead ends and people keep pushing for it anyway then it's going to hinder progress but that's not the case yet.So embrace the quirky! A lot of very good ideas have been realized because someone did something seemingly counterintuitive.

Personally I don't like it, the P+1 L+2 looks like a waste to my bland English brain. On the other hand, that's three keys on the opposite of shift+meta ripe for remapping so maybe it is good. hmm

 

[Grench]

Here is a "_wb_ approved" version of the above Grench proposal and comments from _jr_:

And a "Grench approved" version of the "_wb_ approved" version of the Grench proposal - and they've gone plaid.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

Discussion and reasons for the above changes:

http://boards.openpandora.org/topic/16872-and-now-for-something-completely-different-keyboard-option/?p=386724

Maybe we're onto something? That or we're on something - I haven't decided which on this line of exploration.

 

[Grench]

At the very least numbers should be on their own row, top level. Having numbers behind Meta will be just as annoying for those of us that hate it when full size laptops put F-keys behind Fn.

I'm going to disagree. Yeah, it's annoying to have numbers behind meta but it's also annoying to have punctuation and letters behind meta. It's not like Grench/_wb_ did that for kicks, it's a very legitimate tradeoff. It moves the numbers behind meta, but it brings a lot out at the same time. There's going to be compromises, this is a compromise that values punctuation and that P+1 L+2 bringing a lot of international support. It has a lot of practicality: I don't know if it would actually be good, I don't have to suffer the compose key on the Pandora to know what kind of hinderence this solves, but I do recognize a valid solution to a described problem and therefore a step forward. A step forward along a different path is still progress. If that path leads to a dead end then at least we can say it was tried. If the path dead ends and people keep pushing for it anyway then it's going to hinder progress but that's not the case yet.So embrace the quirky! A lot of very good ideas have been realized because someone did something seemingly counterintuitive.

Personally I don't like it, the P+1 L+2 looks like a waste to my bland English brain. On the other hand, that's three keys on the opposite of shift+meta ripe for remapping so maybe it is good. hmm

Thank you everyone for giving this slightly off-the-wall idea a good shake. I had thought that the way everyone was showing hate and disdain in the keyboard matrix, that this type of "Numbers on Fn layer" design was dead on arrival. I think it adds a lot of value -beyond- the international P+1 and L+2 and M+3 pieces though.

This layout should be AWESOME for games. Why? The ability to FnLock the numbers AND F1-F12 keys to the top at the same time and easily flip between those and alphabet by turning FnLock on/off. It's like having a true page-switching keyboard or two keyboards - one a dedicated gaming keyboard.

http://www.keyboard-layout-editor.com/#/layouts/40a26e58b7443876b0cfbaa172099d55

When I try to 'mentally use it', it comes out very favorably. The 'foreign stuff' looks like hot-key and macro mapping heaven to me.

The main drawback is going to be US ethnocentrism. Convincing people that they can ignore the foreign stuff might be an uphill battle. Yes, I'm in the US. But then, I acknowledge that I'm looking at an international multilingual device built in Germany for use in the greater part of the free world. To steal a quote, "We're all in this together."

Thanks for giving it a good think-through.